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Why Islam took a violent and intolerant turn in Pakistan

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Vcheng, How can you enforce people to discuss only those points raised by you? There are different ppl with there POV who thinks that topic should their thinking as well and I dont see any issue out of that.

I am just a participant like you here. It is up to Mods and Admin to enforce rules as they see fit. I am trying to keep things on track but failing miserably.
 
Actually, the topic are the four reasons that The Economist suggested as to why Islam took that tragic turn in Pakistan.

Dude I hope you are not dumb? Islam = Quran Hadis Sunnah! its only the followers "Muslims" who took violent and ignorant turn! Is it too hard to comprehend?
 
Dude I hope you are not dumb? Islam = Quran Hadis Sunnah! its only the followers "Muslims" who took violent and ignorant turn! Is it too hard to comprehend?

I hope that the content and quality of MY posts compared to YOURS (and some others) speak for themselves loud enough to let people judge who is and who is not! :D
 
No one consumes it.
What a liar you are proving to be!
It is a figment of fevered delight of some Pakistanis. Little things please little mind.
I have not seen any Camel urine products advertisements in Pakistan nor I have heard any Pakistanis consume it as "holy" drink. Yes maybe by some POOR people who know that by consuming camel urine will cure their illness and I dough they would still do it since it would sound nonsense to them because they are illiterates. But in India its a common practice by many, go google it!

Cow urine, not being in the scriptures, is not holy.It is a part of Ayurveda just like Unani. Unani has nothing to do with religion, or does it?
I dont know what Ayurveda or unani is neither I care. What ever the case Hindus in India consider it as "Holy" and consider cow as walking pharmacy.
I saw someone who informed you that camel urine therapy is sanctioned by your scripture.
Yes it is, under a specific circumstances. Like when you have no other option and know Camel urine will cure your illness but this matter seems to be beyond your poor comprehension level and thats why you are resorting to your usual childish remarks.

To my mind, your raising irrelevant issues repeatedly that have been clarified before, indicates a touch of asinine stubborn mischievous intent to inflame.
you have clearly portrayed yourself in your lame attempt to point fingers at others.

Of course, I am not bothered, since I find it so sadly juvenile!
Are you not the one who is acting childish.
btw Indians scientists proved in 21st century that cow urine can cure some illness while in our case it was proved in 5th century ;)
 
I dont understand why we debating on Islam with non-muslims as they dont know about Islam.
Debating with Non-muslims for Islam is like ILaaj with neem Hakeem....
 
I dont understand why we debating on Islam with non-muslims as they dont know about Islam.
Debating with Non-muslims for Islam is like ILaaj with neem Hakeem....

And what is the guarantee that 170 milion people out there in Pakistan knows what Islam is?.. When you want a root cause you need not to look for one perspective and involve others.. Right now every one has its own way of Islam in Pakistan..Some likes to kill Salman Taseer, Kill Ahmadiyyas, Hate Shiyas, Explode Bombs outside Sufi Shrine.. While there are plenty of others who are against of all this.. Hence there is still a search of "Absolute" Islam..If you find it then share with us..
 
And what is the guarantee that 170 milion people out there in Pakistan knows what Islam is?.. When you want a root cause you need not to look for one perspective and involve others.. Right now every one has its own way of Islam in Pakistan..Some likes to kill Salman Taseer, Kill Ahmadiyyas, Hate Shiyas, Explode Bombs outside Sufi Shrine.. While there are plenty of others who are against of all this.. Hence there is still a search of "Absolute" Islam..If you find it then share with us..

if i say something to you then you will call it conspiracy ...i think you should stay away from things ,you dont know..
 
One hundred percent in agreement.. The answer to your question(in bold) is pretty simple and tragic though. Its always the vocal minority that gets more attention than the silent majority. No one in the world hears the peaceful muslims because they are peaceful. And only a small fraction of extremists capture all the eyeballs.

Just as when you think of Germany, the 1st thing you remember is Hitler..

well said but its actually annoying. I have seen that this rule only apply to muslims. I have seen in westren countries that when a non muslim commit some crime or kill someone or do rape then western media will do reporting by saying that person x killed person y without mention his nationality or religion. You will never hear that britsih Christian Richard killed two peoples but if a muslim commit same crime then they will mention his religion that a paksitani(even if you are british born) muslim guy Raja killed person Y and even they will start showing the pictures of mosque before the crime actually get proven in courts.
 
