Army Chief Visits HIT

[Dazzler]

Then what gun did they use originally in 1991? HIT wasn’t making its own gun then nor was Pakistan importing any.

Armor module for Type 85-IIAP was already known to be made locally (you confirmed that some years ago on the forum)
It can also be visually confirmed By looking at module of ZTZ-96, but if the turret in the above picture is indeed of a Type 85UG, it means they’ve changed it further with the upgrade, it’s a similar layout to AK, makes sense given it was basically its successor.

It means the tank doesn’t have any additional armor on turret, just thin steel reshaping plates to attach ERA over, however as seen in the pictures I posted, the AZs they made later do have some sort of added protection at the front of the turret, seems to be composite.

A reversed engineered copy of 2a46. A basic gun that lacked chrome plating and other trademark improvements of zpt98.

 

[Riz]

COAS visited various facilities of HIT and witnessed recently developed enhanced protection solutions and remote weapon systems for tanks, indigenously developed 155 mm Artillery gun barrel, ballistic / IED protection of military vehicles and manufacturing, rebuild and upgradation of tanks and Armoured Personnel Carriers (APCs). COAS witnessed on-going Research & Development projects and lauded the efforts of HIT to attain self-reliance through indigenisation in modern technologies of Tanks, Artillery Guns and ballistic protection solutions for vehicles.

Has anyone seen these APCs in Pakistan until today?? Kahan istamal karty hain bhai chand par ??

 

[Phantom.]

Anything that know a thing or two about tanks would testify that any modern ATGM would pass through these relics like hot knife through butter
Plus Reshaping a turret with metal plates is shabby to say the least
not to mention that majority of Al Khalids & Al Zarrars roll without any ERA cover what so ever
those that do cover only the front of the turret where by leaving the side which makes for a larger target absolutely vulnerable
HIT is an incompetent company churning out death traps for our Troops without any consideration for R&D and study of the modern ATGM that are out there
We certainly arent gonna be pitching these tanks against militants armed with RPGs at best but against IA with far superior Firepower

So what would have you done with little amount of resources available.Considering the fact that PA had a large number of tanks that needed to be replaced the AZ upgrade program was good it added 2nd Gen TI sights for the Gunner,new FCS,autloaders,New Gun.The metal plates are reshaped so that ERA can be attached on the turret and both AK and AZ have ERA here are some pictures of AZ with ERA present on both the hull and turret.Plus there is no need to Add ERA during peace time.ERA is bolted on metal plates and then attached to the tank whenever its required.

Bulk of IA armour is still made up of T-72s ajeyas and T-72M1s so just like their atgms will go through AZ like a hot knife through butter so will ours besides its the job of infantry to take care of the ATGM teams and move with the armour.

 

[farooqbhai007]

Has anyone seen these APCs in Pakistan until today?? Kahan istamal karty hain bhai chand par ??

If you would have done some research you would have found it , HIT M113 LEA is used by PAF for airbase security and HIT Talha LEA armour upgrade and HIT M113 LEA armour upgrade are used by Police in large numbers in Sindh and Lower Punjab.
While if you are talking about the 4x4 armoured vehicles , than the new Interceptor(Mohafiz IV) is used Police and PN , while the other new Mohafiz 3 is used by Police and FC

 

[iLION12345_1]

Anything that know a thing or two about tanks would testify that any modern ATGM would pass through these relics like hot knife through butter
Plus Reshaping a turret with metal plates is shabby to say the least
not to mention that majority of Al Khalids & Al Zarrars roll without any ERA cover what so ever
those that do cover only the front of the turret where by leaving the side which makes for a larger target absolutely vulnerable
HIT is an incompetent company churning out death traps for our Troops without any consideration for R&D and study of the modern ATGM that are out there
We certainly arent gonna be pitching these tanks against militants armed with RPGs at best but against IA with far superior Firepower

If only people bothered to do any sort of research, this would be a lot easier. All of the stuff you’re complaining about is already explained on this forum in detail.

No tank in service anywhere can withstand a modern ATGM, apart from those equipped with Top-attack defending APS systems, which means Only the Merkava (which has a bunch of it’s own issues). Abrams and Leo are only starting to get APS now, Russia is still testing theirs, and PA also has the option to buy it for VT-4 and AK from China, who also don’t employ it yet.
So it’s funny you think we’re lagging behind.

