Why U.S. rail travel is so expensive

[nahtanbob]

HSR is new, how much do you have?


Cause that's stupid and not sustainable, China subsizes public services in a sustainable way, are you really that dumb not to see it?

you mean to say public health is cheaper than HSR

If they had put the R&D money on high efficiency transport planes (Turboprops), they would be at the sweet spot of faster travel and stronger aircraft industry. Somebody higher up fell in love with the Chu Chu probably looking at the Japanese Shinkansen (1964 technology) and French TGV (1974 technology) and spent many years developing the high-speed train technology.

they cannot build jet engines yet. When they do build jet engines you will see the likes of @beijingwalker talking about it. You will hear the term "aerial silk route". too bad I cannot copyright it

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

For Euro 100, it's considered cheap if your monthly salary is Euro 2000-3000.

In developing or poor countries, the ticket can be USD 50-70, and your monthly salary is just USD 100-200.

If the government can keep the costs down in perpetuity (as in 100 years of train/track maintenance) that is great..but the reality is trains are a big upfront investment that ends up turning into a money pit...even for China.

Weak Demand for China's High-Speed Trains: A Ticking Time Bomb?

China’s High-Speed Railway network is by far the largest in the world, but it is running at an eyewatering loss which may threaten the wider Chinese economy.

japan-forward.com

and Indonesia..

Indonesia’s China-built rail link chugs along despite overshooting budget

President Joko Widodo, who inspected a new railway station, said the project was 88.8 per cent complete and its commercial launch is expected in June 2023.

www.scmp.com

Indonesia’s China-built high-speed rail project on track despite cost overrun of US$2 billion

https://www.cato.org/policy-analysis/high-speed-money-sink-why-united-states-should-not-spend-trillions-obsolete

The High‐Speed Rail Money Sink: Why the United States Should Not Spend Trillions on Obsolete Technology

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We have had passenger rail since at least the 1820s. It was popular for a very very very very very long time.

1952. Look at at how fun it was. It's not like we didn't care about it.

But interest in it waned when the jet age appeared. Remember we built them so just like how China has large numbers of HSR trains available (since they build them) we had large numbers of jet planes at our disposal. So much so that as I stated previously most people born in the US after 1965 have probably never been on a "real" train (other than local subway and commuter lines) in their entire lives.

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It's a lot easier to pave an airport runway and replace old airplanes with a variety of new small, medium, and large sized airliners than to be stuck frozen forever with over 100,000 kms of a particular track design.

For instance China is following the path of the West and using Standard-Gauge rails. Yes, it does have the advantage of being backwards compatible with their old lines but that gauge was created only because of the width of existing horse cart ruts on ancient British roads...not because of any modern calculated width necessity.

That means Chinese train riders will probably be constrained by that arbitrary measurement for another 100 years.

 

[epebble]

If the government can keep the costs down in perpetuity (as in 100 years of train/track maintenance) that is great..but the reality is trains are a big upfront investment that ends up turning into a money pit...even for China.

Weak Demand for China's High-Speed Trains: A Ticking Time Bomb?

China’s High-Speed Railway network is by far the largest in the world, but it is running at an eyewatering loss which may threaten the wider Chinese economy.

japan-forward.com

Having incurred the capital costs anyway, why don't they bring down the price so that the trains are full or near full, the way airlines manage the load factor with variable pricing? They can even license the ticket pricing software from a U.S. airline. That picture in the link of an empty train car zooming at 300 KMPH shows utter waste of resources, mainly all that fossil fuel powered electricity generation. If they use price elasticity to fill the trains, they may also maximize the revenue and reduce the debt burden on public funds.

 

[etylo]

These Americans just seem will not accept the fact that China has something that is good.

 

[FuturePAF]

Not many are lamenting that they wished they could take a HSR system to visit relatives...BTW note how they are visiting relatives...not going "back home".

Plane service has been around for a long time. Most people who were born after 1965 have probably never been on a train (other than local commuter rail and subways).

While a nationwide HSR network doesn’t suite American needs, Better commuter rail and upgrades to subways (signals upgrades, better track maintenance, long passing tracks to allow passenger trains or even smaller freight trains to bypass longer freight trains, more electrification for environmental reasons) should be done to cut down on travel times in cities and between where many live (suburbs of different socioeconomic levels depending on people’s income) and jobs in cities or around cities.

That is why Amtrak’s 2035 Vision is the best we can hope for over the next 10-15 years.

Rail workers also need paid sick leave to allow people to live like other workers. It’s dangerous back breaking work. Labor costs are related HR expenses make up a large portion of expenses.

While over-regulations should be prevented to limit high freight costs passed on by freight companies, companies should be required to upkeep their rails, freight cars, and signals, so national logistics are run efficiently and passenger trains can be run as per the 1979 agreement to prioritize passenger trains over freight rail.

We don’t need high speed at high ticket prices, just high average speeds (100-125 mph) at the cheapest price possible.

If the laws were enforced on freight operators to prioritize passenger service, there could even be competition on passenger service between private operators.