And what is the guarantee that 170 milion people out there in Pakistan knows what Islam is?.. When you want a root cause you need not to look for one perspective and involve others.. Right now every one has its own way of Islam in Pakistan..Some likes to kill Salman Taseer, Kill Ahmadiyyas, Hate Shiyas, Explode Bombs outside Sufi Shrine.. While there are plenty of others who are against of all this.. Hence there is still a search of "Absolute" Islam..If you find it then share with us..

You wont find "absolute" Islam anywhere but in Islam itself. If allah wanted he could have made every human being obedient to him 24/7 but the whole point of creating Mankind was to let them make decision on their own and Allah revealed his guidance to them to fallow.
 
So, Why did Islam turn violent in Pakistan -- That is the focus of the Thread -- The Islamican brigade has offered that Islam is not violent in Pakistan but it's Muslims who are violent in Pakistan, this is a reflection of their moral and intellectual bankruptcy, after what they are arguing is that Islam and Muslims have no relationship. Failing this their position is to ask that the thread be closed.

Now, others have offered that Islam in the hands of the ignorant, lead to a ignorant islam -- Now, that's a reasonable positon, it's rather obvious, but the Islamican brigade cannot have that, because it put their claim that nothing about Islam changes to a lie --- see, when the lens of the observer change, the object being observed changes - right?? Obvious, right?? But see, the Islamican cannot agree with that, and it has to do with their Utopian ideology.

You will recall that some will suggest that "true islam" is X, Y and Z and all other "Islam" are rubbish --- In other words "pluralism" does not exist within islam (in other words the idea that there as many ways to God as there are faithful, is a lie).

But why does Pluralism in Islam have to be denied and "fought against"??? Utopia!! After all, how many versions of Utopia can there be? See, since there is this mutiplicity, it makes control and arrest of change, problematic --- Just consider, why are Talib blowing up shrines?? There can be only one way for the Islamican and everybody else is in blasphemy and of course we know that for the sake of God and the loveof the Prophet, bombing and killing becomes a religious duty, acts of conviction (for they cannot be acts of faith, Islamicans can by definition not have FAITH, though they have plenty of certitude)

So, friends, why is Islam in Pakistan, violent??, Why is it intolerant?

Because it is informed by ideas hostile, aggressive ideas ---

But wait, doesn't that mean there is some "true islam" somewhere?? See, I told you there had to be, it's just hidden or maybe it's holding out in Turkiye??

No it's it's not, sorry - Islam is and always will be what it's adherents, Muslims (muzlums) practice. And see, since they practice in so many different ways, to suggest that there is a single "true" correct" way is to declare war on all others - Oh, wait, so that's why Islam in Pakistan is violent
 
But the concepts of humanity are not enforced through some sort of system whereby the subjects feel that their actions will be judged or rewarded. Thus religion plays an important role especially for those who do not understand humanity.

Other than religion there are atleast two other systems which judge our actions. One is the Law of the state, which we can see can exist independent of the religious teachings. The other is the society itself and how it looks on the actions. The basis for judgment by the society can be purely cultural.

Extremism is another form of self developed infatuation with religion that makes a subject feel that the entire purpose of life is secondary to the propagation of religion. This is another reason which should entice observers to note that the purpose of religion becomes ineffective once the idea itself is used for reasons it was not meant to be used for.

In terms of equality, I agree but you cannot call any religion to be true, they are mere beliefs.

I agree with this part.

The values existed but they were not practiced entirely, take for example the region where Saudi Arabia exists today, some of the practices pre Islamic era were just downright inhumane but they were part of these societies and it was only religion that changed them.

I cant say anything about pre Islamic Arabia as i know very little about it. however keep in mind that those societies might have been demonised by the newly spreading Islam to present the "other" and promote itself as the better way of life. Of course there is an equal chance that they were as bad as you say they are.

The second point is that these values were enforced much more strongly in nonreligious societies than you are implying. Take the tribes of tropical Africa. There very little crime takes place within the tribe. There are also recorded cases where hunters in some south american tribes share their hunt as a social custom with the only return being social standing. This is another example of cultural and social forces moulding human nature towards compassion and truthfulness.
You may also find "barbaric" rituals too in such societies. Some societies left their old to die in the cold if there was little to eat. But these were necessiated by the circumstances. The society would have been wiped out if the old were fed instead of the hunters who could get more food.