Reshaping a turret with steel plates makes 100% sense, because you need a proper angle to mount ERA on it, otherwise it’s not effective, which is why it was done for AZ, however they should have added some composite or add on armor from the start, something which they only seem to have done later, but it’s a bolt on kit, can be added by PA at any time.

ERA is not carried in peacetime to preserve its life and reduce the risk of accidents, it’s common practice. If you’d bothered to have a look, you’d realise That whenever AKs, AZs, VT-4s, UDs etc are deployed, they have a full ERA package.

The most common place for a tank to be hit is the front, that’s why the armor is there. While it is true that no Asian country gives any attention to side-armor of tanks (yes, including China, Korea, Japan, Pakistan and india), keep in mind the countries that do give attention to side protection (Russia, US, Germany, France Etc) also cannot add enough armor to stop any sort of AT rounds, any ATGMs or tank projectiles will go through side armor like butter, at most you can make it thick enough to stop minor stuff like RPGs, which is still something, so I wish we did it too, so partially a fair point.

The point I do agree with is HIT being an issue, they are really not innovative at all, partially due to their own incompetency and partially because their only real buyer is the PA, they cannot make what PA doesn’t want or cannot fund, so they only make what they are asked to by the PA, which itself is very money conscious. HIT had dozens of innovative projects in the works before the war on terror broke out, but once it did, the funding stopped, and so did all of that.

Lastly, I try to be as unbiased as I say this, but the Indian armored fleet is an absolute joke, I’ve explained why in other threads before, Their tanks arent Even comparable to what PA operates. Though the number and quality of ATGMs and supporting elements IA possesses does make up for it somewhat. But that’s more a game of tactics that both sides are trying to balance out constantly than it is of tanks. When it comes purely to tanks, PA is outdoing IA by a mile, especially once we get the older types replaced.

 

[iLION12345_1]

If you would have done some research you would have found it , HIT M113 LEA is used by PAF for airbase security and HIT Talha LEA armour upgrade and HIT M113 LEA armour upgrade are used by Police in large numbers in Sindh and Lower Punjab.
While if you are talking about the 4x4 armoured vehicles , than the new Interceptor(Mohafiz IV) is used Police and PN , while the other new Mohafiz 3 is used by Police and FC

PA also uses Talha and Saad APCs, Sakb command vehicles etc.
I suppose the real question is who those up-armored Hiluxs are being made for, they look to be in army camo.

 

[Akh1112]

If only people bothered to do any sort of research, this would be a lot easier. All of the stuff you’re complaining about is already explained on this forum in detail.

No tank in service anywhere can withstand a modern ATGM, apart from those equipped with Top-attack defending APS systems, which means Only the Merkava (which has a bunch of it’s own issues). Abrams and Leo are only starting to get APS now, Russia is still testing theirs, and PA also has the option to buy it for VT-4 and AK from China, who also don’t employ it yet.
So it’s funny you think we’re lagging behind.

Reshaping a turret with steel plates makes 100% sense, because you need a proper angle to mount ERA on it, otherwise it’s not effective, which is why it was done for AZ, however they should have added some composite or add on armor from the start, something which they only seem to have done later, but it’s a bolt on kit, can be added by PA at any time.

ERA is not carried in peacetime to preserve its life and reduce the risk of accidents, it’s common practice. If you’d bothered to have a look, you’d realise That whenever AKs, AZs, VT-4s, UDs etc are deployed, they have a full ERA package.

The most common place for a tank to be hit is the front, that’s why the armor is there. While it is true that no Asian country gives any attention to side-armor of tanks (yes, including China, Korea, Japan, Pakistan and india), keep in mind the countries that do give attention to side protection (Russia, US, Germany, France Etc) also cannot add enough armor to stop any sort of AT rounds, any ATGMs or tank projectiles will go through side armor like butter, at most you can make it thick enough to stop minor stuff like RPGs, which is still something, so I wish we did it too, so partially a fair point.

The point I do agree with is HIT being an issue, they are really not innovative at all, partially due to their own incompetency and partially because their only real buyer is the PA, they cannot make what PA doesn’t want or cannot fund, so they only make what they are asked to by the PA, which itself is very money conscious. HIT had dozens of innovative projects in the works before the war on terror broke out, but once it did, the funding stopped, and so did all of that.

Lastly, I try to be as unbiased as I say this, but the Indian armored fleet is an absolute joke, I’ve explained why in other threads before, Their tanks arent Even comparable to what PA operates. Though the number and quality of ATGMs and supporting elements IA possesses does make up for it somewhat. But that’s more a game of tactics that both sides are trying to balance out constantly than it is of tanks. When it comes purely to tanks, PA is outdoing IA by a mile, especially once we get the older types replaced.

