TURNING POINT IN THE HISTORY OF INDIAN SUBCONTINENT

[Hellraiser007]

Be careful. You are taking on a very compliicated class.

It will not change the fact that Brahmin was not a race and During the centuries of our history lot of Distortions happened and lot of evil practices were incorporated.

 

[Developereo]

That, surprisingly for me to read from its source, is precisely correct.

However, it relates to the cultural part of the overpowering. There is a good part and a bad part to this. The good part is that the multi-centered nature of cultural development has its own importance in cementing together cultural India, whether or not political India was able to keep pace. The bad part is that the process of disseminating the 'high' culture has become, which it need not have become, a zero sum game. So a successful dissemination - the technical word is Sanskritisation - becomes an instance of the cultural disenfranchisement of another, pre-existing culture. It is available for the witnessing all around us. If a location is provided, the nearest example to go and view can be provided.

I believe these are two different concepts.

What you are describing, the pan-Indian contributions to Hinduism, are akin to the advent of Protestantism or Sufism. These happened within the faith by people who were already converts.

The part I am talking about is the initial introduction of the belief system into virgin territory. There is no objective documentation on how that happened for non-Abrahamic faiths because it is lost in antiquity and whatever we have is written by the (cultural) victors.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Can be taught in schools but need to be careful lest it can degenerate into anti-brahminism culture which sprouted out in TN in the last century.

I agree that it got extreme and got polemicized but I also believe that you should take into account the centuries of horrific exploitation that took place before this social revolution. In balance, Tamilians are better off without the deadening influence of the 2% of the master race, than they were before.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Alexander Conquests in Subcontinent are hugely Biased ones, He only conquered Persian Empire and some regions of Afghanistan that to Greeks failed to hold them soon after his death.
West always glorifies Alexander and his conquests as he is a symbol of West domination on East. Where as they fail to acknowledge Great Persian empire who repeatedly ravaged Greece.

Again a display of ignorance.

Those regions of Afghanistan, "some regions of Afghanistan", actually encompassed the whole of Afghanistan, which was then the Persian provinces of Arachosia, Sogdiana and Bactria. In fact, these went beyond the present boundaries of Afghanistan, so I fail to understand why "some regions" is used.

Second, he also conquered the entire Indus Valley, unless you have decided that the Indus Valley is Afghanistan.

Third, far from losing it, the Greeks set up the Bactrian Greek kingdoms, which gave India Gandhara art and sculpture, and also the art of theatre.

Fourth, your ignorance mounts - or descends - from peak to peak. The Great Persian Empire attacked European Greece twice. The first time, after penetrating the Greek outer kingdoms of Thrace and Macedonia, the Persian general Mardonius lost his ships in a storm off Mount Athos, and retired in disarray. This was in 490 BC. The second time, Datis and Artaphernes took the attack forward, met initial successes earlier, then got a bloody nose from the Athenians at Marathon and retired - in disarray. That was 492 BC. Emperor Darius then gave it up as a bad joke, but Xerxes took up the unfinished agenda in his turn in 480 BC and mounted a massive invasion. This time, the Persians crushed the Spartans at Thermopylae, captured Athens but lost their fleet at the very well-fought battle of Salamis. After Salamis, the Greeks fought the best battle of the campaign at Plataea, and that was the end of the game for the Persians.

The conflict started with the burning of Sardis by Ionian Greeks, and ended with Alexander demolishing the Persian Empire.

Why do you always try to distort history to make your political points?

It was clearly mentioned that Ghori was routed and do even know what Routing means??

Don't try to stupid and try to make wrong conclusion based on it.

Yes, I know what a rout means. You seem to think that it means that the enemy commander is captured. It does not mean that. So you should finish your studies before starting to comment.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I believe these are two different concepts.

What you are describing, the pan-Indian contributions to Hinduism, are akin to the advent of Protestantism or Sufism. These happened within the faith by people who were already converts.

The part I am talking about is the initial introduction of the belief system into virgin territory. There is no objective documentation on how that happened for non-Abrahamic faiths because it is lost in antiquity and whatever we have is written by the (cultural) victors.