Not all societies, in fact societies evolved to encompass more and according to times. Before religion, it was local customs and practices that took precedence over everything else, many of which were like the values taught by religion but they faltered later. Since the inception of religion, the idea was to guide humanity towards a more just society whereby religion would be the tool to govern, develop and implement law and uphold the core values which were slowly withering away

These local customs turned into religions. Hinduism can be taken as an example. It is very very fractured. Even books like Ramayana have multiple versions. One of my South Indian friends told me about the version in South India where Ravan was the hero instead of Ram.
Hinduism isnt a single codified religion. Virtually no ritual is common to all parts of India. This is because each part had its own culture and corresponding religion. Hinduism is just the mish mash of all of those beliefs.
Even monotheirstic religions like Islam and christianity have splintered slightly due to the pressure of local customs.

I dont think religion was intended to be anything. It just was, an extention of the beliefs of a certain group which dominated others and convinced/forced others to follow those beliefs

I agree but the 'codification' is key here because without any enforcer, these values are useless. Much like you need a government to implement laws and make sure their subjects abide by them.

As I mentioned above, societies indeed try and enforce these values themselves with or without religious justification. just remember the hunter sharing his meat.

Not necessarily, religion always took the best of what was present in the society, in terms of practices and gave them a spiritual outlook.

we agree on this part then. religion took from the values of the society and not the other way round
 
Waste of time... not only know the guy inside out also challenged him in Public half a dozen times but he refused to engage... I challenged him thru the Harun Yahya platform... Dawkins made fun of fishhooks in his books but ran away like a coward from public debate on evolution...

good advice from me... dont waste time on Dawkins... he is nt a man of science rather a fanatic atheist...



So you believe god made everything???
 
And all of your answers are almost wrong, because many of the posters here are not specific to the thread title/topic and making their ways including a "think tank"...
 
I ran across this interesting little piece and though you may enjoy it :








My April Fool’s Day message to all Muslim brothers and sisters!


By Sahil Khan

Religions are calculated to create in the minds of their followers long-lasting moods and behaviour patterns. They indelibly shape the worldviews of their followers, they way they look at and act towards themselves, others and the world around them. At the risk of too broad a generalisation, one can talk of two typical moods or frames of mind and behaviour generated by two very different and competing understandings or interpretations of Islam. The first mood, associated with a once dominant form of ‘inner Islam’ or Sufism, reflects in its followers’ values such as gentleness, humility, compassion, love, generosity and cheerfulness. It leads one to consider the spark of God as being present in every particle of the universe, and, on that basis, leads to a universal love that transcends all barriers, including religion, class and gender. It conduces to celebration, joy and laughter, which is expressed in song, poetry, art and aesthetics. Sufis and Sufi-inspired Muslims (and some non-Muslims, too) were once the vanguard of artistic and intellectual creativity in the Muslim world.

The Sufi form of Islam, which its proponents insist is indeed the authentic Islam, has been increasingly overshadowed over the years by a virulent, harsh and brutal reading of the faith, most notoriously characterised by the Wahhabis of Saudi Arabia, the Deobandis and Ahle Hadith in South Asia, and groups such as al Qaeda in some other parts of the world. This version of ‘Islam’, which, for purposes of convenience, can be called the Wahhabi-Deobandi ideology, is calculated to promote precisely a mood and character precisely the opposite of that of the Sufis, being based on hatred and harshness, privileging a rigid textualism that drains religious experience of its spiritual content. It is premised on unrelenting opposition to and conflict against other religions and other readings of Islam. It is manifested in a seemingly never-ceasing cycle of violence and killing, in relentless suppression of women and minorities, and in hate-spewing mullahs stirring their awe-struck followers from the pulpits of their mosques with fear and trepidation, vengeance and hate. Its followers are easily recognisable: they wear a permanent scowl on their faces, and completely lack a sense of humour. They ardently believe they are God’s khalifas and are best qualified to bring the entire world under their domination, only if what they readily brand as the kuffar, that is all of humanity but themselves, would let them. Painfully self-righteous, they are convinced, so their mullahs have driven them to believe, that they are destined to monopolise heaven, and that the rest of humankind is doomed to eternal punishment in hell.

