Punjab and the British Indian Army

[Joe Shearer]

Sikh are a mystery, even the non-martial Dalit Sikhs have their regiment (SLI) but Muslims don't, is it simply the legacy of Sikh empire or something more?
@Joe Shearer @xeuss

Whoa. So many questions all together.

The so-called non-martial Dalit Sikhs were quite cut up at not being given a chance to fight, because even in Ranjit Singh's army, they had been attached to regular Jat regiments in company strength. The British recruited them as Pioneers first, and this phase of their existence continued until 1933, when they (two regiments separately) were disbanded.Nobody needs Sappers in peacetime. They were raised again during the war, in 1941, and a very bland name, the Mazhabi and Ramdasia Sikhs, was changed to the Sikh Light Infantry.

Muslims don't have their regiment? That's because the main Muslim recruiting regiments went off to the Pakistan Army. The Punjab Regiment, the premier regiment, was largely PMs, and they went to the Pakistan Army. So both the PA and the IA have a Punjab Regiment, both regiments tough as nails. The Pakistan Army was constituted of precisely the Muslim components of British Indian Army regiments, whether of Rajput Muslims, Ranghars (UP Muslims settled in Haryana and the Punjab) or Punjabi Muslims. The three regiments in that Army that have a background in the British Indian Army are the Punjab Regiment, the Baloch Regiment and the Frontier Force Regiment. I don't know much about the other regiments; it appears that they have been raising a regiment for every region, so, one for their section of Kashmir, Azad Kashmir, one for the Gilgit-Baltistan region, the Northern Light Infantry, and one general Territorial Army kind of regiment. Also one for the Sindh.

The point is that the Muslim regiments, the Punjab, the Baloch and the FF, went off to Pakistan. But contrary to your impression, recruitment of Muslims was always done into the Indian Army, into mixed regiments that were not designated for a single ethnic group. For instance, the Grenadiers (that are the oldest Grenadier regiment in the Commonwealth, and older than the Grenadier Guards by designation as Grenadiers by more than 50 years); or the Guards regiment itself. There are several more.

Sikh are a mystery, even the non-martial Dalit Sikhs have their regiment (SLI) but Muslims don't, is it simply the legacy of Sikh empire or something more?
@Joe Shearer @xeuss


I was just expecting that according the Martial race theory, only caste would matter in recruitment but religion also did.

No, it didn't. Sikhs, Hindus and Muslims were all recruited; there are three exclusively Sikh regiments, six exclusively Hindu (of different ethnicities) regiments (Dogra, Jat, Kumaon, Garhwal, Mahar, Maratha Light Infantry, Assam), one tribal (Naga), seven Gorkha (1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 8th, 9th from the old British Indian regiments and the new 11th). Grenadiers, Guards, Paras were all open to anybody and everybody.

I haven't really done any major research into this, and I may be wrong in one or two details, but this is the broad structure.

That structure related only to enlisted men, not to officers. Anyone who goes through the SSB and the NDA is an officer, besides those that join one step later through OTAs.

 

[Naofumi]

Whoa. So many questions all together.

The so-called non-martial Dalit Sikhs were quite cut up at not being given a chance to fight, because even in Ranjit Singh's army, they had been attached to regular Jat regiments in company strength. The British recruited them as Pioneers first, and this phase of their existence continued until 1933, when they (two regiments separately) were disbanded.Nobody needs Sappers in peacetime. They were raised again during the war, in 1941, and a very bland name, the Mazhabi and Ramdasia Sikhs, was changed to the Sikh Light Infantry.

Muslims don't have their regiment? That's because the main Muslim recruiting regiments went off to the Pakistan Army. The Punjab Regiment, the premier regiment, was largely PMs, and they went to the Pakistan Army. So both the PA and the IA have a Punjab Regiment, both regiments tough as nails. The Pakistan Army was constituted of precisely the Muslim components of British Indian Army regiments, whether of Rajput Muslims, Ranghars (UP Muslims settled in Haryana and the Punjab) or Punjabi Muslims. The three regiments in that Army that have a background in the British Indian Army are the Punjab Regiment, the Baloch Regiment and the Frontier Force Regiment. I don't know much about the other regiments; it appears that they have been raising a regiment for every region, so, one for their section of Kashmir, Azad Kashmir, one for the Gilgit-Baltistan region, the Northern Light Infantry, and one general Territorial Army kind of regiment. Also one for the Sindh.

The point is that the Muslim regiments, the Punjab, the Baloch and the FF, went off to Pakistan. But contrary to your impression, recruitment of Muslims was always done into the Indian Army, into mixed regiments that were not designated for a single ethnic group. For instance, the Grenadiers (that are the oldest Grenadier regiment in the Commonwealth, and older than the Grenadier Guards by designation as Grenadiers by more than 50 years); or the Guards regiment itself. There are several more.

