Why 'secular' Narendra Modi bashers must be ignored

[jayron]

Well said my friend, I wish people would get out of their "religious" support for Modi, & see what he has done for the common man. A few new malls, some shiny buildings in Ahmedabad doesn't hide the fact that the common man is still suffering there.

It is not religious support at all. He was hated throughout India after the Gujarat riots.
He has charisma and has projected himself as a great leader. People love heroes and he is seen as one my many. But it just looks too staged to me. There is nothing wrong in giving him a chance. But not until he comes out clean in the riot cases.

 

[Rig Vedic]

How do you know it as a fact?

For one thing, Congress leader Haji Bilal is one of those who is sentenced to death for leading the mob that burned all those people in the train.

Furthermore, there were Congress leaders who were also in the rioting mobs:

Cong silent on cadres linked to Guj riots
Rajesh Ramachandran, TNN, Aug 9, 2003, 11.50pm IST

NEW DELHI: The Congress has been going to town over Best Bakery and other instances of the Narendra Modi government's complicity in the anti-Muslim violence which shook Gujarat last year.

But when it comes to the involvement of its own party cadre in the killings, 10 Janpath maintains a deafening silence. Even when confronted by a long-standing ally from the freedom movement days, the Jamiat Ulama-i-Hind.

According to the JUH, "most Congress corporators" and some Congress leaders of Gujarat had actively participated in last year's riots.

Mahmood As'ad Madani, JUH general secretary told The Times of India: "We wrote letters to Congress president Sonia Gandhi, gave a list of Congress leaders involved in the riots, asked her to take action against them but to no avail."

On April 29, 2002, for example, the JUH received a list of 25 Congress leaders from its Gujarat chapter, which was promptly forwarded to her. This included a former Congress minister, a sitting MLA and a former MP.

Then on August 20, Madani reminded Gandhi: "Similarly our appeal forwarded to you in respect of involvement of Congress MLAs, corporators and workers in Gujarat carnage along with the list of culpable names remains disregarded."

When contacted by TOI, Ambika Soni, in-charge of Gandhi's office, said she was not aware of the correspondence. Ahmed Patel, Gandhi's political secretary, to whom copies were marked by the JUH was not available for comment.

The JUH insists it had accurate information from the ground. For instance, its Gujarat branch had written to the police commissioner of Vadodara city on March 21 that, "After the Godhra incident an urgent meeting of the activists of the BJP, VHP, RSS and Bajrang Dal was held under the leadership of Yogesh Patel (MLA)... Chinnam Gandhi (Congress corporator)... They had alloted the activists their jobs, they made a plan and instructed the activists to carry out this work without any fear and told them that they would get full support of police officers."

The Gujarat JUH had mapped the Congress leadership even at the district level. Mehsana and Patan districts' list has 8 names of Congress leaders including local MP Atmaram Patel as having played a "negative role." A fax message sent on May 1 from Mehsana has this against Patel's coloumn: "Still has not come to help Muslims; taking sides in favour of a criminal person of Sardarpur and Ladoi village."

A list of 15 from Anand is headed by a secretary of Gujarat youth Congress. But to be fair to the Congress and the JUH, the report is all praise for the "positive role" played by Patan MP Pravin Rashtrapal.

JUH secretary N A Farooqui says: "The Congress has committed sins of omission and commission during the riots. Former MP Ehsan Jaffri had called up Sonia Gandhi for help. She didn't take a strong stand in her subsequent visit to Gujarat. The local bodies were mostly headed by the Congress which could have done a lot for relief and rehabilitation, but it was all left to the NGOs."

Though Farooqui maintains that the JUH "has not severed its relationship" with the Congress, the party's ambivalence has led to debates within the Muslim intelligentsia over which political formation is best placed to defend the country from the danger of communal division.

Cong silent on cadres linked to Guj riots - The Times of India

 

[toxic_pus]

Actually that is a wrong understanding on your part.

My contention is if BJP becomes communal by pandering to the majority, the Congress is equally communal as it panders to the minority because both Hinduism and Islam/Christianity are religions.

There is no point in saying pandering to one religion is better than pandering to others. That is hypocrisy.

I mean if a communal dumbshyt like Asaddudin Owaisi whose party thrives on whipping up communal frenzy among a section of the Hyderabad city can be termed 'secular' and he can go on National television given lectures on secularism, I wonder what has 'secularism' come to in India !!

