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Why didn't the Chinese people overthrow Mao's government during the Great Famine of 1959–1961? Many

You missed Tai's point, which was that there is little to no evidence of the great famine and he pretty much set the standard at photographic evidence. By that standard, since we have no photographic evidence of dinosaurs, that mean dinosaurs never existed. I have no photographic evidence of my great grandparents, that mean they never existed.

The denial of the great famine by the Chinese members here are amazing. The mental gymnastics for the same is no less astounding.

It is, but not all of them deny great famine. Though many are reluctant to assign total blame to Mao, which is understandable since he is an icon, and he stands for uniting the country.

Also, Chinese are not the only one who try to either fudge, or obscure, or outright deny data.
Americans are rather famous for their notions on evolution, or climate change for instance. So yes, even here, "mental gymnastics for the same is no less astounding."

You missed Tai's point, which was that there is little to no evidence of the great famine and he pretty much set the standard at photographic evidence. By that standard, since we have no photographic evidence of dinosaurs, that mean dinosaurs never existed. I have no photographic evidence of my great grandparents, that mean they never existed.

The denial of the great famine by the Chinese members here are amazing. The mental gymnastics for the same is no less astounding.

Also, he is an exception here, as most of the members in this rather hawkish setting are also accepting of the death and the event per se, but probably don't lay all the blame on Mao, or may differ on certain things from the western portrayal of those.
 
I don't get it, Indians, Pakistanis, Americans.. everyone has a go at their leaders for their mistakes and incompetence, but not the Chinese... they warmly love chairman Mao despite him being responsible for millions dying due to his incompetence.

I admire the Chinese for how well they've done but the brainwashing is still strong with them when it comes to Mao.
 
Brain washed...

Communism and religion Wash the brains...
 
I don't get it, Indians, Pakistanis, Americans.. everyone has a go at their leaders for their mistakes and incompetence, but not the Chinese... they warmly love chairman Mao despite him being responsible for millions dying due to his incompetence.

I admire the Chinese for how well they've done but the brainwashing is still strong with them when it comes to Mao.

Umm... Not necessarily. There are many people who are quite critical of Mao in China. It is just that the CCP is primarily risk averse, and hence doesn't want to open a can of unknown greesly stuff.

Also, Chinese, not here but in general, are one of the very open minded individuals primarily because they lack any ideology.
Ideology or Religion makes a person blind to one viewpoint, and his head can't leave that small black box. Chinese neither have any strong tendency to religion, nor political system, nor economic system. It is very good when one speaks to a rational, neutral Chinese.

As a family, we suffer together and we enjoy the prosperity together like yesterday, today, and tomorrow. When you understand this Chinese mindset, you will understand why.

I appreciate this mindset, yet the family must know and openly discuss what happened within the house, so that their can be effective remedy.
 
It is, but not all of them deny great famine. Though many are reluctant to assign total blame to Mao, which is understandable since he is an icon, and he stands for uniting the country.
If it is not total blame, then how much and why that degree ?

Also, Chinese are not the only one who try to either fudge, or obscure, or outright deny data.
Americans are rather famous for their notions on evolution, or climate change for instance. So yes, even here, "mental gymnastics for the same is no less astounding."
Neither evolution denial nor climate change denial ever killed anyone.
 
Umm... Not necessarily. There are many people who are quite critical of Mao in China. It is just that the CCP is primarily risk averse, and hence doesn't want to open a can of unknown greesly stuff.

Also, Chinese, not here but in general, are one of the very open minded individuals primarily because they lack any ideology.
Ideology or Religion makes a person blind to one viewpoint, and his head can't leave that small black box. Chinese neither have any strong tendency to religion, nor political system, nor economic system. It is very good when one speaks to a rational, neutral Chinese.