But governments could have have re-raised some of those regiments that went to Pakistan, for example we still a lot of Ranghars in India. And I think, Sikhs got even more than Hindus - the Chamar regiment was also not re-raised again but SLI was.

No, it didn't. Sikhs, Hindus and Muslims were all recruited; there are three exclusively Sikh regiments, six exclusively Hindu (of different ethnicities) regiments (Dogra, Jat, Kumaon, Garhwal, Mahar, Maratha Light Infantry, Assam), one tribal (Naga), seven Gorkha (1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 8th, 9th from the old British Indian regiments and the new 11th). Grenadiers, Guards, Paras were all open to anybody and everybody.

I haven't really done any major research into this, and I may be wrong in one or two details, but this is the broad structure.

That structure related only to enlisted men, not to officers. Anyone who goes through the SSB and the NDA is an officer, besides those that join one step later through OTAs and the RIMC.

So, what explains Sikh Jats outnumbering Muslim Jats in Army when Muslim Jats were much more than Sikh ones?

 

[Joe Shearer]

But governments could have have re-raised some of those regiments that went to Pakistan, for example we still a lot of Ranghars in India. And I think, Sikhs got even more than Hindus - the Chamar regiment was also not re-raised again but SLI was.

There is a lot of resistance to raising new regiments, although in spite of that, the Bihar and the Naga were raised, and under severe pressure from JJ Singh, when he was Governor in the north-east, several regional light infantry regiments both in the north-east and in Ladakh. Actually, the Ladakh contingent was raised quite a while back.

There is no regiment outside the old 'martial races' area except for the Mahars, the Grenadiers, the Madras, the Bihar, the Assam and the Naga. These are the infantry regiments. The cavalry regiments are quite mixed, and the old ethnic ties have more or less disappeared.

So, what explains Sikh Jats outnumbering Muslim Jats in Army when Muslim Jats were much more than Sikh ones?

The Sikhs flooded in - it's become less as they became more and more rich and prosperous, but it is still the heaviest weight in the officer segment. The old Army families still tend to look to the Army as an honourable profession and a desirable one. Of my batch at school (Sainik School), the Sikhs outnumbered all the others; the seniormost retired as CO of the Bihar Regiment. Other ethnicities (my school only) were Bengali, Assamese and Naga (Haralu, who joined the Air Force and gave that institution ulcers). The Nagas from the school didn't flood the armed forces, but they did run their state until about a decade or so ago.

One reason why JJ Singh and his group keenly resented the absence of a Sikh COAS till he got the position was the overwhelming presence of Sikhs everywhere. In the opinion of @PanzerKielf , Harbaksh getting it after Muchu Chaudhuri would have been an appropriate end to a glorious career. Cannot disagree with that, except that we would then have lost Manekshaw. After a man makes three stars, it is very, very difficult to choose between one and the other.

 

[Naofumi]

The Sikhs flooded in

I am asking this question only, why did they flooded in more than their weight, one of the answer seems straightforward - Sikh Empire was run by Sikh Jat foot soldiers and that goes back to Sikh Jat misls. Is it the only reason that Muslim Jats lagged behind later?

 

[xeuss]

As many may have heard, there were many theories on why India and Pakistan came into being.

One theory that I have heard, and this is independently from both Pakistani Punjabis and Indian Sikhs, is that Nehru and the British did not want a Punjabi dominated army in a unified India. They felt that the Punjabi dominated army would sooner, rather than later, rule from Delhi and would present an existential threat to the "establishment".

@Joe Shearer @masterchief_mirza your thoughts?

 

[Joe Shearer]

I am asking this question only, why did they flooded in more than their weight, one of the answer seems straightforward - Sikh Empire was run by Sikh Jat foot soldiers and that goes back to Sikh Jat misls. Is it the only reason that Muslim Jats lagged behind later?

Oh no, I don't think so. The major shift came after 1857. By then, who was what in the Ranjit Singh army hardly mattered. The British wanted an excuse to get rid of the Pandes and the Ojhas (mutineers were actually called Pandeys by the British), and they did. The Punjabi martial tradition was an excuse. The Sikhs themselves had been fought by the Bihari who was being thrown out.

The amusing thing is that these same Pandeys and Ojhas had helped the British defeat Oudh (Awadh), Rohilkhand, the Sikhs, the Marathas (more the Mahars than the Biharis), the Nizam (together with troops from the south), the Nawab of the Carnatic (southern Thambis), Tipu Sultan (again, Thambis), and the Rajputs (Mahars and the coastal levies, including Muslims). The composition of the early contingents in the Afghan wars, when the British passed through Sikh and Sindhi territories to get at Afghanistan, were certainly not martial races.