Another example is PDP (Kerala) which is hailed as a secular front but whose members are convicted of serial bomb blasts in Coimbatore. Many parties like this may be in North also, but since I am from South I am giving examples from here.

Yet another is the case of Popular Front of India (yes the same radical outfit that severed the hand of one T.T.Joseph). They are still out there competing in Kerala elections and winning seats. I did not see any 'secular' media or parties make a hue or cry or decry them as communal other than some passing comments. Why ?? the all powerful 'Muslim' vote and the fear of antagonizing it.

It is this hypocrisy among a section of the media and the people calling one section as communal and conveniently praising the other as Secular that is disgusting.

Karthic, those are all valid points for a debate on Congress vs BJP. Unfortunately, this is not such a debate, at least not to me. We are criticizing NaMo, for what he is and for his failures. Congress is not a scale against which NaMo is to be measured.

Also another thing is the trial by media in the case of Modi. Let the courts convict him. Then they can hound for his blood. But before the court can do anything why try him in Kangaroo media courts ? And even if he was found guilty the most he could be charge with is Administrative lapses which in itself is not something new to India.

That Modi failed to come through as a CM at a time when he was expected to raise above party, politics and communalism, doesn't require a Court to confirm. The point is, if a person is in a position of power which enables him to influence positively an incidence, but fails to do so, whether deliberately or otherwise, and as a result of such lack of decisive action several hundred perish, he is guilty. There is enough reason to believe that NaMo could have stopped the carnage that followed the unfortunate events at Godhra. Whether there is sufficient evidence for the Court to convict him is a question of legal procedure, entirely different from the moral culpability of Modi.

Lets not trivialize his unforgivable lapses which directly resulted in deaths of hundreds of innocents, as mere 'administrative' lapses and lets not hide behind words like sub judice.

 

[toxic_pus]

Oh yeahh... guess what.. all the sins committed by the secular congress will be forgiven right away, becoz they are committed by the congress, the messiah of minorities, defending them from the clutches of the evil right wingers..

Everytime the word modi s mentioned anywhere on any thread, all of a sudden, the flag-bearers of secularity and angels off humanity spawning out of nowhere, and whoaaa...and all start crying from the rooftops..hey how can modi be a PM.. u forgot gujrat.. u forgot how he killed innocent minorities...
My god.
What a paranoid sick people.

-"Hey, how can you support BJP, dont u know its evil and communal..?"
-"so what..! Their evilness becomes pale before the evilness of congress, and BJP did nothing, that Congress never did/doing"
-"Whhhhaaaatt... how dare you criticize congress, u evil right wing fascist looney...... *heart attack*"
-"hahaha.... keep shitting in your pants.. congress is going to be doomed within next 3 years..""

That a person can be equally, objectively critical of both the parties, is a concept alien to you. When you meet such a person you just don't know how to handle them. Therefore it is necessary for you to put us, who are critical of NaMo, in the common mould of a known enemy i.e. the Congress, so you can articulate your grievances, real or imaginary, against that enemy. It is necessary for you to put us under the flag of your enemy, so that you can pull it down effortlessly. We understand that. No need to reconfirm that over and over again.

And yes, may be 3 years from now Congress will loose. That still wouldn't absolve NaMo from his failures.

 

[53fd]

It is not religious support at all. He was hated throughout India after the Gujarat riots.
He has charisma and has projected himself as a great leader. People love heroes and he is seen as one my many. But it just looks too staged to me. There is nothing wrong in giving him a chance. But not until he comes out clean in the riot cases.

I'm not saying religious as in Hindu support, I meant people support him 'religiously' (fervently); & I think he is a good corporate guy, but has done much to alleviate poverty in Gujarat & help the common man. I don't understand who those specific people are that are always talking about 'shining Gujarat'.

The number of jobless people in Swarnim Gujarat state has risen by 97,095 in the last two years according to a government agency. In other words, on an average the number of unemployed people has been rising by over 4,000 per month.

In 2007-08, there were 7, 92,033 jobless people in Gujarat but in 2008-09 this had increased to 8, 24,769. But according to the latest figures (for the 11-month period ended February 2010) available with the state's labour and employment department, the number of unemployed people in the state is now 8, 89,128.

The number of jobless people is now close to 9 lakh.

Gujarat has a high 31.8 per cent population living below poverty line, says a Planning Commission report. This is higher than several major states such as Jammu & Kashmir (13.2 per cent), Kerala (19.7 per cent), Punjab (20.9 per cent), Himachal Pradesh (22.9 per cent), Haryana (24.1 per cent), Tamil Nadu (28.9 per cent) and Andhra Pradesh (29.9 per cent).

