Afghanistan Bans Full Face Veils

[vsdoc]

Both are not mutually exclusive debates Asim, be that they may be temporally diverse.

Freedom to wear a piece of cloth when it comes to the veil sounds a lot like harking back to the days before India abolished child marriages.

At that time, you would be hard pressed to find a kid bride who would have the guts to stand up and say that it was not what she wanted. Sati savitri an all that. Freedom of a pre-pubescent kid to get married to an old fart with one foot in the grave. By divine decree and socially and religiously acceptable.

The veil for muslim women is no different. As long as modern society does not abolish it legally, it will be near impossible for a muslim girl to buck the trend.

She will then necessarily have to live with the veil as part of her "free choice."

After all, what are her alternatives? How about you being honest about that as a continuation of this debate .....

Fundamentally we have to always fall back upon that freedom is more important than security.

Famous American founding father Ben Franklin said:

Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.

Its funny you choose to quote a leader of a nation that has no compunctions about selectively stamping on the liberties of its own citizens when it suits them to do so.

I can quote examples. So can you I'm sure.

 

[Awesome]

Both are not mutually exclusive debates Asim, be that they may be temporally diverse.

But the fact that you have not chosen to highlight your concerns other than security shows some amount of intellectual dishonesty on your part. It's like "We got a good excuse, lets press on it".

Freedom to wear a piece of cloth when it comes to veil sounds a lot like harking back to the days before India abolished child marriages.

At that time, you would be hard pressed to find a kid bride who would have the guts to stand up and say that it was not what she wanted. Sati savitri an all that.

True but a woman - is not a child and has free voice by law. If that is being subdued, it is the government's responsibility to make sure that the law is upheld.

The veil for muslim women is no different. As long as modern society does not abolish it legally, it will be near impossible for a muslim girl to buck the trend.

Incorrect. Most women in Pakistani urban society don't wear even the hijab, but others who do get by and intermingle in society as normal.

She will then necessarily have to live with the veil as part of her "free choice."

On a case by case basis if you can prove this then well and good, send the police in. If you can't and the woman says she wants to wear it you're essentially saying "Shut up woman, you don't know what's good for you".

After all, what are her alternatives? How about you being honest about that as a continuation of this debate .....

Don't wear it, its been made open by law in 99% of all Islamic countries.

Its funny you choose to quote a leader of a nation that has no compunctions about selectively stamping on the liberties of its own citizens when it suits them to do so.

Your examples would mostly include the recent past, from the time of the American founding fathers till say the civil war to Martin Luther King, civil liberties were upheld in America.

Back then the American founding fathers were essentially dissenters but are viewed as heroes. Nowadays due to the patriot act American psyche views dissent as disloyalty. Doesn't make the people today any right.

 

[SpArK]

Welcome to the 21st century.

 

[Awesome]

Welcome to the 21st century.

21st century idiocy?

Bras make women breasts perky, how do we know there is not a boob bomb in there carried by a flat chested woman?

Go ahead, ban bras.

 

[Black Widow]

21st century idiocy?

Bras make women breasts perky, how do we know there is not a boob bomb in there carried by a flat chested woman?

Go ahead, ban bras.

Its not about Bomb, Its about women rights. I believe you have read the article before posting any cooment. If bot please read the article.

 

[SpArK]

21st century idiocy?

Bras make women breasts perky, how do we know there is not a boob bomb in there carried by a flat chested woman?

Go ahead, ban bras.

Why BOMB theory applied on this rule.??

More bomb attacks happened in car explosions.

Would u say ban cars.?

The full face veil was born out of compulsion.

Let them smell the air.

God has created a beautiful face not to get laminated in some black cloth. If so apply it to males too.

 

[vsdoc]

But the fact that you have not chosen to highlight your concerns other than security shows some amount of intellectual dishonesty on your part. It's like "We got a good excuse, lets press on it".

Not true and you know it, so unfair on your part to ascribe some motivations to me.

I have been pretty vocal about my views on the viel in all its formats in the past without having the need to resort to subterfuge by proxy by latching on to security related coattails.

Yes the thread offered me the opportunity of jumping into a potentially meaty debate - something I have been hard pressed to find in the recent past.

True but a woman - is not a child and has free voice by law. If that is being subdued, it is the government's responsibility to make sure that the law is upheld.

Out here, there are some families whose girls wear the veil post menarche. They are still technically kids by the law of the land, not to mention mentally and emotionally.

It's the governament's responsibility you say. Fine. You still have not answered HOW the government is going to distinguish free choice from pressure in 99 out of 100 cases.

In the absence of that, you are putting the onus on to the girl to come out and protest. Something you and I know is never going to happen. As well as why its never going to happen.

So your argument skirts the issue by legalese that is practically impossible.

Incorrect. Most women in Pakistani urban society don't wear even the hijab, but others who do get by and intermingle in society as normal.

Most urban muslims here as well. But what about the majority? "Getting by" and "Intermingling in society" cannot be the barometer of free choice and what is right Asim. You could well be having many resentful women intermingling and sharing each other's pain, with not much else in the form of relief or release at home or outside.

Is it coincidence Asim that 99% of muslim girls who wear the veil at home or around family, do not wear it - by choice - when they are in a different city or country?

What does that say to you about free choice?

On a case by case basis if you can prove this then well and good, send the police in. If you can't and the woman says she wants to wear it you're essentially saying "Shut up woman, you don't know what's good for you".

You cannot prove it. Simple. If she parrots "free choice" then its her family in particular and muslim soceity at large that will essentially be saying "Shut up and stop interfering. You don't know what's good for us."

