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Myths of 1971–Time for Redemption

I mean there are some things about the instrument of surrender which is funny, such as it originally being called a ceasefire agreement to it called a surrender last minute, but that's all just hearsay for now unless someone can prove it.
Highly possible. But India dicatated the terms because it was in position to do that. Now it is officially called “instrument of surrender”.

5th floor of the Serena Hotel.
That idiot Arnab is not India. I have’t seen any of his programs in years.
Such idiots exit on your side too. Laal topi comes to mind right away.

India has decided to create lots and lots of myths about the Pak-Indo wars in general, such as the 93,000 soldiers POW figure, sinking of the PNS Ghazi, victory at Lahore, victory at Kargil,
In every war there are battles. Likely that both sides would have won few of them each. And there is an overall outcome. All nations celebrate the valour of soldiers who die for the nation, even when they loose a war. India has innumerable such accounts of 1962 war. We celebrate few battles and valour of soldiers who fought in those battles. That doesn’t make India a winner. Nehru and his government messed up.

That is the issue here. People quote a certain battle and start celebrating. They contest a specific battle and try to make that appear as an outcome of that entire conflict.

Nations start a war with an aim. If they fail to achieve that aim then it’s a failure and not a victory.
1965 and Kargil fall in that category. Both initiated by Paksiatn. By Generals gone loose. Generals who didn’t take anyone in confidence. Not even other services in case of Kargil. Without proper assessment of various possibilities resulting in stalemate in 1965 and your PM knocking at the doors of the White House after Kargil.

It is not about valour of soldiers. They fight and fight for honour with bravery.
It is the higher ups who fail them by throwing them into impossible situations.
 
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@Signalian this was the stamp released by your very own Pakistan. Read the numbers carefully.

Everything changes post facto with Pakistan. Why? Gradual change of facts to twist and change the history.

For Paksiatn, 1965 was a win. There have been many attempts already to turn Kargil into a victory. Now it’s turn of 1971?

East Pakistan was part of Pakistan. Pakistan should have deployed adequate assets for its security. Why didn’t you? Because it wasn’t considered Pakistan enough? What a shameful fact.

Later on claiming “we lost because of inadequate forces” smells of refusing to face the facts.Your entire Army was intact or you could have done this or that has no meaning now. Your Lt Gen sat down and signed the surrender papers. Pakistan surrendered on that fateful day.

Now claiming in hindsight that you could have fought on and defeated the entire universe is immaterial.

View attachment 904979
Also not to forget that Pakistan army had recruited 50,000 razakars (trained irregular soldiers) to assist them in the war.

93000 POW does not include Razakars. They were not accorded the same rights under Geneva convention for POW.

Who were the Razakars?

The Razakars were an auxiliary force of the Pakistan army during the 1971 Bangladesh War. Composed of mostly pro-Pakistani Bengalis and Biharis from Bangladesh (formerly East Pakistan), the approximate 50,000 Razakars assisted the army in raids against the local population and were accused of committing horrific atrocities.

1670766069652.png
 
Also not to forget that Pakistan army had recruited 50,000 razakars (trained irregular soldiers) to assist them in the war.

93000 POW does not include Razakars. They were not accorded the same rights under Geneva convention for POW.
Thanks for the information. Actually, this number thing is a little messed up.

I don’t even want to get into it. @PanzerKiel has thrown some light in his post.

I have objection to the fact that few people are trying to turn this into a lesser defeat than it was. These same people will come up with something new few years down the line and it would be turned into a grand victory.
Their argument? Your numbers are wrong so…….
 
Also not to forget that Pakistan army had recruited 50,000 razakars (trained irregular soldiers) to assist them in the war.

93000 POW does not include Razakars. They were not accorded the same rights under Geneva convention for POW.

Who were the Razakars?

The Razakars were an auxiliary force of the Pakistan army during the 1971 Bangladesh War. Composed of mostly pro-Pakistani Bengalis and Biharis from Bangladesh (formerly East Pakistan), the approximate 50,000 Razakars assisted the army in raids against the local population and were accused of committing horrific atrocities.

View attachment 905014
Thanks for the information. Actually, this number thing is a little messed up.

I don’t even want to get into it. @PanzerKiel has thrown some light in his post.

I have objection to the fact that few people are trying to turn this into a lesser defeat than it was. These same people will come up with something new few years down the line and it would be turned into a grand victory.
Their argument? Your numbers are wrong so…….

That (if genuine) still puts Pakistan's fighting strength at less than hundred thousand. Mukti had over a hundred thousand fighters itself, trained and equipped by the Indians. Combo that with the Indian forces, and months long air and naval blockade, still odds do not improve in Pakistan's favor.
 