Poverty line for Gujarat – monthly expenditure of Rs 501.58 per person in rural and Rs 659.18 in urban areas – is based on National Sample Survey (NSS) norms fixed in 2005-06, which includes ‘nutritional, educational and health outcomes’, to quote from the report.

Senior expert Prof Indira Hirway says, “High incidence of poverty in rural Gujarat shows that the recent boost in agricultural production has failed to benefit the poorest of the poor, particularly farm labourers.”

Media Scan Bangalore: Unemployment Rising In Vibrant Gujarat

So again, who are those Indians that are part of this shining Gujarat?

 

[angeldust]

12 yrs ago I first heard of Modi....even then I was amazed by his vision. Today, I am still not surprised that my opinion of this man has not changed. Not in the slightest. In fact, Modi is someone that every Indian regardless of religion has to acknowledge. He is a hindu and rightwing at that. Is that a bad thing? No not if you look at Modi and what it means to India. His religious affiliation and ring wing credentials actually make a very ideal candidate for India's security. If our enemies hate him, there is a reason why and its not for the anti communal tones....remember there is a bigger picture. I am Christian and I have no problems seeing a man like Modi run India properly and effectively. I believe he is the only candidate in India's history post independence who has shown the caliber required to lead our nation to great heights this century. People point out to the reforms and the Gujarati economy but while those indicators are important, I look at something more personal. He wants to see his country rise and be the best. He want to see India progress to high points. More importantly, he being a Hindu actually aids him in a quirky way. I compare it to black man complex in America. This is my personal thoughts so please don't judge me. I feel the average black person in the US really works hard to dispel the stereotypes that come into many ppl.'s minds. They are conscious of that and go thru extraordinary dedication and great length to prove these are misconceptions. Modi as a Hindu does the same in that he wants to prove all the falsehoods about India. He wants the world to see we are not backward and that we can all get along.


Plz if the BJP is smart, do not ever put Advani up for election. I will fast to death.....because unfortunately Advani does not have the worldly vision we so greatly need in order for India to leap ahead others.

Nice post. I believe Modi at the center will give 200% to prove a point to those within the nation as well as those without. He has the credibility, the track record, and the competence. He is young (in the Indian political sense of course). And he is Indian first and last, and will answer only to Indians. As PM we need someone like him to carve out and claim our rightful place on the world stage, instead of the almost apologetic indecisive weak kneed atithi devo bhava pehle aap BS we see emanating from MMS V2.0.

 

[thebrownguy]

Well said my friend, I wish people would get out of their "religious" support for Modi, & see what he has done for the common man. A few new malls, some shiny buildings in Ahmedabad doesn't hide the fact that the common man is still suffering there.

Please do some research before posting. Posting random nonsense, cant be called an argument. Modi has done much more in Gujrat than building some "Shiny Buildings". The common man in Gujrat is way happier compared to any other part of India.

 

[53fd]

Please do some research before posting. Posting random nonsense, cant be called an argument. Modi has done much more in Gujrat than building some "Shiny Buildings". The common man in Gujrat is way happier compared to any other part of India.

I suggest you read Post # 368 to answer your questions.

 

[thebrownguy]

I'm not saying religious as in Hindu support, I meant people support him 'religiously' (fervently); & I think he is a good corporate guy, but has done much to alleviate poverty in Gujarat & help the common man. I don't understand who those specific people are that are always talking about 'shining Gujarat'.



Media Scan Bangalore: Unemployment Rising In Vibrant Gujarat

So again, who are those Indians that are part of this shining Gujarat?

A very simplistic argument. Things are as simple as black or white. Even if we assume your link has credibility, it is not enough to dismiss the development in EVERY field achieved by Modi for Gujrat. Anyways, I can understand, that as a Muslim, you may not have a liking for Modi, for his alleged role in post Godhra riots. But when you are dismissing his ability as an administrator, I feel you are not being impartial in your judgement.

 

[angeldust]

It was congress who divide India and its neighbours. I can bet if BJP was before 1900 century there was no need of division.
Congress divide and rule.

A huge proportion of Indians agree with you, from an Indian standpoint. The Congress came back in power this time around not because they were the Congress, but riding piggy-back on the credentials of MMS. By reducing MMS to a titular head in more ways than one, the Congress has not only done the nation a disservice, it has done itself a greater disservice (the greater evil from a political standpoint).

