why pakfa trumps rafale heavily............

[he-man]

its hightime IAF should dum purchase of Rafale and of those 18 billion$s by 8 Billion$s worth LCAs +wepons & invest remaining 10 Billion $s for FGFA+wepons

i dont think even china will dare breach indian air space after that

Point defence =LCA @ 40 Million(200 for 8 billion $s) for Plane + wepons, ASEA radar & GE414 engine +israeli wepons

Air supremecy =FGFA @ 100 Million(100 for 10 billion$s)for plane & wepons extra

272 SU 30 MKI/super sukois for Air defence & bombing missions

MIG29 Upgrds X 60 for second line air defence & multi role

M2k Ugrds X 60 for multi role & bombing missions

150 Jags Ugrds for CAS & bombing roles

why then waste money on rafale

problem is uncertainty of tejas

we should have sped the project and spent more money on it i think

 

[[Bregs]]

pakfa is gonna be produced in another 3 years max with stage 1 engine

rafale will start delivery in mid 2017 at best

u do the math

show me link bro where you feel India will get PAK FA in 3 years ? there has not been an formal agreement on this except on designing stage. India will get last prototype of pak fa not before 2019 and after which changes or evolution will be made to start mass production

 

[Jon Snow]

Another factor you are not consedering is that we are not paying $18 billion just for the Rafale but we are also getting enormous ToT - all of which will be incredibly useful in developing and upgrading LCA mk2, mk3 and AMCA.

 

[he-man]

You are only considering the cost of induction - where they are similar. Russians make incredibly low priced planes compared to the west but they require much more maintenance - this is one of the reasons the IAF is shifting towards western machines.
Also 1 is 4.5 gen and the other is 5th gen. If you want to know how much maintenance a 5th gen plane needs - look at the F-22. 1 Hour flying means 30+ hours of maintenance and $30k.

those times are behind us

both stage 1 and 2 engines of pakfa are brand new ones unlike useless and old al-31f of mki

they will have life of 4000 hours and 6000 hours respectively compared to like 1500-2000 for al-31 f

Another factor you are not consedering is that we are not paying $18 billion just for the Rafale but we are also getting enormous ToT - all of which will be incredibly useful in developing and upgrading LCA mk2, mk3 and AMCA.

u seem to be new here

we are getting no tot to develop our own stuff

only for licence production of rafale in india

ask any senior member,,,,,we will get no tot for radar,engine,spectra

show me link bro where you feel India will get PAK FA in 3 years ? there has not been an formal agreement on this except on designing stage. India will get last prototype of pak fa not before 2019 and after which changes or evolution will be made to start mass production

yaar i am saying we get pakfa with stage 1 engine only as its pretty good itself

we are actually waiting for stage 2 engine,due in 2020.............which i think is a mistake

apart from stage 2 engine pakfa will start production in 3 years max after 7 th prototype which will have final configuration

 

[GURU DUTT]

Another factor you are not consedering is that we are not paying $18 billion just for the Rafale but we are also getting enormous ToT - all of which will be incredibly useful in developing and upgrading LCA mk2, mk3 and AMCA.

wrong very wrong we arent getting any **** as TOT or whatever wet dreams IAF or HAL might have f4rench will never give there trade secrets for one big order if they give they will charge more than double for it ..period and for that ammount we can have 3-4 fully loaded LCAs with 3d GEN ASEA, GE414 engine & mix of latest israeli pods & wepon systems

 

[he-man]

@Jon Snow

man just read the article and see what we are getting in pakfa vs rafale

 

[[Bregs]]

those times are behind us

both stage 1 and 2 engines of pakfa are brand new ones unlike useless and old al-31f of mki

they will have life of 4000 hours and 6000 hours respectively compared to like 1500-2000 for al-31 f



u seem to be new here

we are getting no tot to develop our own stuff

only for licence production of rafale in india

ask any senior member,,,,,we will get no tot for radar,engine,spectra



yaar i am saying we get pakfa with stage 1 engine only as its pretty good itself

we are actually waiting for stage 2 engine,due in 2020.............which i think is a mistake

apart from stage 2 engine pakfa will start production in 3 years max after 7 th prototype which will have final configuration

arey bro the Russian model of any fighter has never suited IAF, its been other way around though

