How can Pakistan counter India’s ABM system?

[The Deterrent]

Be done with that shitting--shitting..... I have raised reasonable question.... might sound a bit harsh.... but all the fingers are not equal in your hand..... even on that note apologies If I offended you.... in any of my posts.

The reason why I say this because you simply ignore (****) the information given in my posts and come up misinformed...anyway,no hard feelings.

See depressed trajectory is an old thing which came from the shortcoming of fuel quality or thruster motors or missile being overweight...etc.... and only Iranian missiles or NK missiles have such trajectory.... not even cruise missile these days have such a trajectory

Again you didn't look into depressed trajectory of ballistic missiles...

According to [1]

If a missile is flown over shorter ranges,the excess energy can be used to fly less energy-efficient trajectories,such as low-apogee or "depressed" trajectories.Missiles flown on a depressed trajectory (DT) can have significantly shorter flight paths,and therefore significantly shorter flight times,than those flown on a standard trajectory of the same range.

Although this para discusses SLBMs,but the same method can be used in any BM,specially in the case of Indo-Pak situation.

There are several reasons why DT SLBMs may be useful in countering missile defenses. First, the short flight times of DT SLBMs limit the time available for an antimissile system to intercept the incoming warheads. Second, the low profile of depressed trajectories can greatly decrease the range over which a ground-based radar can observe and track the missile, also decreasing the time available for the intercept. Finally, space-based defenses such as the proposed Brilliant Pebbles system are limited to attacking targets at altitudes above about 100 kilometers because of the rapid increase in atmospheric density below this level, which results in extreme heating of the sensors on kinetic interceptors. DTs with apogees below this altitude could therefore underfly such defensive systems;we find that it is possible to fly a shaped trajectory with an apogee of less than 100 kilometers for ranges of roughly 2,000 kilometers or less.

In effect,Indian Quasi-Ballistic missile "Shaurya" also has a depressed trajectory.Tell me that it is too a short-coming of rocket motors.
But Shaurya uses a powerful motor to travel through the atmosphere,maintaining a low altitude.

the spike is there to improve accuracy.... but that has little effect on accuracy..... It has got nothing to do with speed yes it might reduce the initial drag... but that would not make much difference.... you can see why most of modern BM don't have any such spike..... barring SLBM since they have to tear through water for 150m which has lot more drag than air.... in a way that spike on a normal BM shows the shortcomings of the inadequate thrust.

You also don't know much about aerospikes and are merely speculating.

A simple definition "A drag-reducing aerospike is a device used to reduce the forebody pressure drag of blunt bodies at supersonic speeds. The aerospike creates a detached shock ahead of the body. Between the shock and the forebody a zone of recirculating flow occurs which acts like a more streamlined forebody profile, reducing the drag."

This concept was used on the Trident missile and is estimated to have increased the range by 550 km. The Trident aerospike consists of a flat circular plate mounted on an extensible boom which is deployed shortly after the missile breaks through the surface of the water after launch from the submarine. The use of the aerospike allowed a much blunter nose shape, providing increased internal volume for payload and propulsion without increasing the drag.

The aerospike, a telescoping outward extension that halves aerodynamic drag, is then deployed, and the boost phase begins.

It is clearly mentioned that the aerospike is deployed after the missile emerges out of water.It is also apparent that the aero-spike increases range and speed.
And where the hell did you see that aerospike is used to improve accuracy?...how?

Actually,both the aerospike and the depressed trajectory should be employed together.The aerospike will decrease drag faced in DT,hence the need of a powerful engine is eliminated to some extent.And I believe,this is the method applied to the modernized Ghaznavi.

All the BM have such separation as well as terminal trajectory controlling mechanism.... I would like to know weather the RV has additional motors with flex nozzle or not....

Yes,all modern BMs have post-correction system.But only long range BMs have Terminal Correction system.
And yes,TCS incorporates a flex nozzle and side-thrusters fitted on the ReV.

Now adding diversity is one thing but making your arsenal weak in with such missiles is another...... What kind of liquid fuel is being used for Gauri series BMs normally these liquid fuel missiles are kept empty and it takes 1-2 hours to refuel them.... and you can't allow the liquid fuel to be in the missile for launch.... It has to be launched quickly.....

Agreed...but Pakistan didn't incorporate it after the solid fueled missiles ere inducted.The Ghauri series was the pioneer of Pakistani missiles and is expected to be retired.I believe that Ghauri-I has already been retired.

