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PIA plane crash near Model Colony Karachi with 93+ on board

Eid Mubarik to you too !!!

Why the pilot is not to be blamed or I'd say pointed out for their mistakes. It has a lot of pilot error written on it based on the public info. Has not been been fully investigated yet, not to mention chances are that they may not release findings to the Pakistani public as that would undermine the confidence of the already high status they have bestowed on fliers.
Khair Mubarik Sir! Thank you very much! Much obliged.

Sir I respect your views and of all the pilots and seniors here. I agree, pilots must be called out for their mistakes. And I also fully agree that by the findings that have been made public so far, all point towards pilot error. But again since we don`t have the complete comms recording that you have said would perhaps never be shared, the selective audio clips could mean anything. And this has created a void that my inner voice is somehow filling with telling me the pilot is not responsible for what has happened.

Once again, I am no pilot neither any air crash investigator. I am a layman and completely accept my deficiencies in my judgement.
 
IMHO he shouldn't have taken off when he scraped the runway for so long. Should've taken his chances on the ground rather than in the air. Hindsight is 20/20 of course and judging is easy as long as we're not in the pilots seat.

This is not just hindsight --- after a potentially very damaging belly landing/scraping like that, you STAY DOWN.

Usually pilots on jets have to re-certify every year in the US (someone correct me if i'm wrong, vaguely remember from Premier1Driver youtube video). I don't get how the pilot managed to put it down in the middle of the runway. He wasn't properly configured for landing is my opinion.

This has been pretty well established already.

He was too high and too fast. The ATC tried to warn him thrice.

Most A320 pilots on international forums feel that in the last 30-60s, he got so focused on fixing his botched approach (instead of abandoning it at 3'000 ft or so and doing a go around) that --- with limited situational awareness --- he totally forgot to lower the landing gear.

Hi,

The reason the control tower was not involved was because of the height and speed of the aircraft the ATC had not handed the aircraft over to the ground control tower---.

The landing gear did not come down was because the speed was above 250 knots where landing gear wuld not deploy---.

The not deployed landing gear chimes were on warning the pilot that the gear is not down---.

The question is what was the hurry to the pilot to descend so fast and land rather than going around and coming back---.

This is the crucial question---we understand that the Pilot was " hot dogging " the aircraft---but why and what caused him not to heed the warning of the air controller to go around---.

The other thin is---there were no other flights in the skies---no flights backing up---no worries of delays or late departure---what was the reason the pilot decided to land the first time---?

Likely any one, or a mix, of:
-arrogance/pride related to landing skill
-cultural reasons (pilots being 'top dog'); fear of being ridiculed for botching the initial approach
-potential inquiries for the improper approach
-etc

Absolutely insane.
 
Most A320 pilots on international forums feel that in the last 30-60s, he got so focused on fixing his botched approach (instead of abandoning it at 3'000 ft or so and doing a go around) that --- with limited situational awareness --- he totally forgot to lower the landing gear.
Sir this sounds very convincing.
 
Most A320 pilots on international forums feel that in the last 30-60s, he got so focused on fixing his botched approach (instead of abandoning it at 3'000 ft or so and doing a go around) that --- with limited situational awareness --- he totally forgot to lower the landing gear.

Doesn't A320's alert system warn the pilot that the landing gears are not lowered when landing?
 
Doesn't A320's alert system warn the pilot that the landing gears are not lowered when landing?
JETSTAR PILOTS FORGOT TO LOWER THE LANDING GEAR
By
Steve CreedyDecember 10, 2019
S




A Jetstar A320.
The pilots of a Jetstar A320 forgot to lower the landing gear as they approached Ballina airport in northern New South Wales and were forced to conduct a go-around after they were alerted to the oversight by a master warning.

The aircraft operating a flight from Sydney in May, 2018, had already conducted one go-around after the captain decided its airspeed and altitude were higher than a normal approach profile.



The Australian Transport Safety Bureau found the flight crew did not follow the Jetstar standard procedures during the first go-around and this created distractions that contributed to the landing gear oversight.

In particular, the flaps remained at the Flaps 3 position during the visual circuit rather than the company standard of Flaps 1.

The first go-around was performed correctly by the first officer until the Jetstar A320 reached the circuit altitude of 1500ft.