Brightline is a model of rail service that suites American needs (and is probably the right level of service for Pakistan; even the new trains being imported from China are of the 160 kmph variety, similar to service on brightline, which I have personally tried and found to be an even better overall experience then Amtrak’s Acela high speed train as well as the Amtrak’s Business class on its regular trains on the Northeast corridor, it’s of which I traveled upon in 2019)

Also, Brightline is a private for profit business, that runs train on the Florida East Coast Freight railways tracks. A business model for the rest of the US, IMHO, As well as one Pakistan should consider.

Part of the private business model is giving rail companies land adjacent to tracks upon which to built apartments, offices, hotels, restaurants, etc. from which to earn rental income or land leasing revenue from private operators to fund railway operations. This is the successful business model of Japan railway. They also re-structured in the pst 30 years to find a way to get rid of their long term liabilities.

 

[Beast]

This didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out...

A Whopping $900B Debt - China's Once-Profitable High-Speed Railways Now Heading Towards A Trillion Dollar Disaster

China’s long-distance high-speed rail (HSR) is hailed as the fundamental tenet of its initiatives to recover the country’s coronavirus-affected economy. The government’s goal is to expand further what is already the world’s most extensive high-speed rail network. Recapturing Alaska! Russia...

eurasiantimes.com

A Whopping $900B Debt – China’s Once-Profitable High-Speed Railways Now Heading Towards A Trillion Dollar Disaster

So desperate of u to bring Eurasian times .

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

While a nationwide HSR network doesn’t suite American needs, Better commuter rail and upgrades to subways (signals upgrades, better track maintenance, long passing tracks to allow passenger trains or even smaller freight trains to bypass longer freight trains, more electrification for environmental reasons) should be done to cut down on travel times in cities and between where many live (suburbs of different socioeconomic levels depending on people’s income) and jobs in cities or around cities.

That is why Amtrak’s 2035 Vision is the best we can hope for over the next 10-15 years.

Rail workers also need paid sick leave to allow people to live like other workers. It’s dangerous back breaking work. Labor costs are related HR expenses make up a large portion of expenses.

While over-regulations should be prevented to limit high freight costs passed on by freight companies, companies should be required to upkeep their rails, freight cars, and signals, so national logistics are run efficiently and passenger trains can be run as per the 1979 agreement to prioritize passenger trains over freight rail.

We don’t need high speed at high ticket prices, just high average speeds (100-125 mph) at the cheapest price possible.

If the laws were enforced on freight operators to prioritize passenger service, there could even be competition on passenger service between private operators.

Brightline is a model of rail service that suites American needs (and is probably the right level of service for Pakistan; even the new trains being imported from China are of the 160 kmph variety, similar to service on brightline, which I have personally tried and found to be an even better overall experience then Amtrak’s Acela high speed train as well as the Amtrak’s Business class on its regular trains on the Northeast corridor, it’s of which I traveled upon in 2019)

Also, Brightline is a private for profit business, that runs train on the Florida East Coast Freight railways tracks. A business model for the rest of the US, IMHO, As well as one Pakistan should consider.

Part of the private business model is giving rail companies land adjacent to tracks upon which to built apartments, offices, hotels, restaurants, etc. from which to earn rental income or land leasing revenue from private operators to fund railway operations. This is the successful business model of Japan railway. They also re-structured in the pst 30 years to find a way to get rid of their long term liabilities.

Well HSR really needs to be on a dedicated right of way to run safely and smoothly. That means one of two options: Up above ground level or below ground level.

So while above ground level sounds like the obvious solution it's just going to end up being an eyesore and a source of noise.

You can make some parallels with how when the highways and subways were shoe-horned into places on elevated tracks that over the years they just didn't meet people's changing views on aesthetics.

Example:

Boston shoe-horned in an elevated highway through the city. Later it was considered just an ugly eyesore (even when trying to use green paint) and moved underground and public parkland put in its place.

I have a feeling elevated cement HSR lines will end up getting the same reaction.

DisneyWorld elevated cement Monorail tracks.

 

[FuturePAF]

Well HSR really needs to be on a dedicated right of way to run safely and smoothly. That means one of two options: Up above ground level or below ground level.

So while above ground level sounds like the obvious solution it's just going to end up being an eyesore and a source of noise.

You can make some parallels with how when the highways and subways were shoe-horned into places on elevated tracks that over the years they just didn't meet people's changing views on aesthetics.

Example:

Boston shoe-horned in an elevated highway through the city. Later it was considered just an ugly eyesore (even when trying to use green paint) and moved underground and public parkland put in its place.

I have a feeling elevated cement HSR lines will end up getting the same reaction.

DisneyWorld elevated cement Monorail tracks.

At grade with underpasses for cars is how Caltrain and the LIRR are built. Building in the medians of interstates will also help get around some of the eyesore “spread” as it will just be a little more in an area that is already an eyesore

Look at how they plan to build Brightline west. Even better if a private company builds this and has pressure from airlines and budget bus companies and car rentals to keep tickets prices relatively affordable.

