TURNING POINT IN THE HISTORY OF INDIAN SUBCONTINENT

[Bang Galore]

Actually the Rig Vedic conflicts were between the Vedic peoples and the Iranic peoples to their west. As is well known the meaning attached to the terms Ahura/Asura, Deva and Dasa are quite opposite in the two cultures.

I'm aware that is what a reading of Rg veda suggests but I was making the point that even if there were other instances, it would be incorrect to assume that one was an invader & the other indigenous. Tribal conflicts with settlers happens even today. It would not be logical to assume that the group in conflict with the tribals today were necessarily foreigners of recent occurrence. Even more odd would be the suggestion often made, that the "Aryans" pushed the indigenous "Dravidian" population down south where the evidence of that period shows only neolithic culture. It would be a stretch to assume that the highly urbanised Harappan people would suddenly give that all up & go back to being stone age people.

 

[Hellraiser007]

The pat should not be forgotten,but lets not allow it breed more hatred without new reasons thats all i say.
@hellraiser.Routed means defeated not captured.

They are two different things.

Rout = A disorderly retreat or flight following defeat (which will lead the enemy ranks to chaos and confusion and which will give the winner to capture or annihilate the routed army personnel)

Get your facts right.

 

[Hellraiser007]

Again a display of ignorance.

Those regions of Afghanistan, "some regions of Afghanistan", actually encompassed the whole of Afghanistan, which was then the Persian provinces of Arachosia, Sogdiana and Bactria. In fact, these went beyond the present boundaries of Afghanistan, so I fail to understand why "some regions" is used.

Second, he also conquered the entire Indus Valley, unless you have decided that the Indus Valley is Afghanistan.

Third, far from losing it, the Greeks set up the Bactrian Greek kingdoms, which gave India Gandhara art and sculpture, and also the art of theatre.

Fourth, your ignorance mounts - or descends - from peak to peak. The Great Persian Empire attacked European Greece twice. The first time, after penetrating the Greek outer kingdoms of Thrace and Macedonia, the Persian general Mardonius lost his ships in a storm off Mount Athos, and retired in disarray. This was in 490 BC. The second time, Datis and Artaphernes took the attack forward, met initial successes earlier, then got a bloody nose from the Athenians at Marathon and retired - in disarray. That was 492 BC. Emperor Darius then gave it up as a bad joke, but Xerxes took up the unfinished agenda in his turn in 480 BC and mounted a massive invasion. This time, the Persians crushed the Spartans at Thermopylae, captured Athens but lost their fleet at the very well-fought battle of Salamis. After Salamis, the Greeks fought the best battle of the campaign at Plataea, and that was the end of the game for the Persians.

The conflict started with the burning of Sardis by Ionian Greeks, and ended with Alexander demolishing the Persian Empire.

Why do you always try to distort history to make your political points?

Your Ignorance at its best, What your are quoting is the western twisted history on Alexander conquest which are not entirely true .
Alexander Never controlled the North West region of India it is not IVC. There are lot of studies went into this western twisted history. This guy made some peace pacts with King Purushottam and went back to Greece.

I am quoting facts not distorting.

 

[Developereo]

This is entirely the wrong idea ... the growth of Dharma inside India was as organic as the spread of Dharma to peoples beyond India. As mentioned earlier -



Caste doesn't come into the picture.

There was indeed a system of Varnas which was meant to be based, not on heredity, but on an individual's state of evolution (let's avoid going too deep into the philosophy). Later, it became rigid and got mixed up with the concept of Jati or caste, which was a guild-like occupation based institution. There are passages in the Mahabharata, for instance, admonishing against the rigidity that was creeping into the Varna system.

These social issues are not germane to the growth of Dharma, it is not as if Dharma was imposed by the sword to keep people at the bottom of a hierarchy.

I am sorry, but you are just repeating the party line which, as I explained, does not mesh with human nature. The caste system went hand-in-hand with the spread of Vedic culture. Why would large groups of humans voluntarily accept a subservient role mandated by religion?

Here's an interesting tidbit: do you know the Tamil name for the untouchable Dalits? It's Adi Dravida meaning Original natives or indigenous people of Dravida land

 

[Developereo]

True but that does not necessarily suggest that the "Aryans" did not exist alongside the tribals. The association of the tribals or "Dravidians" with the remnants of the IVC , if that is the connection being drawn, is not very sensible. The IVC culture was at the zenith of urbanisation(for its period). It would be extremely odd to suggest that such people, having been supposedly defeated by the "Aryans" would give up their urban culture & turn neolithic.

I think Joe was simply talking about the spread of Vedic culture onto non-Vedic peoples, regardless of the latter's background. The fact that it was not quite the campfire singalong that some claim it to be.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Yes Britishers have discovered these remains They have done some research but not all the facts they established are true.

Leave about Sangh parivar and all other extreme right groups, India needs to shed some light and needs to do some fact finding into these things.

British happened to be dominating the world at the time of advancements on archeology that does not mean India cannot do it.

If this land is blessed with such culture and achievements nothing wrong in acknowledging those facts.

Unfortunately, not being either a student of history, or an historian, but being reduced to pick up factoids from party hacks, you are unaware of the HUGE number of Indians currently and in the recent past who have conducted studies into these and other historical issues. It is a common mistake for Sangh Parivar enthusiasts to assume that between the writings of British historians, archaeologists, anthropologists, sociologists, numismatists, epigraphers and architectural experts and today, that there is nothing. How ignorant can you be of your own country's work in these areas?

