What's new

How can Pakistan counter India’s ABM system?

I understand what you are trying to say.That Pakistan should introduce systems like Shaurya,BrahMos,Prahaar to effectively modernize its Ballistic missiles.
You have to understand,that Pakistan does not have the money for these type of new and expensive projects.I will also post about the possible improvements that could be made on the existing systems in a while.
Prahaar is roughy in Nasr class, Brahmos is also of tactical nature and supersonic cruise missles have a long development history origens of which can be tracked from Russia. I said it earlier onething comes at the cost of other, being supersonic the manuverbility is lost....secondly the SAM missile is also supersonic and having an non manuverable target makes life much easier for a fast moving interceptor, If I can recall the interview of an F-15 pilot who engaged a supersonic Mig-25 in desert strom ,"When we truned in merge, i could see him lost as his turn would be of the size of arizona while mine would of some miles". Thats why western nations still like Subsonic CMs for land attack preferabally. And lastly, NESCOM continously runs its programs, Dr Samar said that they never faced shortage of funds from government and were allocated the required amount.
 
which is why the AESA ABM radars are designed to cover areas the size of at least 3,000 square km plus we have spy satellites so the element of surprise is really taken away

Surely you know the difference between 3000 sqkm v/s 3000 km straight line coast-to-coast distance.

More importantly, India has focussed their defence along the Pakistani border. Will India spend the money to deploy an equally dense ABM system along the eastern coast?


Well you are right and Indian Navy will only guess where to search for these Submarines. after all, all thoes P8 are only for having a plesant flight over sea dont you think?? :fie:

If submarines were so easy to detect, the concept of sea-based nuclear deterrance would not exist.
 
Well you are right and Indian Navy will only guess where to search for these Submarines. after all, all thoes P8 are only for having a plesant flight over sea dont you think?? :fie:
How innocent.....I am amazed how some posters here take things for granted....be it any ASW platform, unless a sub does not give away its position, its very difficult to even detect one (let alone engage it). I am full of smiles when some posters come here with RTS games mentality. A sub is like an covert agent on its own, disconnected from external world when on its task. The general principal states the more noise, the more Chance of it being detected, the more Chance it being engaged, the more Chance it being destroyed. So effectively a sub is itself responsible for its destruction rather than ASW platform
 
How innocent.....I am amazed how some posters here take things for granted....be it any ASW platform, unless a sub does not give away its position, its very difficult to even detect one (let alone engage it). I am full of smiles when some posters come here with RTS games mentality. A sub is like an covert agent on its own, disconnected from external world when on its task. The general principal states the more noise, the more Chance of it being detected, the more Chance it being engaged, the more Chance it being destroyed. So effectively a sub is itself responsible for its destruction rather than ASW platform

Anti-submarine warfare (ASW, or in older form A/S) is a branch of naval warfare that uses surface warships, aircraft, or other submarines to find, track and deter, damage or destroy enemy submarines.

Successful anti-submarine warfare depends on a mix of sensor and weapon technology, training, experience and luck. Sophisticated sonar equipment for first detecting, then classifying, locating and tracking the target submarine is a key element of ASW. To destroy submarines both the torpedo and mine are used, launched from air, surface and underwater platforms.

My first question is how many of Pakistan's submarine are nucleared powered??

As far as my knowledge is concerned majority are Diseal electric powered one

There are a large number of technologies used in modern anti-submarine warfare:

Sensors
Acoustics particularly in active and passive sonar, sonobuoys and fixed hydrophones and in the reduction of radiated noise.
Pyrotechnics in the use of markers, flares and explosive devices
Searchlights
Radar
Low frequency spread-spectrum electromagnetic surface wave devices
Active spread-spectrum magnetic techniques
Hydrodynamic pressure wave detection
Blue-green laser airborne and satellite LIDAR
Electronic countermeasures and Acoustic Countermeasures such as noisemakers
Passive acoustic countermeasures such as concealment and design of sound-absorbing materials to coat reflecting underwater surfaces
Magnetic anomaly detection (MAD)
Active and (more commonly) passive infra-red detection
In modern times Forward looking infrared (FLIR) detectors have been used to track the large plumes of heat that fast nuclear-powered submarines leave while rising to the surface. FLIR devices are also used to see periscopes or snorkels at night whenever a submariner might be incautious enough to probe the surface.