Watch the ATSB video reconstruction of the incident:

Video Player
https://www.airlineratings.com/wp-content/uploads/uploads/ATSBweb.mp4?_=2
00:00
00:42
As the first officer leveled the aircraft, it accelerated quickly towards the Flaps 3 limit speed and the FO called for approach mode to be activated to reduce the plane’s target speed.

Worried about a potential flaps overspeed, where the airspeed exceeds safe limits for the flap setting, the FO retarded the thrust levers to idle and by doing so de-activated the auto-thrust system and its protections.



“With Flaps 3 still set and 10-degree nose-up pitch altitude, the aircraft performance deteriorated, requiring intervention by the captain,’’ the ATSB said.

Other distractions affecting the crew included the fact the first officer was expecting a left circuit instead of a non-standard right circuit and had not been briefed about the change.

Adding to this was the handover of flight duties to the captain, the need to correct the flight path and the fact the captain continued to fly the aircraft manually, adding to his workload.

The captain elected to remain at Flaps 3, which investigators described as permissible and safe but not Jetstar’s standard configuration for a visual circuit.

“The operator’s sequence of configuring the aircraft for landing required the landing gear to be selected DOWN prior to the selection of Flaps 3,’’ The ATSB report said.

“As the captain turned on to the final approach during the second approach, he scanned the flight instruments, observed Flaps 3 already set and instinctively commanded Flaps FULL, which was the normal sequence from Flaps 3.

“The FO selected Flaps FULL but then also turned his attention to monitoring the aircraft’s flight path.

“As such, neither of the flight crew were aware that the landing gear had not been selected DOWN.”

Investigators said that because the pilots flew the second circuit at 1500ft, the Electronic Centralised Aircraft Monitor (ECAM) had not reset on the second approach and it did not display a landing memo at 950ft.

“The absence of the landing memo should have prompted the flight crew to perform the items of the landing checklist as a ‘read-and-do’ checklist,’’ it said.

“Had they read the required actions from the checklist, both the captain and FO would have been required to independently check and announce that the landing gear was down.

“This method should have effectively ‘trapped’ their error.”

When the landing memo did appear at 800ft, the crew were focused on intercepting the final approach path and performing radio calls and neither recalled seeing it.

“Both the captain and FO were subsequently alerted to the incorrect configuration for landing by a master warning message triggered at about 700 ft,’’ the report said.

The flight crew conducted a second go-around and landed without incident.

ATSB transport safety director Dr Start Godley said the incident highlighted the importance of adhering to standard operating procedures and correctly monitoring the aircraft’s approach.

“In this case a number of factors, such as distraction and limited use of aircraft automation, combined to result in the landing gear not being selected to down,” Dr Godley said.

“While highly undesirable, it should be noted that the aircraft’s warning system effectively alerted the flight crew to the problem and the crew responded promptly to the warning and initiated a second go-around.”

Jetstar said that as a result of the incident, the pilots attended debriefings with operations management and underwent specific simulator and line flying training related to the event.
 
When will the full results of the investigation going to be published. I am curious about the sequence of events here.
 
Doesn't A320's alert system warn the pilot that the landing gears are not lowered when landing?

Hi,

Yes it does---that what the chimes that you are hearing are for.

Normally there is one ding sound----.

Continuous chimes sound is multiple problems---some minor---others major issues---.

These don't get resolved while you are proceeding to land at 3500 feet elevation.

These you resolve by flying around the runway---resolving the warning sounds and then going for the landing---.

There is a prior conversation of the Pilot asking the traffic control at Lahore Airport as to why the runway lights were on when he was taking off---.

Pakistan does not have any A320 full flight simulators. They do courses abroad as usual to this day. With Covid impact I doubt anyone got recertified having not flown in 2 months or so. Still, their applied CRM paid the price.

Hi,

By simulation training I meant like an office meeting where the boss thru every thing that needs to be done for the day for the week for the month---.

Like a welcome back to the job---and instead of having a simulator---it all becomes a kind of a VERBAL episode of a refresher course---.

I hope the Pilots have their own personal flight simulator type programs on the PC's---.
 
Hi,

Yes it does---that what the chimes that you are hearing are for.

Normally there is one ding sound----.

Continuous chimes sound is multiple problems---some minor---others major issues---.