This latter version of Islam has, in recent decades and for a variety of reasons, become the dominant expression of the faith over large parts of the world, although, it is important to note, it wrongly arrogates to itself the mantle of Islamic ‘authenticity’. While much can be said about the Wahhabi-Deobandi ideology and the havoc it is creating for the image of Islam worldwide and for, and in, the lives of its followers (and others, Muslims and non-Muslims, affected by their presence, too), this essay focuses on just four key aspects of the phenomenon, using the case of a curious email message that I received last week to illustrate a broader argument.


On the first day of this month, when I switched on my computer and checked into my Inbox, I spotted a curiously titled e-mail message. ‘April Fool’s Day: An Important Notice’, it announced. Presuming it to be a light-hearted April Fool’s Day prank, I opened it only to discover a long and bitter harangue against this harmless occasion of joy. The mail was an impassioned appeal to Muslims to desist from having their bit of fun on April Fool’s Day. It had been circulated on the Internet by—you guessed it right!—a self-righteous Muslim of the Wahhabi-Deobandi brand, the sort who can never stop obsessing about their deluded belief in being God’s chosen people.

In order to understand the import of the mail, a brief digression focussing on four principal aspects of the Wahhabi-Deobandi ideology and the permanent mood it creates in its followers is in order here. The first aspect of the Wahhabi-Deobandi ideology that needs to be considered in this regard is the fact that it is premised on a fanatic insistence that it alone represents the truth, and that all other belief systems, including other versions of Islam, are fatally false. This belief, a cardinal aspect of the ideology of Wahhabi-Deobandism, necessitates the constant promotion of hatred towards others, both other Muslims as well as non-Muslims. All non-Wahhabi-Deobandis are branded together as supposed ‘enemies’— of Muslims, of Islam and of God.

They are often depicted as sinister ‘friends of the devil’, as allegedly constantly engaged in ‘conspiracies’ to distort and destroy the ‘true believers’ faith. All manner of conspiracy theories are invented to reinforce this bogus belief that has no sanction in the holy Quran and is also completely at odds with the universal love preached by the true exemplars of Islam, the Sufis. Muslims (by which is meant adherents of Wahhabi-Deobandism) must always remain in a state of alert, constantly defensive of their faith, because, it is repeated ad nauseum by the clerics of this creed, the ‘unbelievers’ never spare a moment in their ceaseless ‘plots’ against them and their faith.

Keeping this in mind, it is easy to recognise how and why the Wahhabi-Deobandi is, by definition, a principle factor for what is called Islamophobia, which has grown alongside the exponential expansion of Wahhabi-Deobandism in recent years, in part as a reaction to it. Wherever the supremacist Wahhabi-Deobandi ideology has spread, it has invariably provoked mounted opposition to Muslims and Islam, for it is premised on a firm opposition to cordial relations with others. In societies where Muslims and others lived together in peace and harmony for centuries, where Sufis were the vehicle for the spread of Islam, attracting scores of non-Muslims, too, to their learning circles and shrines, this poisonous ideology has succeeded in fomenting communal hatred and violence and creating deep-rooted animosities to Islam where they did not exist before.

Linked to this inherent maniacal tendency of Wahhabism-Deobandism that rests on generating unrelenting hostility towards the rest of humanity is a second aspect of the Wahhabi-Deobandi ideology — its utter intellectual poverty. This has caused havoc for the state of scientific and creative thought and imagination among Muslims infected by this virus the world over. The Wahhabi-Deobandi ideology is based on an unthinking assent to the dictums of half-baked mullahs, who are viscerally averse to any innovative thinking, to any idea outside their narrow and extremely suffocating self-created framework. Wherever this ideology has spread, often with the help of hefty petro-dollar financing, Muslims have suffered an immense intellectual, besides moral, decline.

Linked to the two above-mentioned aspects of Wahhabism-Deobandism is a third aspect of this pernicious ideology: a marked tendency to blame others (non-Muslims as well as other Muslims) for all the ills of the Muslims, and a stunning refusal to introspect, to recognise the Muslims’ culpability both for their own decline as well as for the sufferings that Muslims may have caused for others. This is yet another aspect of Wahhabism-Deobandism that sets it neatly apart from the ‘inner Islam’ of the Sufis, which is based on the search within and what is called the ‘blaming of the self’.