 

[he-man]

arey bro the Russian model of any fighter has never suited IAF, its been other way around though

this will have atleast 15-20 percent indian contribution and we are funding 50 percent of it

and dude just see the specs of this beast

5 or 6 radars with all sorts of sensors..............powerful engine

its gonna rock

 

[Jon Snow]

those times are behind us

both stage 1 and 2 engines of pakfa are brand new ones unlike useless and old al-31f of mki

they will have life of 4000 hours and 6000 hours respectively compared to like 1500-2000 for al-31 f

All of which means their maintenance will be the same as western counterparts - meaning 30+hours of maintenance and $30,000 for every 1 hour of flight. That is if you believe the Russians - they do have a tendency to lie when it suits them.

u seem to be new here

we are getting no tot to develop our own stuff

only for licence production of rafale in india

ask any senior member,,,,,we will get no tot for radar,engine,spectra

I've been a member of this forum for 3 years - just because I dont post much doesn't mean I'm new to the field.

As for the ToT issue - obviously I didnt mean we could copy and paste western tech into the LCA. The enormous manufacturing base which will be created for the Rafale will be extremely useful. Take the case of radars - if we have the capability to mass produce advanced AESA radars(and their T/R modules) at home thanks to the French giving us that tech, its another thing we wont have to build from scratch when the LCA AESA comes along.

 

[he-man]

no one will admit and ppl will make all sort of excuses but fact remains


indian planning sucks

All of which means their maintenance will be the same as western counterparts - meaning 30+hours of maintenance and $30,000 for every 1 hour of flight. That is if you believe the Russians - they do have a tendency to lie when it suits them.



I've been a member of this forum for 3 years - just because I dont post much doesn't mean I'm new to the field.

As for the ToT issue - obviously I didnt mean we could copy and paste western tech into the LCA. The enormous manufacturing base which will be created for the Rafale will be extremely useful. Take the case of radars - if we have the capability to mass produce advanced AESA radars(and their T/R modules) at home thanks to the French giving us that tech, its another thing we wont have to build from scratch when the LCA AESA comes along.

they are not gonna give us ****

only codes for the aesa radar to configure it to our priorities

ask any one here

another point is after investing huge money in rafale and pakfa we will have nothing left for lca,amca,aura

did we get tot in mki deal??

did we get tot in t-90 tank deal??

did we get tot in submarine deals??

there is nothing called tot.....its only assembling the stuff locally after kits of critical technologies are imported for oem

 

[Dillinger]

Now before ppl start shouting that rafale and pakfa have diff roles

pls read about the side facing radars-----------they are specifically for ground mapping and attack!!

so whats the need of rafale if i ask again??especially when it is established that delivery will start only in mid 2017 after deal is signed in mid 2014??

One more piece of info for u guys

Pakfa's final shaping will come in form of t-50 7

Right now t-50 5 is being built,,,,then t-50 6 will be built and it will be a static model only for testing and modification of stealth shaping

One- Detection, tracking and targeting are not the same. While the L-band array may provide detection, target designation cannot be provided by the same array and for ground attacks an EO pod will still be required. Had you known the characteristics and attributes of L-band application and the role that L-band sensors play the world over (hint- the RAN-40L is not a FCR but an AVSR) then this would have been clear to you. At the end of the day you envisage the IAF operating a large number of heavy platforms and using them for operations which do not require said platforms in the first place, that too after compromising their LO attributes through the addition of an EO pod in an un-sanitized environment. The FGFA will obviously be employed in SEAD and other ops but not in the manner that you envision.

Two- The different prototypes being developed has nothing to do with the topic at hand. No where does the quoted article mention that any significant VLO solutions will be employed in the form of structural modifications. All that the article states is the T-50-06 will be the prototype that might end up being sent to India for user evaluation.