These don't get resolved while you are proceeding to land at 3500 feet elevation.

These you resolve by flying around the runway---resolving the warning sounds and then going for the landing---.

There is a prior conversation of the Pilot asking the traffic control at Lahore Airport as to why the runway lights were on when he was taking off---.



Hi,

By simulation training I meant like an office meeting where the boss thru every thing that needs to be done for the day for the week for the month---.

Like a welcome back to the job---and instead of having a simulator---it all becomes a kind of a VERBAL episode of a refresher course---.

I hope the Pilots have their own personal flight simulator type programs on the PC's--
-.
Sir I work in flight simulation, A320s are my main platforms. With all due respect, it does not work like that. Pilots need a sim check every few weeks to a month. A welcome back should include 2-3 days in the sims.
 
'No Eid in our home': Families mourn Karachi crash victims

Reuters | Updated May 26, 2020

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"When I saw the area, I realised that it would be a miracle if they had made it.." - Reuters

As Fazal Rahmaan, 80 and his wife, Wahida Rahmaan, 74, boarded a plane in the Pakistani city of Lahore on Friday, their family’s biggest fear was that they might get catch the coronavirus on their way to spend the holiday in Karachi.

Instead the couple, who had been married for 54 years, were among the 97 people killed when an Airbus A320, operated by Pakistan International Airlines, crashed into a Karachi neighbourhood — Pakistan’s worst air disaster since 2012.

“We held many calls deliberating with doctors and family ... Our biggest concern was that they made the trip safely,” said their son, Inam Ur Rahmaan, who instead of welcoming his parents for the Eidul Fitr holiday found himself picking through the wreckage of flight PK8303 praying for a miracle.

“I got in my car and followed the smoke and the ambulances,” said Rahmaan.


“When I saw the area, I realised that it would be a miracle if they had made it.”

There were two survivors from onboard the aircraft, while no fatalities were reported on the ground in the densely packed neighbourhood of multi-story homes abutting the eastern edge of Jinnah International Airport where the plane came down.

More than two dozen homes were damaged as the airliner roared in, leaving a tangle of severed electric cables and exposed rebar — a broken wing rested against the side of a home, an engine on the ground nearby.

The jet fuel set the wreckage ablaze, along with homes and vehicles, sending black smoke into the sky, a Reuters witness said.

Crowds rushed to the site, relatives searching for loved ones, rescue workers and the curious. Scores of ambulances and fire-engines jammed the narrow, debris-cluttered streets.

One rescue worker told Reuters two bodies were found with oxygen masks on. Many bodies pulled from the wreckage were charred beyond recognition.

The airline’s chief executive said on Friday the last message from the pilot indicated a technical problem. A team from Airbus is due to arrive on Monday to investigate, a PIA spokesman said.

“They’ll provide all possible assistance including decoding the black box,” the spokesman Khan, referring to the flight data recorder.

Screams and fire
Shahid Ahmed, 45, was at the airport waiting for his mother to arrive. When he reached the crash site he saw rescuers retrieving bodies and people taking selfies.

“There was no one responsible at the site, people were busy posing for pictures,” said a distraught Ahmed, who lost his mother, Dishad Begum, 75, who was also flying to Karachi for Eid.

After scouring the site and failing to find his mother, Ahmed went to look for her in hospitals.

There was no list of the dead or injured at any of the hospitals, it was all chaos and mismanagement,” said Ahmed, who sobbed as he recounted the ordeal.

“Searching for our mother’s body was a nightmare.”

One of the survivors, engineer Muhammad Zubair, told Geo News the pilot came down to land, briefly touched down, then pulled up again.

He announced he was going to make to make a second try shortly before the plane crashed, Zubair said from hospital.

“I could hear screams from all directions. Kids and adults. All I could see was fire. I couldn’t see any people – just hear their screams,” he said.

Rahmaan said his family was still in shock.

“There’s no Eid in our home,” he said.

Rahmaan said he took some comfort from knowing his parents always wanted to be with each other.

“Whatever’s happened, whatever the reason behind it, they always wanted to be together. At the end, they were together.”
 
Fail to understand why members of Pakistan Pilot association should be part of investigation team. When all investigation will be done by Airbus team.

@MastanKhan @Imran Khan ..sir ji pilot ko lagta ha roza lag gaya ...or he repeatedly take wrong decision to hide his mistake...
 