If we are to go by the evidence of the Rg Veda, and the exploits of Indra, it was pretty bloody. There are also clues throughout the Ramayana and the Mahabharata regarding the treatment of indigenous tribes, autochthones, at the hands of the kshatriyas, often at the instigation of their Brahmin spiritual guides and advisors.

 

[Developereo]

organic growth of Dharma in India

As I explained, the spread of Vedic culture went hand-in-hand with the caste system, which is custom made to give the ruling elite certain advantages over the masses. Now, if people want to believe that the masses willingly adopted castes which restricted their social and economic mobility, as well as their intellectual freedom, then I don't know what to say.

The likely reality is that the caste system had to be forced onto the people by their rulers. Ergo, the Vedic culture had to be forced.

It is worth noting that, as soon as they had the ability to exit the belief system which imposed the shackles of rigid casteism upon them, the lower castes voted themselves out of Hinduism and into Islam or Christianity.

 

[Joe Shearer]

In some aspects you are true but They always tried to undermine Indian culture and exploited the divisions in Indian society to Fullest. "Divide and conquer rule" they applied it to every aspect of India society.

They also happened to be the ones who discovered the remains of the Indus Valley Civilisation, the kinship of Sanskrit with other Indo-European languages, the monuments of Sanchi and Bodh Gaya, of Elephanta, Ajanta and Ellora, of the secrets of the Asokan pillars, the Brahmi script used on Asokan pillars, of a thousand and one points which are now part of the Sangh Parivar catechism.

 

[Joe Shearer]

As I explained, the spread of Vedic culture went hand-in-hand with the caste system, which is custom made to give the ruling elite certain advantages over the masses. Now, if people want to believe that the masses willingly adopted castes which restricted their social and economic mobility, as well as their intellectual freedom, then I don't know what to say.

The likely reality is that the caste system had to be forced onto the people by their rulers. Ergo, the Vedic culture had to be forced.

It is worth noting that, as soon as they had the ability to exit the belief system which imposed the shackles of rigid casteism upon them, the lower castes voted themselves out of Hinduism and into Islam or Christianity.

Buddhism. You forgot Buddhism, then and now. Most of Bangladesh took readily to Islam when their faith in Buddhism attracted hostile attention from Saivites. The Senas were particularly bigoted revisionists.

 

[Joe Shearer]

At this point, I bid Au Revoir to this discussion (NOT Adieu).

 

[Rig Vedic]

As I explained, the spread of Vedic culture went hand-in-hand with the caste system, which is custom made to give the ruling elite certain advantages over the masses. Now, if people want to believe that the masses willingly adopted castes which restricted their social and economic mobility, as well as their intellectual freedom, then I don't know what to say.

The likely reality is that the caste system had to be forced onto the people by their rulers. Ergo, the Vedic culture had to be forced.

It is worth noting that, as soon as they had the ability to exit the belief system which imposed the shackles of rigid casteism upon them, the lower castes voted themselves out of Hinduism and into Islam or Christianity.

This is entirely the wrong idea ... the growth of Dharma inside India was as organic as the spread of Dharma to peoples beyond India. As mentioned earlier -

Dharma spread in an organic way beyond India too. Consider how it was absorbed by Indonesia, Cambodia, China, Japan, Tibet etc.

And other peoples, such as Tibetans, have made important contributions to Yoga and Buddhism.

Central Asia also had a significant Dharmic presence before the advent of Islam. But now there is only the Russian Republic of Kalmykia that retains its Buddhist culture.

Caste doesn't come into the picture.

There was indeed a system of Varnas which was meant to be based, not on heredity, but on an individual's state of evolution (let's avoid going too deep into the philosophy). Later, it became rigid and got mixed up with the concept of Jati or caste, which was a guild-like occupation based institution. There are passages in the Mahabharata, for instance, admonishing against the rigidity that was creeping into the Varna system.

These social issues are not germane to the growth of Dharma, it is not as if Dharma was imposed by the sword to keep people at the bottom of a hierarchy.

