Why should an aircraft carrier be sunk instead of recycling?

[graphican]

Hi fellows,

US has sunk one of its aircraft carriers and many other naval boats in the last few decades. For the aircraft carrier, they say it was done to create an artificial coral reef, which I do not buy as they are wasting thousands of tuns of metal and causing harm to the environment the same time.

So what is the prime motivation behind such sinking? India too is looking to sink Sindhurakshak submarine . So what is making them do that?

 

[StraightShooter]

Hi fellows,

US has sunk one of its aircraft carriers and many other naval boats in the last few decades. For the aircraft carrier, they say it was done to create an artificial coral reef, which I do not buy as they are wasting thousands of tuns of metal and causing harm to the environment the same time.

So what is the prime motivation behind such sinking? India too is looking to sink Sindhurakshak submarine . So what is making them do that?

It's purely a cost issue.

Indian Navy wants the warship to be possibly converted into a museum, hotel or preserved as a relic of maritime history. But the big question is who will take the cost burden (Customer)? Initially the state of AP showed interest but seems like it is not working due to cost & ROI.

INS Viraat to turn into maritime museum in Vizag, says CM Chandrababu Naidu

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...CM-Chandrababu-Naidu/articleshow/50912781.cms

After 57-years of service, no takers for the retiring INS Viraat
INS Viraat

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DEEVAKAR ANAND | Sat, 7 May 2016-09:05am , New Delhi , DNA
Last year, in August, the Navy, which is keen to see Viraat converted into a tourist attraction like a museum, had shared its concern with the ministry of defence (MoD).


Fifty-seven years of distinguished service later, first as HMS Hermes in the Royal British Navy and then with the Indian Navy since 1987, the warhorse INS Viraat is staring at an undignified end of its life cycle.

Now, already due for decommissioning, the aircraft carrier that has a glorious history, including participation in the Falklands war of 1982, has no takers. It faces similar fate as the 1971 war hero INS Vikrant which was reduced to a heap of scrap in 2014 after preserved as a museum in Mumbai from 1997 and 2012.

Last year, in August, the Navy, which is keen to see Viraat converted into a tourist attraction like a museum, had shared its concern with the ministry of defence (MoD). MoD, in turn, wrote to nine maritime state governments -- West Bengal, Odisha, Andhra Pradesh, Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Karnataka, Goa, Maharashtra and Gujarat -- asking them if they would be interested in taking the custody of the decommissioned ship.

Although some of them have shown interest, none has come up with a feasible model to maintain the decommissioned warship which involves huge costs, a senior MoD functionary told dna.

Notably, the Andhra Pradesh government took over the submarine INS Kursura after its decommissioning in 2001 and converted it into a museum that is a major tourist attraction in Vishakapatnam.

Andhra Pradesh chief minister Chandrababu Naidu, in fact, wrote a letter to defence minister Manohar Parrikar last year showing interest in INS Viraat. However, after that, there has been no follow-up, said the MoD functionary. The functionary added that the defence secretary's office will soon send fresh letters in this regard to the chief secretaries of the nine maritime states.

Sources said that that the Navy is keen to preserve the rich legacy of Viraat but has little resources, both monetary and human, to dispense with for a ship not in use and would otherwise divert them to new and existing ships.

INS Viraat, which is the only existing aircraft carrier of the Indian Navy besides INS Vikramaditya, has a strength of about 1,500 officers and sailors, including the aviation crew. It participated at the multi-nation International Fleet Review in February as its last operational deployment. Its full complement includes six Sea Harrier fighter jets, six Sea King anti-submarine warfare helicopters and four Chetak helicopters.

Chetak and Sea King anti-submarine warfare helicopters.

"Viraat has to go for the final dry docking at Cochin before decommissioning. We are looking to find takers for it before we let it retire," said a senior naval officer.



http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-no-takers-for-the-retiring-ins-viraat-2209972

 

[applesauce]

Hi fellows,

US has sunk one of its aircraft carriers and many other naval boats in the last few decades. For the aircraft carrier, they say it was done to create an artificial coral reef, which I do not buy as they are wasting thousands of tuns of metal and causing harm to the environment the same time.