Adding another stage has just increased the range and velocity.... aswell as payload capacity to some extent.... but there isn't much technological difference in motors.... fuel.... thrusters.... casing..... etc..etc...

I would say,an indigenously developed first-stage motor for Shaheen-II... It has no counterpart in the Chinese arsenal. so

Now A few questions about your most modern missile....

I didn't say it was the most modern in its class in the world.But it is the most modern missile of Pakistan.

Does it have different and better fuel than Its earlier version ??

No...the fuel is the same.

Does it have different motors ??

The second stage has a faster motor.

Does it have automated internal guidance system ??

Yes,the INS is present even in Ghauri-II,Shaheen-I and Ghaznavi.

Does it have artificial intelligence or a robotic computers ??

Is that a joke?
BTW,it does have a mission computer.

Does it have flex nozzle ??

Yes,thats what helps the TCS and makes up the MaRV.

Does it have composite casing ??

I don't know about that.Most probably,no.

Does it have RV with additional fuel and motors ??

The ReV is called a "vehicle" because of a small motor which corrects the trajectory

Unless and Until it does not have all the things combined..... Its possibility of evading current ABM system of India is very minimal......

You are highly over-estimating Indian ABMs and highly under-estimating Pakistani BMs,taking them for mere Scuds.

Referrence :

[1] http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...trajectory+slbms+pdf&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=pk

 

[The Deterrent]

@DARKY....the video you posted is of PAD (Pradyumna),not of AAD(Ashwin)...

 

[DARKY]

Again you didn't look into depressed trajectory of ballistic missiles...

According to [1]


Although this para discusses SLBMs,but the same method can be used in any BM,specially in the case of Indo-Pak situation.


In effect,Indian Quasi-Ballistic missile "Shaurya" also has a depressed trajectory.Tell me that it is too a short-coming of rocket motors.
But Shaurya uses a powerful motor to travel through the atmosphere,maintaining a low altitude.



You also don't know much about aerospikes and are merely speculating.

A simple definition "A drag-reducing aerospike is a device used to reduce the forebody pressure drag of blunt bodies at supersonic speeds. The aerospike creates a detached shock ahead of the body. Between the shock and the forebody a zone of recirculating flow occurs which acts like a more streamlined forebody profile, reducing the drag."





It is clearly mentioned that the aerospike is deployed after the missile emerges out of water.It is also apparent that the aero-spike increases range and speed.
And where the hell did you see that aerospike is used to improve accuracy?...how?

Actually,both the aerospike and the depressed trajectory should be employed together.The aerospike will decrease drag faced in DT,hence the need of a powerful engine is eliminated to some extent.And I believe,this is the method applied to the modernized Ghaznavi.



Yes,all modern BMs have post-correction system.But only long range BMs have Terminal Correction system.
And yes,TCS incorporates a flex nozzle and side-thrusters fitted on the ReV.



Agreed...but Pakistan didn't incorporate it after the solid fueled missiles ere inducted.The Ghauri series was the pioneer of Pakistani missiles and is expected to be retired.I believe that Ghauri-I has already been retired.



I would say,an indigenously developed first-stage motor for Shaheen-II... It has no counterpart in the Chinese arsenal. so



I didn't say it was the most modern in its class in the world.But it is the most modern missile of Pakistan.


No...the fuel is the same.

The second stage has a faster motor.

Yes,the INS is present even in Ghauri-II,Shaheen-I and Ghaznavi.

Is that a joke?
BTW,it does have a mission computer.

Yes,thats what helps the TCS and makes up the MaRV.

I don't know about that.Most probably,no.

The ReV is called a "vehicle" because of a small motor which corrects the trajectory



You are highly over-estimating Indian ABMs and highly under-estimating Pakistani BMs,taking them for mere Scuds.

Referrence :

[1] www.princeton.edu/sgs/publications/sgs/pdf/3_1-2gronlund.pdf+depressed+trajectory+slbms+pdf&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=pk]A Technical Evaluation and Arms Control Possibilities[/url]

Taking of depressed trajectory.... Its nothing but a half elliptical path.... with very less speed.... yes It avoids detection by very long range X-band radars.... However It cannot escape the LRTR such as swordfish..... or green pine.... since they have been designed to..... to track such trajectories...

The velocity is also very less and moreover the low flight path means even shorter celling height ABMs can take care of it.... Aswin has been tested with such trajectories..... to check the reaction time of the automatic system.