That (if genuine) still puts Pakistan's fighting strength at less than hundred thousand. Mukti had over a hundred thousand fighters itself, trained and equipped by the Indians. Combo that with the Indian forces, and months long air and naval blockade, still odds do not improve in Pakistan's favor.
Yes you are right. Odds were never in favour of Paksiatn. Pakistan should have done this assessment. If not then it indicates poor work culture at GHQ. Mukti Bahini training camps couldn’t have been kept top secret. What was Pakistan intelligence doing?

I would echo the same sentiment for 1965 and Kargil too for reasons stated in my previous posts.
 
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Highly possible. But India dicatated the terms because it was in position to do that. Now it is officially called “instrument of surrender”.


That idiot Arnab is not India. I have’t seen any of his programs in years.
Such idiots exit on your side too. Laal topi comes to mind right away.


In every war there are battles. Likely that both sides would have won few of them each. And there is an overall outcome. All nations celebrate the valour of soldiers who die for the nation, even when they loose a war. India has innumerable such accounts of 1962 war. We celebrate few battles and valour of soldiers who fought in those battles. That doesn’t make India a winner. Nehru and his government messed up.

That is the issue here. People quote a certain battle and start celebrating. They contest a specific battle and try to make that appear as an outcome of that entire conflict.

Nations start a war with an aim. If they fail to achieve that aim then it’s a failure and not a victory.
1965 and Kargil fall in that category. Both initiated by Paksiatn. By Generals gone loose. Generals who didn’t take anyone in confidence. Not even other services in case of Kargil. Without proper assessment of various possibilities resulting in stalemate in 1965 and your PM knocking at the doors of the White House after Kargil.

It is not about valour of soldiers. They fight and fight for honour with bravery.
It is the higher ups who fail them by throwing them into impossible situations.
Arnab does what arnab wants, he's a funny bastard. But that doesn't mean to say that others didn't fan out the propaganda further, spewing it all over the Internet.


I agree with the rest of your post up until you mention 65 and kargil.

With 65 and Kargil, it was India that pushed past the IB and formally declared war on Pakistan, with the aim of taking Lahore, Singh and GT Road. None of those objectives were met. Every single one of them failed miserably. As for Kargil, India did not complete operation vijay which was to take back all the peaks and posts occupied by Pakistan. India only took back 2 in the initial conflict and later took 2 more after wards. The other 4 peaks remain under Pakistani control. 8 peaks were taken, we still have half of them. That's not a victory
 
Arnab does what arnab wants, he's a funny bastard. But that doesn't mean to say that others didn't fan out the propaganda further, spewing it all over the Internet.
I would take it a little further. Indian mainstream media has gone crazy. They pick up a story and give so many twists that most of them are like poor quality entertainment channels. They do spew propaganda all the time. But it is not about Pakistan only. They do it about anything and everything that suits their owner.
When it concerns Pakistan it goes to another level. They all try and outdo each other to prove who is more nationalistic.
Can’t do anything about it. I have stopped watching any TV news.
With 65 and Kargil, it was India that pushed past the IB and formally declared war on Pakistan, with the aim of taking Lahore, Singh and GT Road. None of those objectives were met. Every single one of them failed miserably. As for Kargil, India did not complete operation vijay which was to take back all the peaks and posts occupied by Pakistan. India only took back 2 in the initial conflict and later took 2 more after wards. The other 4 peaks remain under Pakistani control. 8 peaks were taken, we still have half of them. That's not a victory
Same issue had cropped up into a previous discussion when one of the think tanks had made it clear that Paksiatn was the one who started Op Gibraltar with a certain aim. You are again latching on to individual peaks, roads and bridges and trying to twist it into a victory.

During Kargil, It was your PM at the behest of Musharraf knocking at White House. If it was a victory, to tum ko hi mubarak ho aisi victory jisme PM White House ke aage khada ho. Laanat hai aisi victory ko.

1965 was a stalemate. Pakistan tried to capture Kashmir and failed. Who launched a thrust where and tried to capture what is of no value here. They were all small battles in a war.

1971 you lost.
 
In 1971
Population of West Pakistan 58 Million
Population of East Pakistan 65 Million
Kisi aur ko ja kar bewquuf banao yaar ye lambe lambe bogus articles likh kar.

It was not a distant province of Pakistan.This narrative of "It was cutoff from mainland Pakistan" is total BS and excuse from those who failed us in 1971. The Generals and their Cup bearing west Pakistani Politicians.

East was 60% of Pakistan. Why Bengali Pakistanis did'nt fought side by side with you? 60% population was traitor?.