So what is the prime motivation behind such sinking? India too is looking to sink Sindhurakshak submarine . So what is making them do that?

it does not cause environmental damage, ships and other things are cleaned, oil and other polluting parts are are removed before they sink it, essentially only the metal is sunk, and it's actually very good for fish as a shelter and something for corral to grown on.

 

[gambit]

It cost money to recycle, believe it or not.

The larger and more complex the item to be recycled, the more it cost to break it down, then you have to sell its aggregates, whatever they might be, at prices to recoup your expenditures and to make a worthwhile profit.

So when you are looking at something as massive like an aircraft carrier, which is much more complex than a luxury yacht or even a oil tanker, you are not going to have a lot of experience people who can dismantle the ship in a safe and expeditious manner. Storing it while you search for salvage companies willing to take the job cost you money.

In the absolute, any ship can be broken down and its aggregates recycled, but it is much cheaper and quicker to clean up the hulk, find a location, and sink it.

 

[Penguin]

Hi fellows,

US has sunk one of its aircraft carriers and many other naval boats in the last few decades. For the aircraft carrier, they say it was done to create an artificial coral reef, which I do not buy as they are wasting thousands of tuns of metal and causing harm to the environment the same time.

So what is the prime motivation behind such sinking? India too is looking to sink Sindhurakshak submarine . So what is making them do that?

USS America (CV-66) was originally scheduled to undergo a Service Life Extension Program (SLEP) in 1996 for subsequent retirement in 2010. However, she fell victim to budget cuts and was instead retired early by the U.S. Navy. She was decommissioned in a ceremony at Norfolk Naval Shipyard in Portsmouth, Virginia on 9 August 1996. She was planned to be sold for scrapping. However, she was then chosen to be a live-fire test and evaluation platform in 2005, to aid the design of future aircraft carriers.

On 25 February 2005, a ceremony to salute the ship and her crew was held at the ship's pier in Philadelphia, attended by former crew members and various dignitaries. She then departed the Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility on 19 April 2005 to conduct the aforementioned tests. The experiments lasted approximately four weeks. The Navy tested the ship with underwater explosives, watching from afar and through monitoring devices placed on the vessel. These explosions were designed to simulate underwater attacks.

After the completion of the tests, the ship was sunk in a controlled scuttling on 14 May 2005 at approximately 11:30. The sinking was publicized six days later. At the time, no warship of that size had ever been sunk, and effects were closely monitored; theoretically the tests would reveal data about how supercarriers respond to battle damage. In response to a Freedom of Information Act request from former America veterans,[8] the U.S. Navy released the exact location where America was sunk: 33°09′09″N 71°39′07″W, around 250 mi (400 km) southeast of Cape Hatteras. The wreck lies upright in one piece 16,860 ft (5,140 m) below the surface of the Atlantic Ocean

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_America_(CV-66)
___________________
Ship disposal

A number of different methods exist for disposing of a ship after it has reached the end of its effective or economic service life with an organisation

Although many options are technically possible, some, such as deep water sinking, are not used for non-military vessels, or have come under increased scrutiny. Options currently available include:

• Hulking
• Ship breaking (involving recycling)
• Use as an artificial reef
• Donation
• Sale for re-use
• Floating (or drydock) storage
• Deep water sinking

Artificial reefing is the sinking of ships offshore to form reefs. Before sinking, the vessel needs to have all toxic components and electrical devices removed. Depending on the ship design this may be done relatively easily, although some designs present certain difficulties. Also the reef location needs to be determined. For these, approval must be obtained from the state authorities. According to the Rand Corporation, artificial reefing to form wreck diving sites is however still a profitable option, as the reefs are anticipated to be visited by tourists, thus generating an income

Deep water sinking or SINKEX is the sinking of ships during target practice. Before the ships are sunk they are cleaned of all toxic components and devices, so that no environmental pollution should occur.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_disposal
___________________

In general, A live fire exercise or LFX is any military exercise in which a realistic scenario for the use of specific equipment is demonstrated. In the popular lexicon this is applied primarily to tests of weapons or weapon systems that are associated with the various branches of a nation's armed forces, although the term can be applied to the civilian arena as well.