Artificial Intelligence is not a joke.... and It is very important part of modern weapon systems.... It might sound joke to people who still believe in scud missiles.

I would to know the source of your information regarding Flex nozzle in ReV of Shaheen II.

---------- Post added at 10:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:25 PM ----------

@DARKY....the video you posted is of PAD (Pradyumna),not of AAD(Ashwin)...

Yes I realized after posting.... never mind that also shows maneuvers....

 

[The Deterrent]

Taking of depressed trajectory.... Its nothing but a half elliptical path.... with very less speed.... yes It avoids detection by very long range X-band radars.... However It cannot escape the LRTR such as swordfish..... or green pine.... since they have been designed to..... to track such trajectories...

The velocity is also very less and moreover the low flight path means even shorter celling height ABMs can take care of it.... Aswin has been tested with such trajectories..... to check the reaction time of the automatic system.

Well you cannot say "it is nothing but this" to everything...
Agreed that DT is a half elliptical path,with the missile having a lower velocity than that in a normal flight path.It is not that low,so that both flight times are equal.DT offers shorter flight time.

Agreed that the modernized Ghaznavi can be detected and intercepted by the proposed yet-to-be deployed Indian BMD.

Artificial Intelligence is not a joke.... and It is very important part of modern weapon systems.... It might sound joke to people who still believe in scud missiles.

I know that AI has been "in" from the 90's.
The question is,what do you mean by AI here,employed by Ballistic missiles.
I presume that you are trying to say that the mission computer should be intelligent,to detect the incoming ABM and choose the available counter-measure,including changing flight path rapidly.

Then no,Pakistan's missile technology is not that advanced.Although Shaheen-II has a mission computer which automatically corrects trajectory after stage and ReV seperations and during re-entry.

I would to know the source of your information regarding Flex nozzle in ReV of Shaheen II.

Well,my source is an inside one,although the news of Shaheen-II being capable of radically changing its trajectory has been mentioned in several news reports.


Dude,I understand that you are inspired by Agni-IIP alot,thats why you bring up terms like "composites" and "flex nozzles".Believe me,Shaheen-II (upgrade) is very similar to Agni-IIP,except that it does not incorporates composite materials and "artificial intelligence" (btw kindly explain what you mean by this).

Also,your assumption that these missiles are just repainted,licensed-built,copied,modified Scuds will lead you to nowhere.I will elaborate on that in a while.
"To defeat your enemy,you need to know it first".

That said,honestly I don't think you know much about Pakistani BMs,since you said that Ghauri-II has two stages when it has one.
You are seeing only one side of the coin,and it has led you to chest-thump on the capabilities of Indian ABMs.

 

[DARKY]

Well you cannot say "it is nothing but this" to everything...
Agreed that DT is a half elliptical path,with the missile having a lower velocity than that in a normal flight path.It is not that low,so that both flight times are equal.DT offers shorter flight time.

Agreed that the modernized Ghaznavi can be detected and intercepted by the proposed yet-to-be deployed Indian BMD.



I know that AI has been "in" from the 90's.
The question is,what do you mean by AI here,employed by Ballistic missiles.
I presume that you are trying to say that the mission computer should be intelligent,to detect the incoming ABM and choose the available counter-measure,including changing flight path rapidly.

Then no,Pakistan's missile technology is not that advanced.Although Shaheen-II has a mission computer which automatically corrects trajectory after stage and ReV seperations and during re-entry.



Well,my source is an inside one,although the news of Shaheen-II being capable of radically changing its trajectory has been mentioned in several news reports.


Dude,I understand that you are inspired by Agni-IIP alot,thats why you bring up terms like "composites" and "flex nozzles".Believe me,Shaheen-II (upgrade) is very similar to Agni-IIP,except that it does not incorporates composite materials and "artificial intelligence" (btw kindly explain what you mean by this).

Also,your assumption that these missiles are just repainted,licensed-built,copied,modified Scuds will lead you to nowhere.I will elaborate on that in a while.
"To defeat your enemy,you need to know it first".

That said,honestly I don't think you know much about Pakistani BMs,since you said that Ghauri-II has two stages when it has one.
You are seeing only one side of the coin,and it has led you to chest-thump on the capabilities of Indian ABMs.

No.... DT takes more time.... since the velocity is low and a bigger path is followed.... test a depressed trajectory on a round object and normal one u'll see the difference..... and do that with a piece of thread for accurate measurements.