 

[53fd]

A very simplistic argument. Things are as simple as black or white. Even if we assume your link has credibility, it is not enough to dismiss the development in EVERY field achieved by Modi for Gujrat. Anyways, I can understand, that as a Muslim, you may not have a liking for Modi, for his alleged role in post Godhra riots. But when you are dismissing his ability as an administrator, I feel you are not being impartial in your judgement.

Not really as a Muslim, but also as someone who lives in America & interacts with Gujarati students in college, & Gujarati people at my workplace (job). No one wants to go back to Gujarat despite America being in such a bad condition right now. The pharmacists tell me that even after their B-pharm in India, they can only make at max 10,000-15,000 Indian Rupees with their education there. These Gujarati students are willing to spend $80,000 for 2 years in Grad school to get a job in the US (despite its poor economic conditions) than go back to Gujarat, which also tells me a whole lot about the situation there.

 

[angeldust]

Not really as a Muslim, but also as someone who lives in America & interacts with Gujarati students in college, & Gujarati people at my workplace (job). No one wants to go back to Gujarat despite America being in such a bad condition right now. The pharmacists tell me that even after their B-pharm in India, they can only make at max 10,000-15,000 Indian Rupees with their education there. These Gujarati students are willing to spend $80,000 for 2 years in Grad school to get a job in the US (despite its poor economic conditions) than go back to Gujarat, which also tells me a whole lot about the situation there.

So? A simple B Pharm working at a drug store maybe. No one stops at a B Pharm though. Most go on to an M Pharm, followed by either a PhD or an MBA. And those guys earn way more in the Pharma/Biotech sector. But what exactly is your point? Some Gujjus wanting to stay in America makes Modi an over-hyped failure? By the way, forget B Pharms. Do you know what a full-fledged MBBS doctor would make on an average doing naukri in India if he were to stop there and not go on to his MD or DM at a minimum? Its the real face of competition in modern India my friend, and in a number of fields today, its actually easier getting (or buying) a degree in the US than trying to do so back home in India. If anything, it actually is a positive thing, as increasing reverse brain drain in the corporate sector here is testament to.

 

[53fd]

So? A simple B Pharm working at a drug store maybe. No one stops at a B Pharm though. Most go on to an M Pharm, followed by either a PhD or an MBA. And those guys earn way more in the Pharma/Biotech sector. But what exactly is your point? Some Gujjus wanting to stay in America makes Modi an over-hyped failure? By the way, forget B Pharms. Do you know what a full-fledged MBBS doctor would make on an average doing naukri in India if he were to stop there and not go on to his MD or DM at a minimum? Its the real face of competition in modern India my friend, and in a number of fields today, its actually easier getting (or buying) a degree in the US than trying to do so back home in India. If anything, it actually is a positive thing, as increasing reverse brain drain in the corporate sector here is testament to.

What I see is most Indians finding it difficult to make ends meet, while corporate elitists such as Modi (very few in number) exploiting the common people there to make themselves rich. I also think it's very telling that you have slums & run down places right next to mansions of rich people in Ahmedabad. Also, $80,000 is a lot of money my friend, people put their life investments on the line for this, & it takes years & years to pay it off, & there's no guarantee of that happening with the poor economic situation here.

 

[KS]

Karthic, those are all valid points for a debate on Congress vs BJP. Unfortunately, this is not such a debate, at least not to me. We are criticizing NaMo, for what he is and for his failures. Congress is not a scale against which NaMo is to be measured.

Fair enough !

My point being the obvious hypocrisy when Congress or the other so-called secular parties decry him as communal when they have a lot more blood on their hands.

That Modi failed to come through as a CM at a time when he was expected to raise above party, politics and communalism, doesn't require a Court to confirm. The point is, if a person is in a position of power which enables him to influence positively an incidence, but fails to do so, whether deliberately or otherwise, and as a result of such lack of decisive action several hundred perish, he is guilty. There is enough reason to believe that NaMo could have stopped the carnage that followed the unfortunate events at Godhra. Whether there is sufficient evidence for the Court to convict him is a question of legal procedure, entirely different from the moral culpability of Modi.

Lets not trivialize his unforgivable lapses which directly resulted in deaths of hundreds of innocents, as mere 'administrative' lapses and lets not hide behind words like sub judice.

That is where I would like to differ. I believe he did his best in controlling the situation within 3 days and checked the spread of riots to other places within Gujarat.