" Lastly, I try to be as unbiased as I say this, but the Indian armored fleet is an absolute joke, I’ve explained why in other threads before, Their tanks arent Even comparable to what PA operates. Though the number and quality of ATGMs and supporting elements IA possesses does make up for it somewhat. But that’s more a game of tactics that both sides are trying to balance out constantly than it is of tanks. When it comes purely to tanks, PA is outdoing IA by a mile, especially once we get the older types replaced. "

Link?

 

[iLION12345_1]

" Lastly, I try to be as unbiased as I say this, but the Indian armored fleet is an absolute joke, I’ve explained why in other threads before, Their tanks arent Even comparable to what PA operates. Though the number and quality of ATGMs and supporting elements IA possesses does make up for it somewhat. But that’s more a game of tactics that both sides are trying to balance out constantly than it is of tanks. When it comes purely to tanks, PA is outdoing IA by a mile, especially once we get the older types replaced. "

Link?

Pakistan Army's VT-4 Main Battle Tank | Updates & Discussions

It's a beautiful tank. And I think it was much needed in the Pakistan Army,to bolster the Armored forces. Until Al Khalid II comes out in full production,you could buy one more model tank type either from the Chinese or maybe...well I guess Americans aren't selling anything to you when it comes...

defence.pk

(Mainly post #2930)

Pakistan Army's VT-4 Main Battle Tank | Updates & Discussions

We now seem to be going for local manufacturing or towards a new tank based on VT4. https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-hit-more-than-just-tanks.716118/ No ToT given for VT4, AK2 will independent tank of VT4

defence.pk

(Both posts about the ERA)

Al-Khalid tank (Type 90-IIM / MBT-2000) Information Pool

Ukraine would give the engine if we wanted it, they need any money they can get, plus given their historical co-operation with Pakistan (and other procurements with them in regards to APCs, T80UD upgrades, AK-1 engines and maybe even T929 in the future) means they might be willing to give us a...

defence.pk

(Post #1510)

Since the information is rather scattered, I’ll try to sum it up here:

India has made some really big mistakes in regards to its armored fleet, currently the best tank they operate is the T90S, which is early 2000s tech, inducted around the same time as the original Al-Khalid. Apart from maybe armor protection, it has no advantages over the Al-Khalid (AK has better firepower, Better FCS and sights, panoramic sights for commander, Much better ammunition and hence better firepower, better mobility etc).

While PA has further inducted AK-1 and VT-4P (both of which are very recent tanks and hence leagues ahead of T90S), india is still ordering more T90S (yes, more of exactly the same ones that it got in 2001), even though Russia has a better version (T90MS) available for sale (this purchase makes absolutely no sense given they initially ordered T90MS, but then canceled that and ordered more T90S instead, makes me think corruption was involved).

India has also made 0 upgrades to its T90S fleet since it was inducted and doesn’t seem to have any plans to upgrade them soon either, as they’ve made no progress on localizing it’s production in the last decade or making local upgrades for it (they still import stuff like engines, tracks and gun barrels for it because they only have partial ToT).

Going down to the older tanks of the two forces, PA has modernized its entire fleet of T80s and Type 85s to keep them relevant, of the 1700-1800 Indian T72s on the other hand, only 950 or so were modernized, the rest remain stock, and with how things are looking right now, india might be operating these stock T72s all the way to 2030, as the Arjun has basically failed and there’s nothing else to replace them with.
The PAs T80s and Type 85s are considerably superior to even the modernized Indian T72s.

The biggest issue with Indian tanks is the ammunition they use, 2/3rds of the Indian fleet (T90S and modernized T72) uses BM42 APFSDS, that’s Soviet ammo from the 80s with similar performance to ammo that PA inducted in the late 90s and early 2000s (IA only got this ammo post 2010, which also boggles me considering Russia had better ammo for sale by then, but I assume it has to do with the fact that india has not upgraded its tanks and hence cannot use the newer ammo, unlike PA which upgraded its older tanks to fire modern ammo).
The rest 1/3rd of the Indian fleet (stock T72s) use BM17 APFSDS, that ammo is comparable to the ammo fired by the obsolete Type 59s that PA is retiring. Meanwhile all of PAs tanks apart from the Type 59s/69s use Modern APFSDS ammo (more detail in one of the above links)

PA also has more (and better) tanks on order than the IA as it replaces its obsolete Type 59s and 69s with VT-4Ps. Come 2025, PAs fleet will be nearly matching IAs in size and considerably beating it in technology.