Artificial Intelligence is the robotic memory which makes the computer function without any manual command.... Its very difficult to mount any antenna on a BM or its ReV....to detect any Offensive ABM.... and take countermeasures... It is simply not possible... even if you use break through heat shields the detection and evading time would be very less at such speed and such size....of the antenna.

Every BM has a ground link... used to guide it upto certain stage in its flight path and the ones like Agni I/II, Shaheen I/II or DF-21 have it..... the mission computer uses these inputs and the data feed at the launch to guide the missile in its path.... and correct the mid course flight.... the real difference come when It is the computer which makes the correction and has no linkage from the ground..... such a ground linkage is necessary for safety measures and is used when there is something wrong with missile.... and it is asked to self destruct while the artificial intelligence keeps the track of health of missile and decides weather to abort mission or continue with it.... along with course correction methods.... the ring laser gyroscopes and accelerometer is used as standards while correcting the unnecessary deviations and distortions in the missile path.

Having ability to change path and flex nozzles are two different things.... however I would take your word on that note for the ReV of Shaheen II...

My good friend Agni IIP has technologies derived from Brahmos, Shurya, and Agni III programs and its actually a test bed for technologies to be used on Agni V..... and interestingly It has some sort of antenna on it ReV.... quiet uncharacteristic of any BM..... Composite motors, Composite casings as well as High Heat resistant ReV which can withstand an explosion of a nuclear warhead upto 500m distance.... is a result of CFC structures research done for Tejas program which is paying highly nowadays.... If you have such ReV then you are near immune to proximity fuse ABMs.... and only Kinetic Kill vehicles like... THAAD or Ashwin can harm you..... only Russia employees such technology on its ReV and India has just tested it on an Improved Agni III, and Agni IIP, Shaurya.... and would be a part of Agni V programme....

These newer missiles are totally different with different motors, different fuel, different body, etc... only Agni IIP shares the same design....

 

[DARKY]

I am pointing the shortcomings of working on old technologies.... Pakistan should introduce newer generation BMs...... to counter India's ABM/BMD systems.

 

[The Deterrent]

Dude,thats why I say you keep shitting my posts and trash them...

No.... DT takes more time.... since the velocity is low and a bigger path is followed.... test a depressed trajectory on a round object and normal one u'll see the difference..... and do that with a piece of thread for accurate measurements.

DT takes more time?.....I don't think so,given that you have 2 missiles with same range but different trajectories...

A bigger path is followed? Are you sure you know what you are talking about?

does the term "depressed" means anything to you?...well,it means lowered...having lower altitude.Apparently,you ignored my previous post(s). Here it is again...

If a missile is flown over shorter ranges,the excess energy can be used to fly less energy-efficient trajectories,such as low-apogee or "depressed" trajectories.Missiles flown on a depressed trajectory (DT) can have significantly shorter flight paths,and therefore significantly shorter flight times,than those flown on a standard trajectory of the same range.

However,if DT is applied to a missile without any modifications,its range decreases radically along with it speed.Thats where the aero-spike and a powerful motor come in.

I am not implying that Ghaznavi cannot be intercepted by the "being-developed" Indian ABM.What I am saying,is that Ghaznavi/M-11/Scud-C could reach the 300km mark without any modification.Now,when modifications are being made to Ghaznavi,it most certainly means that it will follow a depressed trajectory (by incorporating aerspike and a powerful motor) to reach its 290 km mark.

Artificial Intelligence is the robotic memory which makes the computer function without any manual command.... Its very difficult to mount any antenna on a BM or its ReV....to detect any Offensive ABM.... and take countermeasures... It is simply not possible... even if you use break through heat shields the detection and evading time would be very less at such speed and such size....of the antenna.

Totally agreed.The sheer speed and heating of the ReV will make it impossible for any MRBM to deploy effective evading measures.

Every BM has a ground link... used to guide it upto certain stage in its flight path and the ones like Agni I/II, Shaheen I/II or DF-21 have it..... the mission computer uses these inputs and the data feed at the launch to guide the missile in its path.... and correct the mid course flight.... the real difference come when It is the computer which makes the correction and has no linkage from the ground..... such a ground linkage is necessary for safety measures and is used when there is something wrong with missile.... and it is asked to self destruct while the artificial intelligence keeps the track of health of missile and decides weather to abort mission or continue with it....