Naval live fire exercises may use anti-ship missiles and torpedoes, although tests involving air-to-air and air-to-surface missile, guns and bombs are not uncommon. Navies conduct live fire exercises to test elements of an integrated defense system, such as the US Aegis; namely, its ability to track and destroy enemy anti-ship missiles. Tests can also include an integrated defense system's compatibility to fire new missiles or newer versions of the same missile. Live fire tests are also conducted with a CIWS system, which is designed as the last line of defense for a ship. Surface ships also frequently test-fire the various guns kept and maintained aboard the vessel; these can range from sidearms and rifles up to the 16" guns of the mothballed US Iowa-class battleships. This is done to maintain the skill and knowledge needed to operate the weapon. In the case of aircraft carriers, the pilots assigned to the carrier may conduct air-to-air and air-to-surface missile exercises similar to those of the air force; additionally, these pilots may also conduct live fire exercises against derelict ships. Recent aircraft carriers have incorporated missile-launching systems, and have taken part in live fire exercises involving missiles. For submarines, both fast attack and ballistic missile (or "boomers"), live fire tests may include firing sea-to-land missiles at targets on shore or launching dummy ballistic missiles; however, the most frequent live fire exercises conducted by submarines involve firing torpedoes at a target. The best-known tests of torpedoes are those conducted against a derelict ship, typically on a ship from a navy's own mothball fleet that has become too old or obsolete to warrant maintaining. The purpose of these tests is to ensure that the torpedo will work under combat conditions, and such tests can be used to determine whether or not noisemakers or other decoys will have any effect against the unit when launched.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_fire_exercise#Naval_forces

The US military term Sink Exercise (SINKEX) is used for the test of a weapons system usually involving a torpedo or missile attack of an unmanned target ship. The US Navy uses SINKEX to train its sailors on the usage of modern-day weapons.
A target ship is a vessel — typically an obsolete or captured warship — used as a seaborne target for naval gunnery practice or for weapons testing. Targets may be used with the intention of testing effectiveness of specific types of ammunition; or the target ship may be used for an extended period of routine target practice with specialized non-explosive ammunition. The potential consequences of a drifting wreck require careful preparation of the target ship to prevent pollution, or a floating or submerged collision risk for maritime navigation.Sinking redundant warships is an effective way of testing new weapons and warships in as realistic a manner as possible. Whilst practice torpedoes are fired fairly frequently, they behave differently from warshots.
This technique is used to dispose of decommissioned warships. The US Navy performs SINKEXs north of Kauai, Hawaii, in the Pacific Ocean off the coast of California, and near Puerto Rico.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Target_ship
_________

An artificial reef is a human-made underwater structure, typically built to promote marine life in areas with a generally featureless bottom, to control erosion, block ship passage, or improve surfing.


Many reefs are built using objects that were built for other purposes, for example by sinking oil rigs (through the Rigs-to-Reefs program), scuttling ships, or by deploying rubble or construction debris. Other artificial reefs are purpose built (e.g. the reef balls) from PVC or concrete. Shipwrecks may become artificial reefs when preserved on the sea floor. Regardless of construction method, artificial reefs generally provide hard surfaces where algae and invertebrates such as barnacles, corals, and oysters attach; the accumulation of attached marine life in turn provides intricate structure and food for assemblages of fish.

Some of these artificial wrecks are sunk deliberately to attract divers (i.e. associated with developing tourism).

Some artificial reefs are used to prevent coastal erosion. Artificial reefs that are used to prevent coastal erosion can be designed to act in several ways. Some are designed to force waves to break off shore and deposit their energy in a different area than directly on the coastline and ripping apart beaches and establishments. Other reefs are designed to hold in sediment on beaches. These reefs trap the sediment and prevent the sediment from being dispersed. The reefs are specifically designed for each unique zone to preserve the existing coast from erosion.

Since reefs have been damaged by human caused environmental and ecological changes such as overfishing, people have started creating artificial reefs. Artificial reefs can show quick increases in local fish population rehabilitation, coral reef, and algae growth. Though the quick positive response that artificial reefs tend to show is often interpreted wrongly and the overall impact on the ecosystem is overlooked. It is not completely clear that artificial reefs have a net benefit. There are concerns such as toxicity from paint, plastics parts, etc., damage to ecosystems and concentrating fish into one place (worsening overfishing)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_reef

 

[graphican]

It cost money to recycle, believe it or not.

The larger and more complex the item to be recycled, the more it cost to break it down, then you have to sell its aggregates, whatever they might be, at prices to recoup your expenditures and to make a worthwhile profit.