Given the gravity of the situation, the gruesome manner in which the Karsevaks were killed and Gujarat's own record at communal riots (before Modi) which go back centuries there is no way in hell he (or anyone) could have stopped the riots from happening.

There was simply too much emotion on the ground and too less trained personnel to control them.

And I am not trivializing any death - but juts saying they were not the first riots in Indian history nor was it the largest in terms of casualties.

If it is not too much to ask from you you can go through these links to see his actions taken to prevent the riots (just consolidation of various media reports) - Link and Link

 

[53fd]

Fair enough !

My point being the obvious hypocrisy when Congress or the other so-called secular parties decry him as communal when they have a lot more blood on their hands.



That is where I would like to differ. I believe he did his best in controlling the situation within 3 days and checked the spread of riots to other places within Gujarat.

Given the gravity of the situation, the gruesome manner in which the Karsevaks were killed and Gujarat's own record at communal riots (before Modi) which go back centuries there is no way in hell he (or anyone) could have stopped the riots from happening.

There was simply too much emotion on the ground and too less trained personnel to control them.

And I am not trivializing any death - but juts saying they were not the first riots in Indian history nor was it the largest in terms of casualties.

If it is not too much to ask from you you can go through these links to see his actions taken to prevent the riots (just consolidation of various media reports) - Link and Link

You are free to live in your delusion:

SIT report indicts Modi over 2002 Gujarat riots | TwoCircles.net

Here are a few of its key findings:

1. The report says, 'The chief minister had tried to water down the seriousness of the situation at Gulberg Society, Naroda Patiya and other places by saying that every action has an equal and opposite reaction.' (Page 69 of the report)

The enquiry officer also notes: 'His (Modi) implied justification of the killings of innocent members of the minority community read together with an absence of a strong condemnation of the violence that followed Godhra suggest a partisan stance at a critical juncture when the state had been badly disturbed by communal violence.' (Page 153) SIT chairman RK Raghvan further comments that Modi's statements were sweeping and offensive coming as it did from a chief minister, that too at a critical time when Hindu-Muslim tempers were running high.' (Page 13 of Chairman's comments)

2. The report says, in an extremely 'controversial' move Modi had placed two senior ministers-Ashok Bhatt and IK Jadeja, whose cell phone records showed that they were in touch with rioters-in the Ahmedabad city police control room and the Gujarat state police control room during the riots with 'no definite charter', fueling the speculation that they 'had been placed to interfere in police work and give wrongful decisions to the field officers.'

3. The report affirms that police officers who took a neutral stand during the riots and prevented massacres were transferred by the Gujarat government to insignificant postings in a highly 'questionable' manner (Pages 7-8 of Chairman's comments).

4. The report says 'The Gujarat government has reportedly destroyed the police wireless communication of the period pertaining to the riots.' It also adds, 'No records, documentations or minutes of the crucial law and order meetings held by the government during the riots had been preserved.' (Page 3)

5. The report says Modi displayed a 'discriminatory attitude by not visiting the riot-affected areas in Ahmedabad where a large number of Muslims were killed, though he went to Godhra on the same day, travelling almost 300 kms on a single day.' (Page 67)

6. In a highly unethical move, the report confirms that the government appointed VHP and RSS-affiliated advocates as public prosecutors in sensitive riot cases. The report states: 'It appears that the political affiliation of the advocates did weigh with the government for the appointment of public prosecutors.' (Page 77)

7. According to the report, the Gujarat government did not take any steps to stop the illegal bandh called by the Vishwa Hindu Parishad on 28.02.2002. On the contrary the BJP had also supported the bandh. (Page 69)

8. The SIT report also says that, in an inexplicable move, the police administration did not impose curfew in Naroda and Meghani Nagar (Ahmedabad city) until 12 and 2 pm respectively on 28.02.02. By then, the situation had severely deteriorated at both places.

9. The SIT discovered that the state police had carried out patently shoddy investigations in the Naroda Patia and Gulberg Society massacre cases and deliberately overlooked the cell phone records of sangh parivar members and BJP leaders involved in the riots.

10. The SIT has also found evidence against the then minister of state for home Gordhan Zadafia (who was reporting directly to Modi) and tops cops like MK Tandon and PB Gondia for his complicity in the riots. (Page 168, 169)

These are from February & March 2011. This is the Supreme Court appointed Special Investigations Team (SIT), not some deluded news reports. Modi has been indicted by the SIT through law.