 

[GURU DUTT]

no nation will ever part with its trade secrets which they obtained with sheer hard work and R&D for almost a century..period

there is no such thing as Full tot all it means is local assembly and that applies to french , russinas, americans & even israelies(in name of so called TOT look what russians did to us with T 90 tanks & what ferench did to us with scorpenes) better to go for off the shelf latest tech with full over haul facility in house while working hard on R&D + reverse ingenearing

ussian harware is getting better and more reliable and soon when stage B engines arrive FGFA/PAKFA will beneifit from that aswell not to mention tremendous progress made in radar , counter measures and EW dept. & russian wepons are way better than most think of them its better for IAF to go for 250 LCA + 250 FGFA (150 single seat & 100 double seat) navy should go for 50 naval version of FGFA & 100 LCA Naval version...there will be nothing that can beat this combo in owr north eastern & western sector

 

[senkakudefender]

Fifth Generation technology does not grow on trees! FGFA actual 176 KN Mach 1.5 supercruise engine will be completed in 2015, installed on production model by 2019. Produced 2021 - 2022. We end up with 144 by 2029 and Russians 60 - 100. Add to the fact Russians know rubbish about composites and still stubbornly use titanium, Mach 2.35 top speed is for simulators, in real life you will burn through engine life if you do so. EW equipment of Russians is good but our experience is greater (Blend of French - Israeli - Indian). That's why these bastards are pussyfooting on deal, we don't want to export this. They want to.

Rafafle has SPECTRA EW suite that can track a fighter 400km away based on radar signature only. Situational awareness will mean life and death in future when missiles will do 100G and Human body can sustain only 7 - 8G. Russians need time. That is why IAF wants MMRCA. We can't match Chinese number for number , but a comfortable 1 : 3 ratio and technological superiority is our best hope. Solid deterrent and defensive capability.

Even F 35 can do 1.1 TWR if you load 2500 pounds ( 2 AIM 9X INTERNAL , 2 AIM 120D INTERNAL, 2 AIM 120 EXTERNAL, 2 AIM 9X EXTERNAL) and 7500 pound fuel on 29000 pound empty weight for 43000lb thrust F135. New engine of 50000lb (tested) will give it 1.19 TWR for 42000lb. Flight control System allows it to do J turn , Helicopter / Pancake maneuver, Backflip, Relaxed Yaw stability, Pugachev.

Main thing it depends on is survivability in EW mode. It can make planes go rogue and fire on own teammates. Ultimately pilots will retire and X 47B like planes will wage wars.

 

[Dillinger]

we should have got something cheaper as 4.5 gen aircraft and just upgraded the sensors




we should have got something cheaper as 4.5 gen aircraft and just upgraded the sensors

now the biggest loser will be tejas as funds will be definitely short
and its safe to forget aura and amca alltogether
@Dillinger

i told u rafale deal was gonna be delayed

now they are saying march 2014

Which is a delay how, you do understand the concept of current fiscal year, previous year and assessment year, yes?

 

[he-man]

One- Detection, tracking and targeting are not the same. While the L-band array may provide detection, target designation cannot be provided by the same array and for ground attacks an EO pod will still be required. Had you known the characteristics and attributes of L-band application and the role that L-band sensors play the world over (hint- the RAN-40L is not a FCR but an AVSR) then this would have been clear to you. At the end of the day you envisage the IAF operating a large number of heavy platforms and using them for operations which do not require said platforms in the first place, that too after compromising their LO attributes through the addition of an EO pod in an un-sanitized environment. The FGFA will obviously be employed in SEAD and other ops but not in the manner that you envision.

Two- The different prototypes being developed has nothing to do with the topic at hand. No where does the quoted article mention that any significant VLO solutions will be employed in the form of structural modifications. All that the article states is the T-50-06 will be the prototype that might end up being sent to India for user evaluation.

i am touching larger issues here

point is our foolish planning of trying to induct rafale and pakfa at same time

either u agree with me or not.pls specify

The point in article is wrong regarding t-50 6 as in russian forums reliable sources say that t-50 6 will be a static model for stealth testing only and t-50 7 will be final version

Regarding l band,,,the point is pakfa has a main huge aesa,,,,2 side looking dedicated aesas for ground attack and l band for unknown reason for the time being.The point i am making is that it pakks or will pack way more punch than what a rafale can ever do

Which is a delay how, you do understand the concept of current fiscal year, previous year and assessment year, yes?

pls don't try to show urself as the only educated person here

fiscal year ir a vague term

we are talking about months here and i am unhappy about the speed of signing the contract

am i wrong to assume that delivery will start in mid 2017??

if no then should we be happy??