A fourth aspect of the ideology of Wahhabi-Deobandism is its total lack of humour. It stands for a stultifying, dehumanising way of life, morose, haunting and tomb-like, deadening in its utter seriousness, harshness and brutality. If the joy shared by the Sufis was one of the many gifts that attracted scores of non-Muslims to Islam, the brutal gravity of the Wahhabi-Deobandis drives non-Muslims to the other extreme, repelling them far from Islam. All things of beauty and joy are considered anathema in the ideology of Wahhabi-Deobandism — be it song and dance, art and creativity, and even simple occasions for harmless fun, as I will now explain, such as good old April Fool’s Day.


The four key aspects of Wahhabi-Deobandism just outlined are clearly expressed in the mail denouncing April Fool’s Day that found its way, quite uninvited, into my Yahoo! Inbox the other day. In an impassioned appeal to Muslims to desist from playing pranks and having innocent fun on April Fool’s Day, the anonymous sender of the mail claimed that the event actually commemorated a sinister plot hatched by what it called ‘The Christians of the West’ or, alternately, ‘unbelievers’, to topple Muslim rule in Spain and to ‘wipe out Islam from all parts of the world’. For this purpose, it went on, ‘the unbelievers’ sent batches of their spies to Spain, where they freely distributed alcohol and cigarettes among the Spanish Muslims in order to tempt them to stray from Islam. This, they hoped, would cause them to degenerate and would lead to their political downfall. This ‘plot’ gradually succeeded, so the mail claims, and, finally, on the 1st of April (the sender of the mail leaves the year unmentioned), Granada, the last bastion of Spanish Muslim rule, finally fell to the plotting Christians. And that was why and how, the mail argued, the Christians decided to celebrate the 1st of April every year to mark their victory over the Muslims by having fooled them into defeat by a mere prank — causing their degeneration and final fall by enticing them away from their faith with free cigarettes and alcohol.

‘We, the Muslims, were fooled by the unbelievers,’ the mail wailed. ‘They have a reason to celebrate April Fool’s Day, to keep up the spirit.’ ‘Dear brothers and sisters,’ the mail ardently appealed in conclusion, ‘when we join in this celebration, we do so out of ignorance. If we had known about it, we would never have celebrated our own downfall. So now, that we are aware of it, and now let us promise that we shall never celebrate this day. We should learn our lesson from the people of Spain, and shall try to become practising Muslims, never to let anybody weaken our faith. The case of this curious e-mail message brilliantly illustrates what I have described as the permanent mood that Wahhabism-Deobandism is bent on creating and reinforcing in the minds of its hapless victims: a complete lack of humour and a ferocious opposition to even the small pleasures of life, such as celebration and joy and a bit of fun on April Fools’ Day; unrelenting hatred towards other communities, based on wild and untenable generalisations about them as ‘plotters’ against Islam (and thus providing convenient fodder for the spread of Islamophobia); an utter intellectual sterility, characterised by a deadening and stultifying understanding of religion and history, often based on patent falsehoods (internecine wars among the Spanish Muslims were as much a cause of the fall of Muslim power there as were Christian attacks; cigarettes were invited years after the fall of Granada; Granada was re-conquered on the 12th of January, not, as the mail claims, the 1st of April. April Fool’s Day has nothing even remotely to do with the Spanish Muslims and their downfall, but was probably invented in France more than a century later to mark a dispute between two groups of Christians over the Gregorian calendar!).


Here’s my advice to the hapless folks who might have fallen prey to the sender of the angry anti-April Fool’s Day mail: Let down your hair, have a bit of fun and spring a prank on someone to bring some joy into your lives and of others around you. If you think God and religion are all about moaning and mourning, as the sender of this mail probably does, you can continue to wallow in your self-created sorrow and curse the world for thinking you are painfully insufferable, but let me have my share of fun! My God loves fun, too!
 
A REALISTIC ANALYSIS What is religion?
A simple answer to this question is "A requitable way." Every religion has two basic facets:
(i) Spiritual (belief)
(ii) Practical (rituals).
Spiritual facet has two further parts: (i) Perceptible (ii) Non-Perceptible The practical facet has also two more branches: (i) Spiritual (ii) Moral Each of them is further divided into two branches: (i) rational (ii) mandatory. There are things, which are forbidden or allowed by the reason and there are others which have been forbidden or allowed by God's order. So good and evil are of two kinds. One kind is specified by human reason and the other is defined by the prophets in the light of divine revelations.

For comprehensive study: Last Reformer Compiled
 
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