Who ever accepts this narrative of a clean West Pakistan in East Pakistan Tragedy, Uski aqal ko salam.

The only difference in East Pakistan and west Pakistan is that they were united. We are divided on every level through out our history.
 
Yes you are right. Odds were never in favour of Paksiatn. Pakistan should have done this assessment. If not then it indicates poor work culture at GHQ. Mukti Bahini training camps couldn’t have been kept top secret. What was Pakistan intelligence doing?

I would echo the same sentiment for 1965 and Kargil too for reasons stated in my previous posts.
I am not at all saying that our war efforts weren't fucked up. When it's a war, most important thing that matters is victory. However, the devil is always in the details. So when you people try to portray this as an immaculate textbook victory to today's world and your people, for obvious reasons, we would counter you on that. That the Indians played as they wished (read: dirty), and got shit done. They weren't the righteous white knights in saffron armor, that liberated awaiting malnourished and exploited people of East Pakistan.That the situation was quite the contrary to what Ministry of 'Liberation war affairs' and the Indian establishment would want the 🌎 to believe...
 
I am not at all saying that our war efforts weren't fucked up. When it's a war, most important thing that matters is victory. However, the devil is always in the details. So when you people try to portray this as an immaculate textbook victory to today's world and your people, for obvious reasons, we would counter you on that. That the Indians played as they wished (read: dirty), and got shit done. They weren't the righteous white knights in saffron armor, that liberated awaiting malnourished and exploited people of East Pakistan.That the situation was quite the contrary to what Ministry of 'Liberation war affairs' and the Indian establishment would want the 🌎 to believe...
History has been always dictated by the victors. This has happened since time immemorial.

No one is claiming that India was a saviour in shining armour. But it was not far removed either.
Would you like to know the number of refugees in India after Op searchlight? Did Paksiatn play clean with its own citizens? You were not even ready to handover the power to clear winners. Why? Because your skin is fairer? Come on friend.

I don’t know what is playing clean or dirty in a war or against an adversary. Has Paksiatn ever played clean with India? Starting with 1948. Did it play clean with US in Afghanistan? Nations play for their own good. Not clean or dirty.

Operation searchlight was a known operation of oppression against East Pakistanis. There are enough quotes from your then PM and the Army chief clearly laying out the plan of action for East Paksiatn. Google can bring out those audio and videos for anyone keen to introspect.

Stop blaming India for turn of events.
 
History has been always dictated by the victors. This has happened since time immemorial.

No one is claiming that India was a saviour in shining armour. But it was not far removed either.
Would you like to know the number of refugees in India after Op searchlight? Did Paksiatn play clean with its own citizens? You were not even ready to handover the power to clear winners. Why? Because your skin is fairer? Come on friend.

I don’t know what is playing clean or dirty in a war or against an adversary. Has Paksiatn ever played clean with India? Starting with 1948. Did it play clean with US in Afghanistan? Nations play for their own good. Not clean or dirty.

Operation searchlight was a known operation of oppression against East Pakistanis. There are enough quotes from your then PM and the Army chief clearly laying out the plan of action for East Paksiatn. Google can bring out those audio and videos for anyone keen to introspect.

Stop blaming India for turn of events.
1) kargil was a "operation" not a "war" termed by your notunki media and bollywood brigade always.

2) we never attacked india ; kashmir is a disputed territory between india and pakistan , 1948, 1965(start) and 1999 operation was all hapened in kashmir !

3) how much time you guys needed to start celeberating fictional 1965 so called victory ? 15 years back ?

4) ok we deployed less soldiers in east pakistan so ? why you purchased less capable jet fighters and tanks in 1965? is it our fault ?

5) what objective did you meet by supporting mukti bahini ? coming into the light of so called victory ; is bangladesh is merged with india ? does they support your cricket team? in ind vs pak matches? ! you cant suppress the natural sentiments of people , the problem with you ppl is your brought up.,that is totally in the delusional notunki bollywood world , we have seen galwan and those misleading figures of your generals , it is the habit of yours by inheritance to fog out the facts , lols 93k prisoners and rapes etc bla bla bulshit.
 
Myth 5: Genocide of three Million Bengalis

The nonsensical figure of ‘three million genocide’ first appeared in an editorial of the Soviet Communist Party’s newspaper, Pravda. The same newspaper, days before publishing the figure, had asked in an editorial, “how many people of Bangladesh have been killed?” before coming up with the fictitious number. Syed Karim, Bangladesh’s first Foreign Secretary, who authored Sheikh Mujib: Triumph and Tragedy, the definitive biography on the life of Sheikh Mujib, writes, “As for the number of Bengalis killed in the course of the liberation war, the figure of 3 million mentioned by Mujib to David Frost in January 1972, was a gross overstatement.