The active sonar used in such operations is often of "mid-frequency", approximately 3.5 kHz. Because of the quietening of submarines, resulting in shorter passive detection ranges, there has been interest in low frequency active for ocean surveillance. However, there have been protests about the use of medium and low frequency high-powered active sonar because of its effects on whales. Others argue the high power level of some LFA (Low Frequency Active) sonars is actually detrimental to sonar performance in that such sonars are reverberation limited.

Today some nations have seabed listening devices capable of tracking submarines. It is known to be possible to detect man-made marine noises across the southern Indian Ocean from South Africa to New Zealand. Some of the SOSUS arrays have been turned over to civilian use and are now used for marine research.

Well in India's case, there are dedicated military satellite which would help in thermal imaging (if am not wrong), P8 are very much potent anti- sub platform and most importantly indian navy is much more large, well equipted and has that much resources.

Though I must say still tracking a submarine is not a walk in the park, but sure can be tracked...

regards
 
^^^ Just to add to your post,conventional submarines that do not employ a nuclear propulsion system can't engage in elaborate routes to throw the enemy off-guard due to it's fuel limitations.It takes some of the guesswork on which routes that they might take out of the equation.
 
If you guys are so confident of your ability to track submarines, that is excellent news for Pakistan.
 
India might not have an operational ABM yet, but we do have an air defence SAM(AKASH) tested in Anti-ballistic missile roles just like Patriots of US.

So the entire thread is based essentially, on much Khiali palau?
 
Dude,true that the MIRVed warheads are the easiest to detect owing to their large size,but they are not even close to being easy for engagement.
The true fact is,that American Nike-X ABM system (deployed in the 1960s) and the Soviet A-35 ABM system (deployed in 1971) were targeted against single warheads.MIRVs were introduced in mid-1970s.
Current US,Russian,Israeli,Indian ABM systems cannot intercept MIRVs succesfully.

Please correct your knowledge.

MIRV warheads are not easy to intercept.

you are right.

before MIRV interceptors had upper hand over BMs as they had only one warhead.

situation changed with MIRV as missiles were able to carry 6 to 10 warheads while interceptors were unable to do so
 
So the entire thread is based essentially, on much Khiali palau?

The technology is the factor, the thread if I am not wrong questions the counter medicine to the ABM Technology India Possesses. Nothing is materialistic in this world apart from a few cutting edge technologies such as these.
 
Anti-submarine warfare (ASW, or in older form A/S) is a branch of naval warfare that uses surface warships, aircraft, or other submarines to find, track and deter, damage or destroy enemy submarines.

Successful anti-submarine warfare depends on a mix of sensor and weapon technology, training, experience and luck. Sophisticated sonar equipment for first detecting, then classifying, locating and tracking the target submarine is a key element of ASW. To destroy submarines both the torpedo and mine are used, launched from air, surface and underwater platforms.

My first question is how many of Pakistan's submarine are nucleared powered??

As far as my knowledge is concerned majority are or Diseal electric powered one

There are a large number of technologies used in modern anti-submarine warfare:

Sensors
Acoustics particularly in active and passive sonar, sonobuoys and fixed hydrophones and in the reduction of radiated noise.
Pyrotechnics in the use of markers, flares and explosive devices
Searchlights
Radar
Low frequency spread-spectrum electromagnetic surface wave devices
Active spread-spectrum magnetic techniques
Hydrodynamic pressure wave detection
Blue-green laser airborne and satellite LIDAR
Electronic countermeasures and Acoustic Countermeasures such as noisemakers
Passive acoustic countermeasures such as concealment and design of sound-absorbing materials to coat reflecting underwater surfaces
Magnetic anomaly detection (MAD)
Active and (more commonly) passive infra-red detection
In modern times Forward looking infrared (FLIR) detectors have been used to track the large plumes of heat that fast nuclear-powered submarines leave while rising to the surface. FLIR devices are also used to see periscopes or snorkels at night whenever a submariner might be incautious enough to probe the surface.

The active sonar used in such operations is often of "mid-frequency", approximately 3.5 kHz. Because of the quietening of submarines, resulting in shorter passive detection ranges, there has been interest in low frequency active for ocean surveillance. However, there have been protests about the use of medium and low frequency high-powered active sonar because of its effects on whales. Others argue the high power level of some LFA (Low Frequency Active) sonars is actually detrimental to sonar performance in that such sonars are reverberation limited.