So when you are looking at something as massive like an aircraft carrier, which is much more complex than a luxury yacht or even a oil tanker, you are not going to have a lot of experience people who can dismantle the ship in a safe and expeditious manner. Storing it while you search for salvage companies willing to take the job cost you money.

In the absolute, any ship can be broken down and its aggregates recycled, but it is much cheaper and quicker to clean up the hulk, find a location, and sink it.

@gambit,

Sir I am sure in most cases, cost of recycling would be higher than the recovered materials. But recycling is not something which we do as business. Recycling is a social obligation but for governments, it should be a requirement. @Penguin has explained that it was used for target practice after which recycling may have been impossible as ship might have sunk to some levels already.

I hope for future retirements, USA would reserve and spend money for recycling such a mammoth ships. Environment is a shared resource and one person's excuse of being short of money would harm every other person.

 

[Grevion]

Recycling and maintaining costs more then sinking the rusty airframe

 

[Penguin]

@gambit,

Sir I am sure in most cases, cost of recycling would be higher than the recovered materials. But recycling is not something which we do as business. Recycling is a social obligation but for governments, it should be a requirement. @Penguin has explained that it was used for target practice after which recycling may have been impossible as ship might have sunk to some levels already.

I hope for future retirements, USA would reserve and spend money for recycling such a mammoth ships. Environment is a shared resource and one person's excuse of being short of money would harm every other person.

USS America was scuttled in a controlled manner. Which implies that the tests did not put her in a half sunken state, or so.

 

[randomradio]

Hi fellows,

US has sunk one of its aircraft carriers and many other naval boats in the last few decades. For the aircraft carrier, they say it was done to create an artificial coral reef, which I do not buy as they are wasting thousands of tuns of metal and causing harm to the environment the same time.

So what is the prime motivation behind such sinking? India too is looking to sink Sindhurakshak submarine . So what is making them do that?

There's only one reason for it. China.

Due to the huge influx of Chinese steel into the market, the cost of buying new steel is now cheaper than using scrap metal. The largest shipbreaking industry is in India, 50% of the world's ships are scrapped in India, and it's dying out because of cheap steel.

The USG mandates that all USN ships have to be scrapped on US soil. Which means, the USN cannot outsource it. If the shipbreaking industry can barely survive in India, then it has no chance in the US. So, the USN has no choice but to scuttle their ships instead.

 

[Penguin]

There's only one reason for it. China.

Due to the huge influx of Chinese steel into the market, the cost of buying new steel is now cheaper than using scrap metal. The largest shipbreaking industry is in India, 50% of the world's ships are scrapped in India, and it's dying out because of cheap steel.

The USG mandates that all USN ships have to be scrapped on US soil. Which means, the USN cannot outsource it. If the shipbreaking industry can barely survive in India, then it has no chance in the US. So, the USN has no choice but to scuttle their ships instead.

Which also nicely prevents other nations from taking a peak at the design of US ships. Especially the larger ones like CVs, LHAs etc.

 

[randomradio]

Which also nicely prevents other nations from taking a peak at the design of US ships. Especially the larger ones like CVs, LHAs etc.

That's the only reason actually. Imagine getting a carrier scrapped in China. You will see copies of it the next day.

 

[MastanKhan]

It cost money to recycle, believe it or not.

The larger and more complex the item to be recycled, the more it cost to break it down, then you have to sell its aggregates, whatever they might be, at prices to recoup your expenditures and to make a worthwhile profit.

So when you are looking at something as massive like an aircraft carrier, which is much more complex than a luxury yacht or even a oil tanker, you are not going to have a lot of experience people who can dismantle the ship in a safe and expeditious manner. Storing it while you search for salvage companies willing to take the job cost you money.

In the absolute, any ship can be broken down and its aggregates recycled, but it is much cheaper and quicker to clean up the hulk, find a location, and sink it.

Hi,

So Gambit----what do you say about the F35 display at Paris air show.

 

[gambit]

Hi,

So Gambit----what do you say about the F35 display at Paris air show.

Am traveling. Currently in Dayton, Oh. Business and pleasure. The hotel's Internet is cheaper than expected, so I have not been able to see the vids.

 

[MastanKhan]