 

[Joe Shearer]

I was replying to your post in which you undermined prithvi's achievement saying he was defeated after first battle of Tarrain.

Fact is routing gives the opportunity to capture enemy generals and kings. So there is a high level chance of capturing Ghori and his generals.

Read your earlier comments and apply my reply properly, This is related to your perception nothing to do with my studies.

Your evaluation remains faulty, and deserves the remarks made about your lack of study. A rout does not have anything to do with the capture of the enemy commander. The two are distinct events. For your information, against a court singer who went on to depict hugely exaggerated accounts of his beloved master, whose account is the only source for the supposed capture and pardon of Ghori, we have a number of graphic accounts of the defeated general being escorted off the battlefield by his aides. Why is it that in your mind a rout demands that the enemy commander thus routed should be captured, and that he cannot have been escorted off? Your joining the two is nonsensical.

 

[Hellraiser007]

Unfortunately, not being either a student of history, or an historian, but being reduced to pick up factoids from party hacks, you are unaware of the HUGE number of Indians currently and in the recent past who have conducted studies into these and other historical issues. It is a common mistake for Sangh Parivar enthusiasts to assume that between the writings of British historians, archaeologists, anthropologists, sociologists, numismatists, epigraphers and architectural experts and today, that there is nothing. How ignorant can you be of your own country's work in these areas?

Did I said Indians did not do research into this, I only said India needs to concentrate in this more. Wrong conclusion from you.

I think Joe was simply talking about the spread of Vedic culture onto non-Vedic peoples, regardless of the latter's background. The fact that it was not quite the campfire singalong that some claim it to be.

Vedic culture is indigenous to Gangetic plains in India but South India is a completely different story.

 

[Hellraiser007]

Your evaluation remains faulty, and deserves the remarks made about your lack of study. A rout does not have anything to do with the capture of the enemy commander. The two are distinct events. For your information, against a court singer who went on to depict hugely exaggerated accounts of his beloved master, whose account is the only source for the supposed capture and pardon of Ghori, we have a number of graphic accounts of the defeated general being escorted off the battlefield by his aides. Why is it that in your mind a rout demands that the enemy commander thus routed should be captured, and that he cannot have been escorted off? Your joining the two is nonsensical.

I am reminding you that Rout and defeat are two different things and Rout also gives chance to capture Enemies and so this victory is no less achievement, Remaining argument from you makes no sense.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Your Ignorance at its best, What your are quoting is the western twisted history on Alexander conquest which are not entirely true .
Alexander Never controlled the North West region of India it is not IVC. There are lot of studies went into this western twisted history. This guy made some peace pacts with King Purushottam and went back to Greece.

I am quoting facts not distorting.

There is not a SINGLE piece of historical evidence backing your fanciful version. There are four versions giving a detailed account of his descent from the mountains, the capture of the Rock of Aornos, of several other triumphs by siege and capture of the cities of the Assacenoi, his battle with Porus, his arrangements after the battle, and his progression down the Indus, the location of the IVC, down to the sea near Karachi.

I can cite each and every one of my sources, and the world knows this to be true. It is only a handful of idiot revisionists, who think that by converting every piece of historical evidence to read as an Indian victory, they somehow make up for the defeats that actually occurred. It is juvenile to think that forcing an account where none exists, that using a court poet's account in preference to that of several historical narrators, that using internal literary evidence against long-established linguistic studies which have been validated a dozen times over in completely different circumstances, you have managed to add glory to India's past. That past does not need your efforts at concocting history, and you are only making yourself and India look ridiculous.

Probably not what you set out to do, but something that you have managed with effortless ease.

 

[Bang Galore]

I think Joe was simply talking about the spread of Vedic culture onto non-Vedic peoples, regardless of the latter's background. The fact that it was not quite the campfire singalong that some claim it to be.

Yeah and I was making the point that tribals still exist today, largely doing their own thing & still not necessarily integrated into mainstream Hindu society.. So who exactly was converted?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Did I said Indians did not do research into this, I only said India needs to concentrate in this more. Wrong conclusion from you.



Vedic culture is indigenous to Gangetic plains in India but South India is a completely different story.

Your wording gives you away. You were under the impression that nobody has written history from the Indian point of view. In fact there is more than ninety years' history that has been written, and it is time that you caught up with it.

 

[Developereo]

Vedic culture is indigenous to Gangetic plains in India but South India is a completely different story.

But you understand that the Vedas did not spring out of thin air all over India? They radiated out of one area onto North India first, and then beyond.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I am reminding you that Rout and defeat are two different things and Rout also gives chance to capture Enemies and so this victory is no less achievement, Remaining argument from you makes no sense.

Complete rubbish. There is no formal military definition of what is a rout and what is a defeat, so you might as well stop thumbing your dictionary to find ways to create what never happened. Even a defeat, for that matter, even a victory can lead to the death or capture of the victorious commander. That has nothing to do with the progress of the battle, and has everything to do with the chances of war.

Actually the Rig Vedic conflicts were between the Vedic peoples and the Iranic peoples to their west. As is well known the meanings attached to the terms Ahura/Asura, Deva and Dasa are quite opposite in the two cultures.

I was wondering when Dr. Elst would make his appearance.

 

[Developereo]

Yeah and I was making the point that tribals still exist today, largely doing their own thing & still not necessarily integrated into mainstream Hindu society.. So who exactly was converted?

The rest of the population. Nobody disputes that Vedic culture spread throughout India from some starting point. The only area of contention is how it spread.