Today some nations have seabed listening devices capable of tracking submarines. It is known to be possible to detect man-made marine noises across the southern Indian Ocean from South Africa to New Zealand. Some of the SOSUS arrays have been turned over to civilian use and are now used for marine research.

Well in India's case, there are dedicated military satellite which would help in thermal imaging (if am not wrong), P8 are very much potent anti- sub platform and most importantly indian navy is much more large, well equipted and has that much resources.

Though I must say still tracking a submarine is not a walk in the park, but sure can be tracked...

regards
Just a few things to further clarify....first thing first, you cant detect a sub like an aircraft or a ship or a tank. A things are pre requisitis for detecting a sub
1-One should know that a particular location contains a sub operating
2-then in that particular location what is the possible area where sub has the higher probability of detection
3-Then there is deployment of sensors and other equipment to get the more precise location
4- Then Weapons are used such as depth charges In hope that one of them will eventually hit the sub.
The best chance of a sub is to sit quiet underdepth as this would most of the sensing equipment almost ineffective as passive sensors based on acoustic and infrared detection wont hear anything.

Secondly regarding Nuke Subs and Conventional subs, both have their relative advantages and disadvantages. While Nuke sub can practically remain submerged for much much longer time than concventional sub alongwith size and speed advantage. It will also have to eventually surface ( the air in the sub, if remains submerged for longer period, gets contaminated). The noise and heat signature is also larger as compared to disel electric subs. The disel subs are slower and short legged yet quieter than Nukies. The introduction of AIP serves the very purpose of enhacing underwater endurence of disel electric subs.
 
Just a few things to further clarify....first thing first, you cant detect a sub like an aircraft or a ship or a tank. A things are pre requisitis for detecting a sub
1-One should know that a particular location contains a sub operating
2-then in that particular location what is the possible area where sub has the higher probability of detection
3-Then there is deployment of sensors and other equipment to get the more precise location
4- Then Weapons are used such as depth charges In hope that one of them will eventually hit the sub.
The best chance of a sub is to sit quiet underdepth as this would most of the sensing equipment almost ineffective as passive sensors based on acoustic and infrared detection wont hear anything.

Secondly regarding Nuke Subs and Conventional subs, both have their relative advantages and disadvantages. While Nuke sub can practically remain submerged for much much longer time than concventional sub alongwith size and speed advantage. It will also have to eventually surface ( the air in the sub, if remains submerged for longer period, gets contaminated). The noise and heat signature is also larger as compared to disel electric subs. The disel subs are slower and short legged yet quieter than Nukies. The introduction of AIP serves the very purpose of enhacing underwater endurence of disel electric subs.

I agree to every point you had made, and thanks for sharing the same with us. Thats y I said its not easy to detect subs, but reconaisance, use of tech, surviliance, information gathered by security agencies, thermal imaging satellites. all these taken togather can increase the chances of detecting a sub.

Regards
 
Dude,thats why I say you keep shitting my posts and trash them...



DT takes more time?.....I don't think so,given that you have 2 missiles with same range but different trajectories...

A bigger path is followed? :hitwall: Are you sure you know what you are talking about?

does the term "depressed" means anything to you?...well,it means lowered...having lower altitude.Apparently,you ignored my previous post(s). Here it is again...



However,if DT is applied to a missile without any modifications,its range decreases radically along with it speed.Thats where the aero-spike and a powerful motor come in.

I am not implying that Ghaznavi cannot be intercepted by the "being-developed" Indian ABM.What I am saying,is that Ghaznavi/M-11/Scud-C could reach the 300km mark without any modification.Now,when modifications are being made to Ghaznavi,it most certainly means that it will follow a depressed trajectory (by incorporating aerspike and a powerful motor) to reach its 290 km mark.



Totally agreed.The sheer speed and heating of the ReV will make it impossible for any MRBM to deploy effective evading measures.



Just wanted to add,every guided ballistic missile is a pre-programmed one.There are no manual inputs required during flight for an operational BM (except while testing,and that too,to self-destruct). The mission computer is autonomous,and it makes trajectory corrections by itself.By receiving data from the inertial Navigation System (self-guidance) or space based guidance systems (GPS/GLONASS/COMPASS) or celestial guidance (self-guidance).