 

[Phantom.]

Pakistan Army's VT-4 Main Battle Tank | Updates & Discussions

It's a beautiful tank. And I think it was much needed in the Pakistan Army,to bolster the Armored forces. Until Al Khalid II comes out in full production,you could buy one more model tank type either from the Chinese or maybe...well I guess Americans aren't selling anything to you when it comes...

defence.pk

(Mainly post #2930)

Pakistan Army's VT-4 Main Battle Tank | Updates & Discussions

We now seem to be going for local manufacturing or towards a new tank based on VT4. https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-hit-more-than-just-tanks.716118/ No ToT given for VT4, AK2 will independent tank of VT4

defence.pk

(Both posts about the ERA)

Al-Khalid tank (Type 90-IIM / MBT-2000) Information Pool

Ukraine would give the engine if we wanted it, they need any money they can get, plus given their historical co-operation with Pakistan (and other procurements with them in regards to APCs, T80UD upgrades, AK-1 engines and maybe even T929 in the future) means they might be willing to give us a...

defence.pk

(Post #1510)

Since the information is rather scattered, I’ll try to sum it up here:

India has made some really big mistakes in regards to its armored fleet, currently the best tank they operate is the T90S, which is early 2000s tech, inducted around the same time as the original Al-Khalid. Apart from maybe armor protection, it has no advantages over the Al-Khalid (AK has better firepower, Better FCS and sights, panoramic sights for commander, Much better ammunition and hence better firepower, better mobility etc).

While PA has further inducted AK-1 and VT-4P (both of which are very recent tanks and hence leagues ahead of T90S), india is still ordering more T90S (yes, more of exactly the same ones that it got in 2001), even though Russia has a better version (T90MS) available for sale (this purchase makes absolutely no sense given they initially ordered T90MS, but then canceled that and ordered more T90S instead, makes me think corruption was involved).

India has also made 0 upgrades to its T90S fleet since it was inducted and doesn’t seem to have any plans to upgrade them soon either, as they’ve made no progress on localizing it’s production in the last decade or making local upgrades for it (they still import stuff like engines, tracks and gun barrels for it because they only have partial ToT).

Going down to the older tanks of the two forces, PA has modernized its entire fleet of T80s and Type 85s to keep them relevant, of the 1700-1800 Indian T72s on the other hand, only 950 or so were modernized, the rest remain stock, and with how things are looking right now, india might be operating these stock T72s all the way to 2030, as the Arjun has basically failed and there’s nothing else to replace them with.
The PAs T80s and Type 85s are considerably superior to even the modernized Indian T72s.

The biggest issue with Indian tanks is the ammunition they use, 2/3rds of the Indian fleet (T90S and modernized T72) uses BM42 APFSDS, that’s Soviet ammo from the 80s with similar performance to ammo that PA inducted in the late 90s and early 2000s (IA only got this ammo post 2010, which also boggles me considering Russia had better ammo for sale by then, but I assume it has to do with the fact that india has not upgraded its tanks and hence cannot use the newer ammo, unlike PA which upgraded its older tanks to fire modern ammo).
The rest 1/3rd of the Indian fleet (stock T72s) use BM17 APFSDS, that ammo is comparable to the ammo fired by the obsolete Type 59s that PA is retiring. Meanwhile all of PAs tanks apart from the Type 59s/69s use Modern APFSDS ammo (more detail in one of the above links)

PA also has more (and better) tanks on order than the IA as it replaces its obsolete Type 59s and 69s with VT-4Ps. Come 2025, PAs fleet will be nearly matching IAs in size and considerably beating it in technology.

View attachment 792020

Also Indian tanks lack ACs the lack of ACs maynot effect crew performance in lets say punjab but in the deserts of thar it will definitely effect the performance of the crew.Indian T-90S and the T-72s also lack dedicated APUs,Al khalid,Al zarrar and T-80UD all have APUs and like you mentioned the FCS OF the T-90S is old 1A45 FCS has been present since T-80U and it also lacks Auto tracking if i am not wrong.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Also Indian tanks lack ACs the lack of ACs maynot effect crew performance in lets say punjab but in the deserts of thar it will definitely effect the performance of the crew.Indian T-90S and the T-72s also lack dedicated APUs,Al khalid,Al zarrar and T-80UD all have APUs and like you mentioned the FCS OF the T-90S is old 1A45 FCS has been present since T-80U and it also lacks Auto tracking if i am not wrong.

all of these are correct, some of it is in the links I posted, but it’s just generally the fact that their tanks and the technology inside them is old. Their most advanced FCS is Comparable to the one found in T80UD. They have nothing that compares to AK, AK-1, VT-4P etc.