Don't wear it, its been made open by law in 99% of all Islamic countries.

Yet in those 99% countries millions of muslims girls still do land up wearing the veil.

Why?

You (and most muslims) say free choice.

Me (and most non-muslims) say pressure.

Please tell me, and I ask you this as a father of two girls of my own, so do not once again ascribe baser motives to the question.

Are muslim girls that biologically and physiologically and mentally and emotionally different from girls from other religions that they do not want to preen and pout and look pretty to attract the attention of guys (a variety of them)?

Your examples would mostly include the recent past, from the time of the American founding fathers till say the civil war to Martin Luther King, civil liberties were upheld in America.

Back then the American founding fathers were essentially dissenters but are viewed as heroes. Nowadays due to the patriot act American psyche views dissent as disloyalty. Doesn't make the people today any right.

I cannot remember the specifics, but the native Americans shoved into reservations (i.e. post the mass scale butcher and genocide that preceded that) and th Jap Americans herded into holding areas for the duration of WWII does not qualify as recent past.

 

[Black Widow]

Ill practice?

so u are trying to say that a women who is covering her face instead of exposing it practicing ill.

Yes it is not in our culture nor in our religion. Infact Oppression of women is not in our behavior. Note that this ill practice came to India to save women from greedy eye of western dacoits/invaders. By time passes it became tradition.

If you read my post carefully , i talked bout Indian/Hindu culture not Islamic. I am not educated enough to talk bout Islam.

don't be offended ... its one of the many anomalies and idiocies I've heard from these indians ... depicting zoophilia in religious temples and drinking cow urine is fine but covering your face is an "ill practice"

You are right You must not be offended. When a Muslim says "Drinking wine is Haram" he is not offending christian (as wine and bread is part of last supper). Similarly when I say its bad practice it must not offend Islam. I said my term in very limited perspective. I told according to Hindu culture or Indian cultureIt is ill practice. (like dowry and honor killing.)

 

[Black Widow]

For those who say/believe Veil and full face/body mask is There cultural thing, not Islamic

1. Afghanistan: Before Islam , Afghanistan was Budhhist/Hindu kingdom Where there is no reference of Full body veil. So saying it cultural is wrong. After Islam came into the region, This practice came into picture.
2. Iran: Before Islam converted all in Iran, That land belong to Parsi, and as I know full body veil was not in persian culture.
3. I Don't know about KSA and other Arabian countries.
4. Pakistan: Till 1947 it was Indian civilization..

Conclusion: Full body veil is not cultural. One must not say that its has nothing to do with Islam.


Ancient Persian dressing
http://www.irandokht.com/editorial/index4.php?area=per&sectionID=3&editorialID=958

 

[vsdoc]

2. Iran: Before Islam converted all in Iran, That land belong to Parsi, and as I know full body veil was not in persian culture.

Few corrections.

It was never Iran but Persia. And Zoroastrianism (and before it, ancient Mithraism) was the resident 5000-year-old culture and religion that was displaced.

Islam did not convert all. Those who refused, died. Or practiced in hiding. Or fled to India. Where they came to be known as Parsis.

 

[Black Widow]

History of Veil

Contrary to popular belief, neither Islam nor Persia invented the veil. Veiling has a long history in the ancient Near East as well as Mediterranean cultures and predates Islam by several centuries

As we all know when new religion forms, it is highly influenced by existing religion, hence many tradition carry forward.

Assyrian kings first introduced both the seclusion of women in the royal harem and the veil in the Near East. Veils were forbidden for prostitutes and slaves, however. Beyond the Near East, the practice of living veiled, isolated lives appeared in classical Greece, in the Byzantine Christian world, in Persia

Unlike in modern times, the first Muslims were not overly concerned about female attire; in fact, their practice of covering women stemmed from regional customs as Islam spread throughout the ancient world. It was only in the second Islamic century that the veil became common for Muslim women.

Hope it will give some insight..

 

[nomi007]

veil is better than uncover it prevents from vagabonds

 

[livingdead]

Guys its an april fool joke. Dont take it seriusly. From same news:

This extensive worldwide outburst of criticism forced President Karzai to exploit more radical options to improve his poor record on women’s rights. Beginning April 1, 2012, women won’t be allowed to wear niqabs and burkas, cloths fully covering the face and body, respectively, on Mondays, liable to a 20-year imprisonment or stoning.

 

[Luffy 500]

This idiot puppet Karzai doesn't even has writ over his presidential palace and the moron is talking about face veil ban, that
too in a religious country like AF. The retard has completely lost it, may be out of fear of the Taliban beheading after his masters leave just like najibullah.

Its not about Bomb, Its about women rights. I believe you have read the article before posting any cooment. If bot please read the article.

If i am not wrong, the number of rapes in shinning India and most notably dehli is rising exponentially. May be that's a
result of practicing too much western version of women's rights.

 

[neutral_person]

This idiot puppet Karzai doesn't even has writ over his presidential palace and the moron is talking about face veil ban, that
too in a religious country like AF. The retard has completely lost it, may be out of fear of the Taliban beheading after his masters leave just like najibullah.




If i am not wrong, the number of rapes in shinning India and most notably dehli is rising exponentially. May be that's a
result of practicing too much western version of women's rights.

The bottom line is you should not be forcing your views on others. If a woman wants to wear a miniskirt, she should be free to. If you like the Hijab so much, wear it yourself, stop forcing your sisters/wives/daughters/random strangers who are women to wear it. The number of rapes is Delhi is not a women's rights issue, it is a law and order issue.