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Airbus experts visit PIA plane crash site in Karachi as probe opens

AP | Dawn.com Updated May 26, 2020

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Airbus experts arrive at Karachi airport for the PIA plane crash probe. - Photo courtesy: Radio Pakistan

Airbus experts on Tuesday initiated a probe into last week's plane crash that killed 97 people when a Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) Airbus A-320 went down in a crowded neighbourhood near Karachi airport.

Initial reports suggest the jet crashed after an apparent engine failure.

Aviation authorities said on Tuesday they have shared their initial findings with the visiting 11-member team from the European plane maker.

The Airbus experts and engineers also visited the crash site of flight PK-8303, where they were given a briefing by officials of the Aircraft Accident Investigation Board, Radio Pakistan reported.


Related: Question mark over body constituted to probe PIA crash

"We are providing all possible assistance to the technical experts of Airbus," said Abdul Hafeez, a spokesperson for PIA.

Only two people on board survived the crash, including Zafar Masood, a bank executive.

The flight took off from Lahore and crashed on Friday while trying to land at Jinnah International Airport.

The plane made failed attempts to land at the Karachi airport before the crash. Authorities found the plane's black box and have been guarding the crash site to facilitate the probe.

On the ground, 18 homes were damaged but no one was killed, mainly because the local residents were gathered at nearby mosques at the time, officials had said. Eight people on the ground were injured.

So far, authorities have handed over 41 bodies to their families, Hafeez said, adding that DNA tests were underway to identify the remains of the other victims.

The plane last received a government check last November. PIA's chief engineer signed a separate certificate on April 28, confirming all maintenance had been conducted. -Airbus has said the two-engine plane had logged 47,100 flight hours and 25,860 flights as of last Friday.

The crash took place days after the government allowed resumption of domestic flights ahead of Eidul Fitr. Many of the passengers aboard the flight were families returning home for the holiday.

Pakistan has been in a countrywide partial lockdown since mid-March because of the coronavirus, and when flights resumed last week, every other seat was left vacant to ensure social distancing.


Question mark over probe body composition

Baqir Sajjad Syed Updated May 24, 2020

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Firefighters spray water on the wreckage of a Pakistan International Airlines aircraft after it crashed at a residential area in Karachi on May 22 - AFP

ISLAMABAD: Representatives of pilots’ association and aviation experts have expressed concern over the handling of the investigation into the jetliner (PK-8303) crash by the air force-dominated probe team appointed by the government.

Pakistan Airlines’ Pilots Association (Palpa) Secretary Capt Imran Narejo, while talking to Dawn over phone on Saturday, said the “investigation team was not balanced”, because it lacked the representation of commercial pilots. Commercial pilots better understood the accidents involving commercial jetliners, he explained.

The federal government appointed a four-member “investigation team” comprising three officials of the Aircraft Accident Investigation Board, two of whom are Air Force officers, and the fourth member has been co-opted from Pakistan Air Force’s safety board. There is no commercial pilot in the team, which has been asked to submit its findings “within the shortest possible time”.

Another Palpa official, who did not want to be named, said it was crucial for any incident investigation to include a “rated pilot” for the type of the aircraft involved in the accident.


Federal government has appointed a four-member investigation team

Another senior pilot, who has in the past held senior management positions in PIA, concurred with this view and said that the absence of a pilot with experience on that particular type of aircraft would always remain a handicap for the investigation.

The reservations over the composition of the probe team pertain to their experience, specific knowledge about the crashed jet, and to an extent conflict of interest as a serving Air Marshal from PAF is heading PIA whose internal workings and condition of fleet would also come under question during the investigations.

PIA Chief Executive Office Air Marshal Arshad Malik addressing a press conference on Friday emphasised that the passenger plane was flight worthy and crew was adequately trained.

The pilots and aviation experts believe that Palpa, representatives of international pilots’ bodies, and an experienced pilot should have been included in the team to dig out facts and arrive at the right conclusion.

“It’s about preventing such accidents from recurring, irrespective of who is ultimately held responsible,” Capt Narejo insisted.

Events leading to crash

PIA’s A-320-214 bearing tail number AP-BLD with 99 on board crashed in Karachi, while repeating an attempt to land. Ninety-seven of the passengers perished in the crash, while two miraculously survived.