 

[Bang Galore]

If we are to go by the evidence of the Rg Veda, and the exploits of Indra, it was pretty bloody. There are also clues throughout the Ramayana and the Mahabharata regarding the treatment of indigenous tribes, autochthones, at the hands of the kshatriyas, often at the instigation of their Brahmin spiritual guides and advisors.

True but that does not necessarily suggest that the "Aryans" did not exist alongside the tribals. The association of the tribals or "Dravidians" with the remnants of the IVC , if that is the connection being drawn, is not very sensible. The IVC culture was at the zenith of urbanisation(for its period). It would be extremely odd to suggest that such people, having been supposedly defeated by the "Aryans" would give up their urban culture & turn neolithic.

 

[Rig Vedic]

True but that does not necessarily suggest that the "Aryans" did not exist alongside the tribals. The association of the tribals or "Dravidians" with the remnants of the IVC , if that is the connection being drawn, is not very sensible. The IVC culture was at the zenith of urbanisation(for its period). It would be extremely odd to suggest that such people, having been supposedly defeated by the "Aryans" would give up their urban culture & turn neolithic.

Actually the Rig Vedic conflicts were between the Vedic peoples and the Iranic peoples to their west. As is well known the meanings attached to the terms Ahura/Asura, Deva and Dasa are quite opposite in the two cultures.

“In the Rg-Veda, the terms ‘Dasa’ and ‘Dasyu’, which are also known in ethnic meanings in Iranian languages, refer without any doubt to Iranians, i.e. fellow Indo-Europeans, whiter than or at least as white as the Vedic people. Not to Mundas or Dravidians. The Rg-Vedic Battle of the Ten Kings and Varshagira Battle (the first on the Ravi banks in West Panjab, the second beyond the Bolan Pass in southern Afghanistan, after the westward expansion rendered possible by Vedic kind Sudas's victory in the first battle), were very definitely between Iranians and Vedic Indo-Aryans. The second of these battles is also alluded to in the younger Avesta, where the same battle leaders are mentioned: Rjashva/Arjasp and Somaka/Humayaka on the Indian side, Vishtaspa/Ishtashva on the Iranian side. RV 1:122:13 mentions Ishtâshva, the Sanskrit form of Iranian "Vishtâspa", well-known as Zarathustra's royal patron: "What can Ishtâshva, Ishtarashmi or any other princes do against those who enjoy the protection (of Mitra and Varuna)?" Thus the interpretation of Sayana and SK Hodiwala, as reported by Shrikant Talageri, The Rigveda, a Historical Analysis, p.215-221, and also followed, at least in the names given, by HH Wilson and KF Geldner in their RV translations. It is a rare treat in studies of ancient literature when a single event is reported in two independent sources, which moreover represent the two opposing parties in the event.

source

 

[Hellraiser007]

They also happened to be the ones who discovered the remains of the Indus Valley Civilisation, the kinship of Sanskrit with other Indo-European languages, the monuments of Sanchi and Bodh Gaya, of Elephanta, Ajanta and Ellora, of the secrets of the Asokan pillars, the Brahmi script used on Asokan pillars, of a thousand and one points which are now part of the Sangh Parivar catechism.

Yes Britishers have discovered these remains They have done some research but not all the facts they established are true.

Leave about Sangh parivar and all other extreme right groups, India needs to shed some light and needs to do some fact finding into these things.

British happened to be dominating the world at the time of advancements on archeology that does not mean India cannot do it.

If this land is blessed with such culture and achievements nothing wrong in acknowledging those facts.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

The pat should not be forgotten,but lets not allow it breed more hatred without new reasons thats all i say.
@hellraiser.Routed means defeated not captured.

 

[Hellraiser007]

Yes, I know what a rout means. You seem to think that it means that the enemy commander is captured. It does not mean that. So you should finish your studies before starting to comment.

I was replying to your post in which you undermined prithvi's achievement saying he was defeated after first battle of Tarrain.

Fact is routing gives the opportunity to capture enemy generals and kings. So there is a high level chance of capturing Ghori and his generals.

Read your earlier comments and apply my reply properly, This is related to your perception nothing to do with my studies.