No,our missiles cannot abort flight by themselves.



The laser ring gyroscopes and accelerometer constitute the Inertial Navigation System (INS).This guidance is found in every ballistic missile of ours,since it is the simplest guidance.Although it is not very very accurate.



Good...but what do you mean? The trajectory is corrected/adjusted/changed by using flex nozzles and thrusters.How else are you supposed to change flight path (out of the atmosphere)?


I didn't say that Agni-IIP is not an advanced missile.Of course it is,and IMO Agni-II should be completely replaced by the Agni-IIP.



Agreed.Thats very good.

I saw whats written in your quote at the earlier post..... In most form DT would take similar amount or greater amount of time in case same missiles are used all depends on the apogee of the missile for both Depressed or normal ballistic trajectory..... now If the motor is powerful enough it would burn the same amount of fuel to reach the apogee height at quicker speed since the density of air would decrease in higher atmosphere..... while the less powerful motor would burn the equal amount of fuel ant still travel relatively slower since the higher density of air..... hence more time taken..... now the path from the apogee is where higher potential energy would convert into higher kinetic energy since the mass is same hence the higher projectile would have higher velocity..... now the difference is between height of apogee for both cases.... you don't need any source for this... can check yourself (remember the earth is spherical so take it into account.... the rotation can be neglected here since it is SRBM)..... ultimately the warhead with low velocity here would be easier to intercept than the one with higher velocity..... the significant advantage for the DT missile would be that it would escape the eye of extra long range X-band tracking radars which have range in excess of 2000-3000 km.....

Actually the heat would not allow any antenna to function.... hence detection of offensive ABM would not be possible.... you can still perform blind maneuvers and hope not to be intercepted... or reach in the range of proximity fuse.


yes It is pre-programmed.... and inputs are added in mid flight if necessary.... the GPS thing which you mentioned is one such input... artificial intelligence does all that on its own... just attach a laptop and feed the target into missile and forget it.... it makes it a kind of fire and forget system.

The The laser ring gyroscopes and accelerometer are new technologies which are finding its place in newer ballistic missiles like DF-21D, DF-31, DF-41, Bulava, Agni III etc.... It was not there in earlier BMs.... rather normal qyros were used to keep the nose on path.

The path can be corrected in outer space aswell haven't you seen satellites correcting their path.... or the manned missions.... etc.... how would these things operate in space if they could not correct or alter their path.... space is full of surprise elements and unknown threads which popup all of a sudden.... In case just to remind you Rocket fuel does not require any air.
 
I understand what you are trying to say.That Pakistan should introduce systems like Shaurya,BrahMos,Prahaar to effectively modernize its Ballistic missiles.
You have to understand,that Pakistan does not have the money for these type of new and expensive projects.I will also post about the possible improvements that could be made on the existing systems in a while.

New systems like Agni III, Agni IIP, Shaurya, DF-21 (later models).... etc... etc... Brahmos and Prahaar are two different things..... yes it would cost a little but that is necessary and you can't live on those preemptive concepts for long by the time your money comes.... the 2nd phase of BMD would be operational.... so its better to start now.... rather than wasting the same money on older concepts.... and unnecessary nukes.... one capable is better than 100 in incapables.
 
To all.... PLEASE LIMIT THIS TO BM AND ABM DISCUSSION.... don't bring your unnecessary crap here.

I think there are many threads running full time about subs-P8Is-P3C.... and naval wars.
 
Surely you know the difference between 3000 sqkm v/s 3000 km straight line coast-to-coast distance.

More importantly, India has focussed their defence along the Pakistani border. Will India spend the money to deploy an equally dense ABM system along the eastern coast?




If submarines were so easy to detect, the concept of sea-based nuclear deterrance would not exist.

obviously thats what the swordfish radar we developed with help from the Israelis can do its technologies are similar to the green pine which is one of the worlds most capable anti ballistic radar and the radar will be upgraded to preform even more capably against BM's

---------- Post added at 09:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 PM ----------

indian ABM?it just is a joke, why should pakistan counter a joke?

to you its a joke for us its reality
 

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom