Army Chief Visits HIT

[iLION12345_1]

The 6th amrd div has been equipped with the turret add on ones.
These pictures are of 2010:
View attachment 792083View attachment 792084View attachment 792085
Though I can't really guess if these are of 6th armd div but from the terrain and trees especially it seems to be Kharian-Gujranwala region.

These do not have the turret add on, just the reshaping plates. The add on armor is composite, it goes over these plates.

 

[HRK]

The increase in weight was due to the addition of composite and HHS plates on the hull, the addition of the larger engine, larger gun and it’s breech, the semi-automatic loading system, the upgraded suspension, new stabilizers and FCS etc.

It is true that in the original AZs no extra armor was added to the turret apart from the ERA, the steel reshaping plates on top of the normal type 59 turret were just to give a good surface to mount ERA on. Going off pictures and my personal measurements at HIT, they are very thin. The hull however did get armor upgrades as I mentioned above.

But as I just mentioned a few posts back, HIT did later produce AZs with extra armor on the turret as well, it seems to be some form of composite going by the texture. I’ve put some photos down below to show it. One set of photos is from an AZ without the turret add on (only reshaping plates), other is with the turret add on (some sort of composite armor)View attachment 792048View attachment 792049View attachment 792050View attachment 792051View attachment 792052View attachment 792053

I know the second version of AZ, but I was only talking about first version which did not receive ERA upgrades, the additional reshaping plates over the cast turret of T-59 are not commercial steel but HHS ...

 

[iLION12345_1]

I know the second version of AZ, but I was only talking about first version which did receive ERA upgrades, the additional reshaping plates over the cast turret of T-59 are not commercial steel but HHS ...

Both versions of AZ have ERA. One has Reshaping plates + ERA (they’re the same version, it’s just that ERA isn’t always mounted during peacetime), the other version is Reshaping plates + add on armor + ERA.

I don’t doubt the plates are HHS, but they are too thin to provide any noticeable armor increase, except for maybe against HE/HEAT projectiles by acting like spaced armor, which would be beneficial against some threats like RPGs.

When ERA is installed over the reshaping plates however, then it’s certainly an increase in armor, I do hope the army has those upgraded turret add-ons in service (the ones that go over the reshaping plates), I haven’t seen them outside of HIT.

 

[Bilal9]

View attachment 791778

That is I believe based on M109 chassis?

I'd be interested in the turret specs and detail if/when available.

 

[Bilal9]

This is most definitely just a sheet metal cover, there’s simply no space for the composites underneath or over the turret, plus this is an old AZ which in this case was traveling without its ERA even.

A tank like the Type 59 can survive all those (barring the SPG, this tank wasn’t hit with that), because none of them are AT weapons. VBIEDS aren’t penetrative, they will do burn and frag damage as seen on this tank, and it was indeed hit by an RPG, but an HE Round, that would likely have just torn off that metal plate, the rest of the damage on the tank is indicative of such a hit.

There was another case in which an AZ turret was hit by an SPG-7 AT round and it went clear through the front and then out the back. That’s an entirely different tank altogether, there are pictures available of that tank too.

Regardless, in the pictures I posted above, the second two are of an AZ with composite armor over the turret. So they did improve it, it’s likely a bolt on upgrade that can be attached at any time.

The other tank in question, the back of the turret is blown open.
View attachment 791820

Other damaged AZs:
View attachment 791822View attachment 791823View attachment 791824

I wonder if bar (grille) armor around the turret (like that used nowadays by Abrams tanks and some MRAPS) could have prevented the projectile from penetrating (would have prematurely detonated outside these welded turret plate covers).

 

[Akh1112]

That is I believe based on M109 chassis?

I'd be interested in the turret specs and detail if/when available.

Army Guide

Army Guide - information about the main battle tanks, armoured vehicles and armament of the land forces and also the information concerning other army subjects - TURRA 30, Remote controlled weapon station, Turrets

www.army-guide.com

 

[Bilal9]

Army Guide

Army Guide - information about the main battle tanks, armoured vehicles and armament of the land forces and also the information concerning other army subjects - TURRA 30, Remote controlled weapon station, Turrets

www.army-guide.com

Thanks brother.

 

[Bilal9]

The increase in weight was due to the addition of composite and HHS plates on the hull, the addition of the larger engine, larger gun and it’s breech, the semi-automatic loading system, the upgraded suspension, new stabilizers and FCS etc.

It is true that in the original AZs no extra armor was added to the turret apart from the ERA, the steel reshaping plates on top of the normal type 59 turret were just to give a good surface to mount ERA on. Going off pictures and my personal measurements at HIT, they are very thin. The hull however did get armor upgrades as I mentioned above.

But as I just mentioned a few posts back, HIT did later produce AZs with extra armor on the turret as well, it seems to be some form of composite going by the texture. I’ve put some photos down below to show it. One set of photos is from an AZ without the turret add on (only reshaping plates), other is with the turret add on (some sort of composite armor)View attachment 792048View attachment 792049View attachment 792050View attachment 792051View attachment 792052View attachment 792053

Not to derail the thread, but our own ordnance factory also added the same Chinese ERA to our Type 59G's - don't know about HHA plates (unless those are bolted next to the ERA).

This one, I have no idea what this is, but it also has ERA and HHA plates evidently

 

[khanasifm]

However this picture suggests otherwise since according to pk this AZ survived multiple spg, rpg and VBEDS. Metal sheet couldn't have stopped all that.
The composite block from the turret must have been removed. The metal plate which would cover it can be seen on the right side of the tank, and you can see it’s not penetrated, but rather removed. There is also no impact marks on the actual turret below, which suggests composite layer was not penetrated either. If it had just been sheet metal we would see impact marks on the turret below as that could never stop an RPG.(quote @iLION12345_1 )
View attachment 791818

The story of this tank was narrated by Gen Tariq in his book and interview

broke down technical fault and was abandoned and was destroyed after the fact if this is Mohmmad agency

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well after Navy's modernization Completes in 2030 , Military might see some improvements

 

[farooqbhai007]

That is I believe based on M109 chassis?

I'd be interested in the turret specs and detail if/when available.

Its based on Talha APC extended chassis, the turret used in a slovakian one I think , if you search you can find the specs

 

[iLION12345_1]

Not to derail the thread, but our own ordnance factory also added the same Chinese ERA to our Type 59G's - don't know about HHA plates (unless those are bolted next to the ERA).

This one, I have no idea what this is, but it also has ERA and HHA plates evidently

First two are exactly the same as Al-Zarrar, the same reshaping plates with ERA over them (FY-2 in BDs case, on the Pakistani ones it’s AORAK, it’s a bit thicker).
The last one is just ERA directly bolted on to a type 59 turret. However the coverage is quite a bit better.\

I don’t see any added armor apart from that. The Type 59BG tanks are basically the closest thing to Al-Zarrar possible, except with more Chinese components and some other improvements. I wonder what APFSDS BD army uses.

 

[Bilal9]

First two are exactly the same as Al-Zarrar, the same reshaping plates with ERA over them (FY-2 in BDs case, on the Pakistani ones it’s AORAK, it’s a bit thicker).
The last one is just ERA directly bolted on to a type 59 turret. However the coverage is quite a bit better.\

I don’t see any added armor apart from that. The Type 59BG tanks are basically the closest thing to Al-Zarrar possible, except with more Chinese components and some other improvements. I wonder what APFSDS BD army uses.

I wouldn't have details on the APFSDS sabot rounds, but BD sources claim that these 125mm NATO rounds can penetrate 500mm of rolled homogenous armor at distances of 2 KM or more, which is better than some Indian rounds which can penetrate 200mm. But those claims can be taken with a grain of salt.

Here is a more involved and detailed discussion at Quora (take that as shaky evidence as well). I do not want to diss anyone's equipment and the opinions are quoted here verbatim (just want to compare/contrast to evaluate positively),

Which is better, the Al-Zarrar or the Type 59G (BD) Durjoy?

Answer (1 of 2): Al-Zarrar Type 59G(BD) Durjoy Lets compare them: (I could only find information about the MKI/ (not very much about the MKII): ‘Between the Durjoy MK I and the Durjoy MK II there are many big differences, such as the armor, the speed, the weight etc.’ so keep this in mind) ...

www.quora.com

"Al-Zarrar

Type 59G(BD) Durjoy

Lets compare them:

(I could only find information about the MKI/ (not very much about the MKII):

‘Between the Durjoy MK I and the Durjoy MK II there are many big differences, such as the armor, the speed, the weight etc.’

so keep this in mind)

Firepower:

Type 59G(BD) Durjoy:

• It has a 125 mm main gun(with 28 rounds) as the primary armament.
• The Durjoys APFSDS can penetrate 500 mm of reactive armor at 2 km.
• Barrel launched ATGM firing capability.

Al-Zarrar:

• Al-Zarrar's primary armament is a 125 mm smoothbore tank gun with an autofrettaged, chrome-plated gun barrel.
• It is capable of firing APFSDS, HEAT-FS and HE-FS rounds as well as anti-tank guided missiles and a Pakistani DU (depleted uranium) round, the 125 mm Naiza. Naiza is capable of penetrating 550 mm of RHA armour at a distance of 2 km.

Not a significant victory but lets say +1 for Al-Zarrar

Protection:

Type 59G(BD) Durjoy:

• The main gun is settled on a new turret, precisely on the Type 96 turret.
• modular Composite armor and Cage armor to protect it from RPG hits.
• Chinese 3rd generation ERA /Russian Kontakt-5
• To increase crew comfort and protection in the tank are settled air conditioning systems and complete NBC protection
• Collective Fire suppression system.
• Laser warning receiver

Al-Zarrar:

• Al-Zarrar uses modular composite armour and explosive reactive armour to give improved protection from anti-tank missiles, mines and other weapons.
• The Pakistani ATCOP LTS-1 laser threat warning system is fitted to inform the tank crew if the tank is targeted by a laser range-finder or laser designator.
• Smoke grenade launchers are fitted to the sides of the turret. An automatic fire-extinguishing and explosion suppression system is installed to improve crew survivability.

Due to the new turret and superior ERA: +1 for Type 59G(BD) Durjoy

FCS

Type 59G(BD) Durjoy:

• Fire control system, Combat data link, Thermal imaging system.
• XDZ-1 SATCOM and VRC-2000L radio contact system.

Al-Zarrar:

• the gun has a dual-axis stabilization system and thermal imaging sights integrated into the fire-control system for the commander and gunner. The image stabilized fire-control system includes a laser range-finder for accurate range information and ballistics computer to improve accuracy. An improved gun control system is also fitted.

As we don't really know anything about these FCS, and they are probably almost equal as Pakistan developed with the help of China FCS/Copied and bought FCS from China, nobody gets a point.

Mobility

Type 59G(BD) Durjoy:

• 730 HP Diesel engine
• Operational range: 450 km and 750 km with extra fuel
• Maximum speed: 60 kilometres per hour (37 mph)
• Power/weight: 17.4 hp/t

Al-Zarrar:

• liquid-cooled 12-cylinder diesel engine, giving a power output of 730 hp (540 kW)
• Operational range: 450km
• Maximum speed: 65km/h
• Power/weight: 16.6 hp/t

As you can see they are almost equal, so again to be fair: no points

So which is better? Well, they are very equal but if I had to choose one I would definitely take the Type 59G(BD) Durjoy. He is much better armored. The Type 59G(BD) Durjoy has a Type 98 turret (+modular armor?) with 3rd generation Chinese ERA or Kontakt-5 which brings the protection almost on the level of the t-72B3.The Hull is armored with modular armor and again superior ERA. The Al-Zarrar has also modular armor (we don't know which modular armor is better but its logical that China produces superior modular armor) The ERA is probably only light ERA and definitely worse than the Russian/Chinese one, (Pakistan imported ERA from China but only first and maybe even second generation) so it protects the tank only from HEAT but not from KE, which means that every hit would be a kill, considering the limitations of modular armor.

Edit: I should mention that if the Al-Zarrar is equipped with explosive reactive armor AORAK Mk.2 (like the best MBT of Pakistan the Al-Khalid) the protection by ERA would be equal to the Type 59G(BD) Durjoy ( In tests, the newer ERA has a protection level of 350-450mm vs APFSDS and 450-550mm vs HEAT’ - claimed by Pakistan)

Still, the Type 59G(BD) Durjoy is much better armored due to the turret.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There was also this thread back in 2017,

Bangladesh Army

Defence Technology of Bangladesh-DTB ♦Type-59BD "Durjoy"♦ Chinese assistance চীনের সহায়তায় বাংলাদেশ BA সেনাবাহিনী তাদের পুরাতন New upgraded Type-59 Tanks ট্যাংকগুলো আপগ্রেড করছে যার BA Version বাংলাদেশী ভার্সন হলো Type-59BD বা "Durjoy" ২০১৫ সালে এগুলো চীনের নরিনকো এর সহায়তায় আপগ্রেড করার কাজ...

defence.pk

@BDforever bhai was our resident Army expert, he could probably be able to provide more accurate info, barring classified stuff.

That is if he sees this, he hasn't been back for a while.

 

[iLION12345_1]

I wouldn't have details on the APFSDS sabot rounds, but BD sources claim that these 125mm NATO rounds can penetrate 500mm of rolled homogenous armor at distances of 2 KM or more, which is better than some Indian rounds which can penetrate 200mm. But those claims can be taken with a grain of salt.

Here is a more involved and detailed discussion at Quora (take that as shaky evidence as well). I do not want to diss anyone's equipment and the opinions are quoted here verbatim (just want to compare/contrast to evaluate positively),

Which is better, the Al-Zarrar or the Type 59G (BD) Durjoy?

Answer (1 of 2): Al-Zarrar Type 59G(BD) Durjoy Lets compare them: (I could only find information about the MKI/ (not very much about the MKII): ‘Between the Durjoy MK I and the Durjoy MK II there are many big differences, such as the armor, the speed, the weight etc.’ so keep this in mind) ...

www.quora.com

"Al-Zarrar

Type 59G(BD) Durjoy

Lets compare them:

(I could only find information about the MKI/ (not very much about the MKII):

‘Between the Durjoy MK I and the Durjoy MK II there are many big differences, such as the armor, the speed, the weight etc.’

so keep this in mind)

Firepower:

Type 59G(BD) Durjoy:

• It has a 125 mm main gun(with 28 rounds) as the primary armament.
• The Durjoys APFSDS can penetrate 500 mm of reactive armor at 2 km.
• Barrel launched ATGM firing capability.

Al-Zarrar:

• Al-Zarrar's primary armament is a 125 mm smoothbore tank gun with an autofrettaged, chrome-plated gun barrel.
• It is capable of firing APFSDS, HEAT-FS and HE-FS rounds as well as anti-tank guided missiles and a Pakistani DU (depleted uranium) round, the 125 mm Naiza. Naiza is capable of penetrating 550 mm of RHA armour at a distance of 2 km.

Not a significant victory but lets say +1 for Al-Zarrar

Protection:

Type 59G(BD) Durjoy:

• The main gun is settled on a new turret, precisely on the Type 96 turret.
• modular Composite armor and Cage armor to protect it from RPG hits.
• Chinese 3rd generation ERA /Russian Kontakt-5
• To increase crew comfort and protection in the tank are settled air conditioning systems and complete NBC protection
• Collective Fire suppression system.
• Laser warning receiver

Al-Zarrar:

• Al-Zarrar uses modular composite armour and explosive reactive armour to give improved protection from anti-tank missiles, mines and other weapons.
• The Pakistani ATCOP LTS-1 laser threat warning system is fitted to inform the tank crew if the tank is targeted by a laser range-finder or laser designator.
• Smoke grenade launchers are fitted to the sides of the turret. An automatic fire-extinguishing and explosion suppression system is installed to improve crew survivability.

Due to the new turret and superior ERA: +1 for Type 59G(BD) Durjoy

FCS

Type 59G(BD) Durjoy:

• Fire control system, Combat data link, Thermal imaging system.
• XDZ-1 SATCOM and VRC-2000L radio contact system.

Al-Zarrar:

• the gun has a dual-axis stabilization system and thermal imaging sights integrated into the fire-control system for the commander and gunner. The image stabilized fire-control system includes a laser range-finder for accurate range information and ballistics computer to improve accuracy. An improved gun control system is also fitted.

As we don't really know anything about these FCS, and they are probably almost equal as Pakistan developed with the help of China FCS/Copied and bought FCS from China, nobody gets a point.

Mobility

Type 59G(BD) Durjoy:

• 730 HP Diesel engine
• Operational range: 450 km and 750 km with extra fuel
• Maximum speed: 60 kilometres per hour (37 mph)
• Power/weight: 17.4 hp/t

Al-Zarrar:

• liquid-cooled 12-cylinder diesel engine, giving a power output of 730 hp (540 kW)
• Operational range: 450km
• Maximum speed: 65km/h
• Power/weight: 16.6 hp/t

As you can see they are almost equal, so again to be fair: no points

So which is better? Well, they are very equal but if I had to choose one I would definitely take the Type 59G(BD) Durjoy. He is much better armored. The Type 59G(BD) Durjoy has a Type 98 turret (+modular armor?) with 3rd generation Chinese ERA or Kontakt-5 which brings the protection almost on the level of the t-72B3.The Hull is armored with modular armor and again superior ERA. The Al-Zarrar has also modular armor (we don't know which modular armor is better but its logical that China produces superior modular armor) The ERA is probably only light ERA and definitely worse than the Russian/Chinese one, (Pakistan imported ERA from China but only first and maybe even second generation) so it protects the tank only from HEAT but not from KE, which means that every hit would be a kill, considering the limitations of modular armor.

Edit: I should mention that if the Al-Zarrar is equipped with explosive reactive armor AORAK Mk.2 (like the best MBT of Pakistan the Al-Khalid) the protection by ERA would be equal to the Type 59G(BD) Durjoy ( In tests, the newer ERA has a protection level of 350-450mm vs APFSDS and 450-550mm vs HEAT’ - claimed by Pakistan)

Still, the Type 59G(BD) Durjoy is much better armored due to the turret.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There was also this thread back in 2017,

Bangladesh Army

Defence Technology of Bangladesh-DTB ♦Type-59BD "Durjoy"♦ Chinese assistance চীনের সহায়তায় বাংলাদেশ BA সেনাবাহিনী তাদের পুরাতন New upgraded Type-59 Tanks ট্যাংকগুলো আপগ্রেড করছে যার BA Version বাংলাদেশী ভার্সন হলো Type-59BD বা "Durjoy" ২০১৫ সালে এগুলো চীনের নরিনকো এর সহায়তায় আপগ্রেড করার কাজ...

defence.pk

@BDforever bhai was our resident Army expert, he could probably be able to provide more accurate info, barring classified stuff.

That is if he sees this, he hasn't been back for a while.

Unrelated note but I don’t understand why everyone uses that picture of Al-Zarrar lol, it’s a prototype that never entered production.

On topic: I doubt BD uses 125MM NATO rounds considering NATO tank guns are 120MM, BD buys its tanks from China, so they most likely use Chinese 125-I APFSDS (460MM/0 Deg at 2KM) or maybe 125-II if China has exported that to BD (I can’t say for certain though because I don’t recall that ammo being exported at all). The next Chinese ammunition would be the BTA-4 and I can say for certain BD hasn’t bought that yet since it cannot be fired from those models.

125-I has similar performance to the best ammo India has in service (BM42 APFSDS), it’s used by 2/3rds of the Indian armored fleet, the rest 1/3rd use BM17, which would be inferior, and the Arjun is just a joke so that doesn’t matter.

Also, do you have a clear photo of that apparent second type of Durjoy, with the new turret?

 

[Bilal9]

Unrelated note but I don’t understand why everyone uses that picture of Al-Zarrar lol, it’s a prototype that never entered production.

On topic: I doubt BD uses 125MM NATO rounds considering NATO tank guns are 120MM, BD buys its tanks from China, so they most likely use Chinese 125-I APFSDS (460MM/0 Deg at 2KM) or maybe 125-II if China has exported that to BD (I can’t say for certain though because I don’t recall that ammo being exported at all). The next Chinese ammunition would be the BTA-4 and I can say for certain BD hasn’t bought that yet since it cannot be fired from those models.

125-I has similar performance to the best ammo India has in service (BM42 APFSDS), it’s used by 2/3rds of the Indian armored fleet, the rest 1/3rd use BM17, which would be inferior, and the Arjun is just a joke so that doesn’t matter.

Also, do you have a clear photo of that apparent second type of Durjoy, with the new turret?

I will try to find an image, they are hard to come by unless operated in the open in proving grounds. Well the NATO 125mm reference may just be a mistake from some source.

Many Thanks for the details - they do make sense.