The investigators would have to look at the crash from various angles including the physical and mental condition of the pilot, flight worthiness of the aircraft, the malfunctioning suffered during the approach to landing, and any other factor/s that could have contributed to the accident.

The aircraft, while making its first approach to landing was, as per the conversation between the pilot and air control tower, at a higher altitude than the normal. It was at 3,500 feet at five miles. When the pilot was alerted by the control tower about the high altitude, he said he was “comfortable” with it and was approaching runway 25L. The aircraft, pilots say, should have ideally been at 1,600 feet at that point.

The two questions, which arise here, are why the aircraft had a belated descend and whether it was the right decision of the pilot to commit to landing instead of going for an orbit despite the unusual altitude.

His colleagues believe that management’s pressure for “efficiency” could be one of the reasons for this decision of the pilot. He may be thinking of being questioned about doing the orbit by the flight operations directorate, his colleagues suspect.

Moreover, an alarm could be heard in the cockpit during pilot’s conversation with tower when the tower was giving him clearance to land.

The alarm, which was described by a senior pilot as “master warning” is related to configuration issues. Either the aircraft was at higher speed for the flap configuration at that time or his landing gear had malfunctioned. The alarm could also be due to a dual hydraulic failure or engine(s) catching fire.

It would be pertinent to know what caused that alarm and the pilot in the recorded conversations is not heard mentioning the malfunctioning at that point of time to the tower.

However, the pilot then chose to ‘go around’ and said he will come back for 25L. This (go-around) is a technical term for aborted landing and can be requested by either pilot or directed by the air tower because of issues in landing. The reason for going around has to be determined by the investigators and in greatly possibility was linked to the factor behind the alarm in the cockpit.

The tower then asked him to pull up to 3,000 feet and turn left heading 110. However, minutes later the tower told the pilot that he was dropping to 2,000 feet. In response the pilot took a brief sigh and said he was trying to maintain that altitude. Soon afterwards he reported loss of engine and said he was “proceeding direct” meaning that he was going for a crash landing.

The controller cleared the flight to land with both runways (25L and 25R) available. However, pilot could be heard giving distress signal “May Day, May Day, May Day”.

Picture of the aircraft at this position show that RAT air turbine had been deployed, which is an indication that both engines had shut down. The turbine, pilots say, provide for the continued functioning of flight controls in the event of hydraulic malfunctioning. However, the flight controls in such a condition are “partial and sluggish”, according to a pilot.

The investigators would have to see what caused both engines to stop working. It could be a bird hit or the pilot accidentally shutting off the wrong engine. It is rare for both engines to shut down simultaneously.

Published in Dawn, May 24th, 2020
 
Multiple reports indicate there are deep engine scratch marks on the runway. Apparently, #PIA8303 A320 landing gear did not deploy and both engines failed in first attempt. Q: Should Capt Gul have completed belly landing in first attempt? #Pakistan #PIA https://www.riazhaq.com/2018/04/aviation-boom-in-india-and-pakistan.html
I believe so. Not sure how fast he must have been coming in on finals but has to have been quite higher than landing speed to bounce back after touching down on the runway a few times.
 
Some points still pending. We can't conclude yet its pilot error without them.

1. The CCTV video of runway. (It can show if landing gear was stuck and aircraft touches the ground)
2. The contol Tower conversation before first attempt. (currently only available on second attempt of landing and aircraft crashes)
3. Decoding the black box and check the conversation if there is any problem in landing gear..
Airbus will interview the last team of engineers who check and pass the plane. If you guys remember on first day of incidence , ARYNEWS run the news, that engineering department stop the plane 3 times for engine inspection...... why !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
it is very easy to put the blame on dead..because they cannot defend.... investigation has been diverted toward pilot errors from day one and it was all started from the last few moments audio conversation released witin few hours of incident between ATC and pilot.
.team of investagtors are also questionable so...
PIA has a long track record of technical issues in past how many have been punished?
1 so investigation should be carried out through international investigators
2 who is responsible for first time landing gear problem?
3 if the landing gears were not in position why ATC did't informed it to pilot? and why allowed it to land?
frankely i am feeling this investigation has ended even before it started through intentionally creation of pilot error narrative
 
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