This figure was picked up by him from an article in Pravda.”
Serajur Rahman, a British journalist of Bengali Muslim descent, in a letter titled, Mujib’s Confusion on Bangladeshi Deaths to The Guardian in 2011, wrote, “On 8 January 1972, I was the first Bangladeshi to meet independence leader, Sheikh Mujibur Rahman after his release from Pakistan... I explained that no accurate figure of the casualties was available but our estimate, based on information from various sources, was that up to three lakh (300,000) died in the conflict. To my surprise and horror, he told David Frost later that ‘three million of my people’ were killed by the Pakistanis. Whether he mistranslated ‘lakh’ as ‘million’ or his confused state of mind was responsible, I don't know, but many Bangladeshis still believe a figure of three million is unrealistic and incredible.”

M. Abdul Mu'min Chowdhury, a native of Sylhet and a Bengali nationalist who was a teacher at Dhaka University, explains in his book, Behind the Myth of Three Million, that after the fall of Dhaka, Sheikh Mujib formally instituted a 12-member inquiry committee to prove the validity of his claims. However, the draft report came with a casualty figure of 56,743, which included the mass killings.

Sarmila Bose in her book, Dead Reckoning writes that the claim of three million dead has been used widely by journalists and academia without any verification. They have failed to provide a single reference.

Richard Sisson and Leo Rose carried out detailed research on the birth of Bangladesh in their book, War and Secession: Pakistan, India, and the Creation of Bangladesh. The authors interviewed two Indian officials who had held responsible positions on the issue of Bangladesh in 1971. When questioned about the actual number of deaths in Bangladesh in 1971 attributable to the civil war, one replied “about 300,000.” Then, when he received a disapproving glance from his colleague, he changed it to “300,000 to 500,000...”

Lieutenant General Jagjit Singh Aurora, Commander in Chief of the Eastern Command of Indian Army, during the 1971 War rejected the three million figure. He said that Mujib’s figure was ‘absolutely impossible’ because Pakistan Army had ‘simultaneously fought within the country and at the borders.’
Renowned researchers have proved that 3 million was an impossible number in the time and geographic span. Most scholars and analysts conclude that the number of deaths in 1971 was between 50,000 and 100,000 people and that includes the mass killings of Biharis and West Pakistanis.
I've heard that the Bengali "genocide" was exaggerated. And some things really don't make sense.
 
These Myths will remain intact as long as efforts are made to hide Hamood ur Rehman commission report and some others.

All commanders in E. Pak before the war seriously disagreed with carrying out a military operation and demanded transfer of power. Friends of Pakistan also demanded the same.

This myth clearing will remain a cry in the wild.
 
History has been always dictated by the victors. This has happened since time immemorial.

No one is claiming that India was a saviour in shining armour. But it was not far removed either.
Would you like to know the number of refugees in India after Op searchlight? Did Paksiatn play clean with its own citizens? You were not even ready to handover the power to clear winners. Why? Because your skin is fairer? Come on friend.

I don’t know what is playing clean or dirty in a war or against an adversary. Has Paksiatn ever played clean with India? Starting with 1948. Did it play clean with US in Afghanistan? Nations play for their own good. Not clean or dirty.

Operation searchlight was a known operation of oppression against East Pakistanis. There are enough quotes from your then PM and the Army chief clearly laying out the plan of action for East Paksiatn. Google can bring out those audio and videos for anyone keen to introspect.

Stop blaming India for turn of events.
I am not blaming India for anything it did not do. However there are plenty of fallacies floated by your establishment to maintain the flawless victory facade, about 'heroics' of Indians and 'sacrifices' of Bengalis.

That whole argument about the keen interest in internal matters of Pakistan would open a can of worms for you. Those 'refugees' , well may have also fled due to Pakistan Army's ops, but they were also driven out systematically by Mukti, in order to blame it on Pakistanis, for Indians to exploit at the international level, and also to facilitate recruitment from their ranks and shore up their numbers.
 
Add to this, single Pakistan Airforce squadron of F-86 Sabres with 16 aircraft facing Ten Indian Air Force's squadrons. Three of these equipped with MiG-21s with the rest made up of SU-7s, Hunters, Gnats and Canbera bombers plus Caribou transport converted for night bombing.
The single PAF squadron was grounded within 48 hours of hostilities... Before that in combat, it shot down 11 Indian jets for the loss of five F-86s.
In subsequent two weeks of the war, the IAF continued to bomb the single PAF airbase but failed to hit even one of the eleven grounded Sabres. However in the process lost another 17 aircraft to Pak army gunners.
 

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