Just wanted to add,every guided ballistic missile is a pre-programmed one.There are no manual inputs required during flight for an operational BM (except while testing,and that too,to self-destruct). The mission computer is autonomous,and it makes trajectory corrections by itself.By receiving data from the inertial Navigation System (self-guidance) or space based guidance systems (GPS/GLONASS/COMPASS) or celestial guidance (self-guidance).

No,our missiles cannot abort flight by themselves.

along with course correction methods.... the ring laser gyroscopes and accelerometer is used as standards while correcting the unnecessary deviations and distortions in the missile path.

The laser ring gyroscopes and accelerometer constitute the Inertial Navigation System (INS).This guidance is found in every ballistic missile of ours,since it is the simplest guidance.Although it is not very very accurate.

Having ability to change path and flex nozzles are two different things.... however I would take your word on that note for the ReV of Shaheen II...

Good...but what do you mean? The trajectory is corrected/adjusted/changed by using flex nozzles and thrusters.How else are you supposed to change flight path (out of the atmosphere)?

My good friend Agni IIP has technologies derived from Brahmos, Shurya, and Agni III programs and its actually a test bed for technologies to be used on Agni V..... and interestingly It has some sort of antenna on it ReV.... quiet uncharacteristic of any BM..... Composite motors, Composite casings as well as High Heat resistant ReV which can withstand an explosion of a nuclear warhead upto 500m distance.... is a result of CFC structures research done for Tejas program which is paying highly nowadays.... If you have such ReV then you are near immune to proximity fuse ABMs.... and only Kinetic Kill vehicles like... THAAD or Ashwin can harm you..... only Russia employees such technology on its ReV and India has just tested it on an Improved Agni III, and Agni IIP, Shaurya.... and would be a part of Agni V programme....

I didn't say that Agni-IIP is not an advanced missile.Of course it is,and IMO Agni-II should be completely replaced by the Agni-IIP.

These newer missiles are totally different with different motors, different fuel, different body, etc... only Agni IIP shares the same design....

Agreed.Thats very good.

 

[The Deterrent]

I am pointing the shortcomings of working on old technologies.... Pakistan should introduce newer generation BMs...... to counter India's ABM/BMD systems.

I understand what you are trying to say.That Pakistan should introduce systems like Shaurya,BrahMos,Prahaar to effectively modernize its Ballistic missiles.
You have to understand,that Pakistan does not have the money for these type of new and expensive projects.I will also post about the possible improvements that could be made on the existing systems in a while.

 

[muse]

India have an operational ABM system ? Do tell...

 

[IndianArmy]

India have an operational ABM system ? Do tell...

India might not have an operational ABM yet, but we do have an air defence SAM(AKASH) tested in Anti-ballistic missile roles just like Patriots of US.

 

[LiberalAtheist]

for the ones who don't know India's ABM is not just for defense against Ballistic missiles but low flying cruise missiles so the Babur and Raa'd have been countered here is proof AAD

the ABM currently has ability to protect against missiles of the 2,000km range class however soon it will be upgraded to 5,000km with 3 new missiles like the AD-1 AD-2 and the PDV and in that case any missile threat from Pakistan will have been taken care of as anything above 3,000km would overshoot India to defend against Chinese missiles we need missiles that can intercept missiles of the ~7,000km range class (from Harbin to Sulur is around 6,500km) it is unclear about our ABM there are reports we may still procure Israeli Arrow 2 missiles or that we are interested in S-400/S-500 systems, and even NATO willing to help India in missile defense

right we will have to wait and see but once when the ABM is up and running (by 2015) Pakistan will be at a serious disposition

 

[Developereo]

India has a huge coastline. A huge Pakistani fleet of submarine based missiles would keep India guessing which coast to defend.

 

[cyphercide]

Its not about the speed but a sudden increase in number of targets..... even scuds disintegrating in terminal stages were difficult to intercept since they made many threats or targets for ABMs.

Well,let's agree to disagree on this context.I still would consider singular lower atmosphere hypersonic ballistic missiles a bigger concern with it's lower flight-time and the higher probability of it evading radars.

 

[LiberalAtheist]

India has a huge coastline. A huge Pakistani fleet of submarine based missiles would keep India guessing which coast to defend.

which is why the AESA ABM radars are designed to cover areas the size of at least 3,000 square km plus we have spy satellites so the element of surprise is really taken away

 

[drunken-monke]

India has a huge coastline. A huge Pakistani fleet of submarine based missiles would keep India guessing which coast to defend.

Well you are right and Indian Navy will only guess where to search for these Submarines. after all, all thoes P8 are only for having a plesant flight over sea dont you think??