ACs is a relevant point too, given how hot it gets in our regions. Our UDs lack ACs as well. Al-Khalid’s, VT-4s have them.

I could keep going about how they lack independent sights, let alone thermals for commander (present in AK series and VT-4), Thermal coatings (present on all PA tanks), thermal sights (present on all PA tanks apart from 1st Gen, but not present on 1/3rds of the Indian fleet).

 

[HRK]

Anything that know a thing or two about tanks would testify that any modern ATGM would pass through these relics like hot knife through butter
Plus Reshaping a turret with metal plates is shabby to say the least
not to mention that majority of Al Khalids & Al Zarrars roll without any ERA cover what so ever
those that do cover only the front of the turret where by leaving the side which makes for a larger target absolutely vulnerable
HIT is an incompetent company churning out death traps for our Troops without any consideration for R&D and study of the modern ATGM that are out there
We certainly arent gonna be pitching these tanks against militants armed with RPGs at best but against IA with far superior Firepower

I would ask you to read the about PA tanks in this forum plenty of information is available, and hope as a principle rule in future you would refrain yourself to pass general statements about the issues you don't have much info.

-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

As far as I know these reshaping plates of steel on the casted tturret are not just an ordinary steel but HHA amour plates, we know the weight of T-59 after upgrade to AZ standard has increased upto 8 tonnes so all this gain in weight is not occurred only by the change of engine or by the change of barrel of main gun.

 

[iLION12345_1]

I would ask you to read the about PA tanks in this forum plenty of information is available, and hope as a principle rule in future you would refrain yourself to pass general statements about the issues you don't have much info.

-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

As far as I know these reshaping plates of steel on the casted tturret are not just an ordinary steel but HHA amour plates, we know the weight of T-59 after upgrade to AZ standard has increased upto 8 tonnes so all this gain in weight is not occurred only by the change of engine or by the change of barrel of main gun.

The increase in weight was due to the addition of composite and HHS plates on the hull, the addition of the larger engine, larger gun and it’s breech, the semi-automatic loading system, the upgraded suspension, new stabilizers and FCS etc.

It is true that in the original AZs no extra armor was added to the turret apart from the ERA, the steel reshaping plates on top of the normal type 59 turret were just to give a good surface to mount ERA on. Going off pictures and my personal measurements at HIT, they are very thin. The hull however did get armor upgrades as I mentioned above.

But as I just mentioned a few posts back, HIT did later produce AZs with extra armor on the turret as well, it seems to be some form of composite going by the texture. I’ve put some photos down below to show it. One set of photos is from an AZ without the turret add on (only reshaping plates), other is with the turret add on (some sort of composite armor)

 

[Raja Porus]

The increase in weight was due to the addition of composite and HHS plates on the hull, the addition of the larger engine, larger gun and it’s breech, the semi-automatic loading system, the upgraded suspension, new stabilizers and FCS etc.

It is true that in the original AZs no extra armor was added to the turret apart from the ERA, the steel reshaping plates on top of the normal type 59 turret were just to give a good surface to mount ERA on. Going off pictures and my personal measurements at HIT, they are very thin. The hull however did get armor upgrades as I mentioned above.

But as I just mentioned a few posts back, HIT did later produce AZs with extra armor on the turret as well, it seems to be some form of composite going by the texture. I’ve put some photos down below to show it. One set of photos is from an AZ without the turret add on (only reshaping plates), other is with the turret add on (some sort of composite armor)View attachment 792048View attachment 792049View attachment 792050View attachment 792051View attachment 792052View attachment 792053

Thanks
The ones with turret add on are in service.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Thanks
The ones with turret add on are in service.

I’m yet to see them in service, but I wouldn’t doubt they are.

 

[Raja Porus]

I’m yet to see them in service, but I wouldn’t doubt they are.

The 6th amrd div has been equipped with the turret add on ones.
These pictures are of 2010:

Though I can't really guess if these are of 6th armd div but from the terrain and trees especially it seems to be Kharian-Gujranwala region.