Suddenly in 1857, Indians became non-martial, and the southern regiments overnight became Punjabi regiments. The Punjab Regiment owes its seniority to the soldiers from the Tamil areas who were first recruited by the British.

You should read Major Amin on the subject. The martial races theory was the biggest hoax played by the British on Indians.

 

[Naofumi]

@Joe Shearer but British called Pandeys (Brahmins) "Oldest martial race"..

 

[Joe Shearer]

As many may have heard, there were many theories on why India and Pakistan came into being.

One theory that I have heard, and this is independently from both Pakistani Punjabis and Indian Sikhs, is that Nehru and the British did not want a Punjabi dominated army in a unified India. They felt that the Punjabi dominated army would sooner, rather than later, rule from Delhi and would present an existential threat to the "establishment".

@Joe Shearer @masterchief_mirza your thoughts?

LOLOL. A bit far-fetched, but a thought in many minds. Read P. L. Tandon's book, Punjabi Century.

@Joe Shearer but British called Pandeys (Brahmins) "Oldest martial race"..

Not after '57.

In a way, the Bihari was for the British Empire what the Anatolian was for the Ottoman Empire.

 

[Naofumi]

Not after '57.

In a way, the Bihari was for the British Empire what the Anatolian was for the Ottoman Empire.

What about 1st Brahman regiment that was continued and recruited from UP and Garhwali Brahmans? Maybe focused shifted towards west (UP) and the importance reduced but it did not died out completely.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Brahmans

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Naofumi
@xeuss

A private joke - tell it not in Gath, proclaim it not in the streets of Ashkalon -

Do you know what the Gorkha who goes to war for an outsider, not for the King's Army, is called (even today)?

Lahure - they were first recruited into Ranjit Singh's Army!!!

What about 1st Brahman regiment that was continued and recruited from UP and Garhwali Brahmans? Maybe focused shifted towards west (UP) and the importance reduced but it did not died out completely.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Brahmans

There were always exceptions. The 1st Brahmans were one of the few Bengal regiments to survive the Mutiny. You can imagine why the British were reluctant to let go of that particular regiment.

Did you know that there was a (very short-lived) Bengal regiment that saw combat? One of its soldiers wrote the finest marching songs in the entire sub-continent, presently appropriated quite brazenly by the Bangladeshis. Even the Mahars were an exception.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Sikh are a mystery, even the non-martial Dalit Sikhs have their regiment (SLI) but Muslims don't, is it simply the legacy of Sikh empire or something more?
@Joe Shearer @xeuss


I was just expecting that according the Martial race theory, only caste would matter in recruitment but religion also did.

Not really, in Panjab they recruited specific casts too. Sikh and Muslim castes overlap in Panjab. We too have castes like Jatts, Rajputs, Arians, Shiekhs and so on.

 

[Naofumi]

Not really, in Panjab they recruited specific casts too. Sikh and Muslim castes overlap in Panjab. We too have castes like Jatts, Rajputs, Arians, Shiekhs and so on.

I know this but my comment was on a different issue, NVM.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Not really, in Panjab they recruited specific casts too. Sikh and Muslim castes overlap in Panjab. We too have castes like Jatts, Rajputs, Arians, Shiekhs and so on.

Jats are Hindu, Muslim and Sikh;
Rajputs are Hindu, Muslim and Sikh;
Khatris are Hindu, Muslim and Sikh;
Arains are only Muslim;
Sheikhs are only Muslim;
Ranghars are only Muslim;
I don't know of any Khokhars or Gakkars who aren't Muslim.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

But governments could have have re-raised some of those regiments that went to Pakistan, for example we still a lot of Ranghars in India. And I think, Sikhs got even more than Hindus - the Chamar regiment was also not re-raised again but SLI was.

So, what explains Sikh Jats outnumbering Muslim Jats in Army when Muslim Jats were much more than Sikh ones?

Ranghars werent part of any specific/distinct units neither were other regiments based on castes..
And you need local Panjabi muslims to re establish units that already existed and were transferred to Pak Army.

If you are interested in reading actual recruitment patterns, read David Omissis works.

Jats are Hindu, Muslim and Sikh;
Rajputs are Hindu and Muslim;
Khatris are Hindu and Sikh;
Arains are only Muslim;
Sheikhs are only Muslim;
Ranghars are only Muslim;
I don't know of any Khokhars or Gakkars who aren't Muslim.

Actually there are Sikh Rajputs too.. banda bahadur Singh was a Sikh Rajout.

Gakhars and Khokhars are entirely muslim.

But there are Kamboh Sikhs/Muslims and Hindus??

 

[Naofumi]

Khokhars

I think there are Khokhar Jats in Haryana.

But there are Kamboh Sikhs/Muslims and Hindus??

Yup, and Saini too (market gardeners same as Arains)