Hope they get this built in time for the 2028 Olympics. Showing the world what American engineering and hospitality looks like when we find a way to make it on a commercial/capitalist basis.

 

[beijingwalker]

Beijing Shenzhen High Speed Train Route
It is 2409 kilometers (1,497miles) long and travels for 8 hours 45 minutes to 11 hours from north to south China.

China is also the world biggest aviation market, no one says that Chinese only ride HSR to get around, for a distance between Beijing and Shenzhen or to Urumqi, most people would prefer flying, HSR is most suitable between cities with traveling time within 5 hours.

they cannot build jet engines yet. When they do build jet engines you will see the likes of @beijingwalker talking about it. You will hear the term "aerial silk route". too bad I cannot copyright it

What does this thread have to do with jet engines and who told you China can't built jet engines?

 

[beijingwalker]

If the government can keep the costs down in perpetuity (as in 100 years of train/track maintenance) that is great..but the reality is trains are a big upfront investment that ends up turning into a money pit...even for China.

How many times I have to tell you that the money reward brought by HSR in China is never the ticket sales? HSR connects different cities and town, greatly improve the development level especially for the poor regions and it also is an indispensable part to serve China's supply chain so the manufactured products can be moved around cheaply and fast, HSR helped push GDP by 3%, how much ticket sales can get this much money?
Chinese government always make plans with an eye for the far future and focus on the big picture, unlike US, your government is able to make long term development plans, their sight is never set beyond the next election.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

How many times I have to tell you that the money r

Not nearly as many times as I have had to repeatedly tell you over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over that we can't easily build HSR lines in the US because we are a developed country..not a nation of poor farmers who could have their land bought for relatively nothing with the promise of getting a new high rise apartment.

It will cost insane amounts of money to buy all the property. The median value of a home in the US is $357,000 on a median lot size of 929sq meters. The median household income is ~$70,000. These people are going to put up a fight every step of the way to get adequate compensation if you try and take their property away. You aren't going to get them to trade it for a high-rise apartment.

Do the math on how much it would cost to put in a significant two way direct line between cities.

But why do the math when you can just ignore everything and keep posting articles about HSR in the US and then say "how many times do I have to tell you..."

 

[beijingwalker]

Not nearly as many times as I have had to repeatedly tell you over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over that we can't easily build HSR lines in the US because we are a developed country..not a nation of poor farmers who could have their land bought for relatively nothing with the promise of getting a new high rise apartment.

It will cost insane amounts of money to buy all the property. The median value of a home in the US is $357,000 on a median lot size of 929sq meters. The median household income is ~$70,000. These people are going to put up a fight every step of the way to get adequate compensation.

Do the math on how much it would cost to put in a significant two way direct line between cities.

But why some US cities are still trying to build one? your claim that US doesn't need HSR and clean subways are very funny, no one in the world likes to ride the subway with rats and garbage.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

But why some US cities are still trying to build one?

Some??? So now suddenly that means it is widely wanted?

California is trying to build one but the cost of the land by back was so high they have to arc it through farmland instead of a direct line..and it is still costing them plenty.

SF bullet train will displace hundreds in Bay Area

California's bullet train dream has already become a Central Valley nightmare. The Bay Area is next.

www.sfgate.com

Construction so far has been limited to a 171-mile section through the sparsely populated Central Valley, where California’s High-Speed Rail Authority has spent more than $1.4 billion buying property — a process that has served as a major source of the delays.

your claim that US doesn't need HSR

When did I say we don't need HSR????

I'm saying the cost is simply prohibitive to do this widespead...it is in the tens of $millions per kilometer just to buy the land...nevermind to build the track.

If your argument is we need HSR to move goods well considering almost all the rail in the US is moving goods instead of people then the only issue is about speed.

no one in the world likes to ride the subway with rats and garbage.

Nobody wants a population that is just a level slightly above extreme poverty either.

 

[beijingwalker]

Some??? So now suddenly that means it is widely wanted?

California is trying to build one but the cost of the land by back was so high they have to arc it through farmland instead of a direct line..and it is still costing them plenty.

SF bullet train will displace hundreds in Bay Area

California's bullet train dream has already become a Central Valley nightmare. The Bay Area is next.

www.sfgate.com

Whether it's widely wanted is everyone's story, if you want it, you can't have it cause it's so hard to build one in US, this is a fact, whether you like it or not.

Nobody wants a population that is just a level slightly above extreme poverty either.

Like which country? do you think anyone likes to live in the city streets in cold winter nights?

 

[Chat SAMOSA]

What do you mean " a few"? railway is the most popular choice of travel, China gets tons of money, and the government spends money on the public transport, public heallth, public education... that's the money well spent.


Government is for the people, it's not a company only cares about making profit, this difference is very clear between China and US. when it comes to serve the public interest and the wellbeing of the nation long term, China never tries to hold investments back.

Government is for people ? Hey ! You're now a third into democracy ...kudos. hopefully the by and of the people will follow soon. Tell Xiji to just get working vaccines for the people too.