I appreciate this mindset, yet the family must know and openly discuss what happened within the house, so that their can be effective remedy.
so authoritarian/commie regimes spawn free thinkers ? o_O

what I like about their system is it's almost brutal efficiency.
 
so authoritarian/commie regimes spawn free thinkers ? o_O

what I like about their system is it's almost brutal efficiency.

Their system is no "commie/authoritarian" exactly. It has elements of it, yet it is still different.
China sends millions of kids to study abroad every year. 32% of international students in US are Chinese, yet around 80% of them return immediately, and no one changes much of their thought. Rather, it is found that many people who come back, are further disillusioned with western democracies, because while in China they have never seen the very real problems and struggles of normal people in west, and only glare at its successes, and in those countries themselves they are able to further analyse things.

Stupid idiots are everywhere, I can count you hundreds who live on the myth of "Akhand Bharat", some of which goes all the way from Iran, to Indonesia!

so authoritarian/commie regimes spawn free thinkers ? o_O

what I like about their system is it's almost brutal efficiency.

As for brutal efficiency, you will be surprised to know that China has better systems of compensation for people who are dispossessed of their land. Far better than India.
 
I appreciate this mindset, yet the family must know and openly discuss what happened within the house, so that their can be effective remedy.
I wasn't born in those era but I completely understand why my uncle and ancestor people do what they did. We just came out of a civil war. Everything was destroyed by the Japanese. We didn't receive a single penny on war reparation. The West was looking down on us. We were backward people with nothing left valuable. Mao had to make a radical decision to modernize China quick and I meant QUICK. And the people stand behind him. His policies failed but it is a choice the people chose to accept as there is no alternative but to be radical. Anyhow, the important thing is the CCP recognized the mistake and corrected it. The Gang of Four got persecuted and executed. Sure, Mao was responsible but I doubt he is behind every decision. The Gang of Four hijacked the policies and we executed them for their crime. So there is no need to feel grudge over a wrong decision that we chose. The most important thing is to look ahead and not cry over the past.
 
If it is not total blame, then how much and why that degree ?


Neither evolution denial nor climate change denial ever killed anyone.

I am not assigning blame, I am just telling you what those Chinese think. According to me, Mao does have some substantial blame on his part.

Also, for your second point, some people would like to disagree with you. But my point was to display that it is not uniquely Chinese phenomenon to chose or fudge data to fit their own pre-conceived ideology.

I wasn't born in those era but I completely understand why my uncle and ancestor people do what they did. We just came out of a civil war. Everything was destroyed by the Japanese. We didn't receive a single penny on war reparation. The West was looking down on us. We were backward people with nothing left valuable. Mao had to make a radical decision to modernize China quick and I meant QUICK. And the people stand behind him. His policies failed but it is a choice the people chose to accept as there is no alternative but to be radical. Anyhow, the important thing is the CCP recognized the mistake and corrected it. The Gang of Four got persecuted and executed. Sure, Mao was responsible but I doubt he is behind every decision. The Gang of Four hijacked the policies and we executed them for their crime. So there is no need to feel grudge over a wrong decision that we chose. The most important thing is to look ahead and not cry over the past.

Absolutely. My only point was to have the ability to discuss within the house. You after all still want a minimum level of scrutiny over CCP don't you? Or else they will run away with whatever they do.

And anyways, Mao was the lead of the Cultural Revolution, a thing that can't be denied. I'm not judging him, because as you mentioned, it is the matter within the family, within your family. I'm just stating a fact, that 99% of responsibility of Cultural Revolution lies with Mao. His wife, had this to say when she was on trial, "I was Mao's dog. I barked when he said me to bark, I bit when he said me to bit." Not only this, she committed suicide after her sentence. And Mao was anyways not a person who could have been dominated or fooled by anyone.
 
Their system is no "commie/authoritarian" exactly. It has elements of it, yet it is still different.
China sends millions of kids to study abroad every year. 32% of international students in US are Chinese, yet around 80% of them return immediately, and no one changes much of their thought. Rather, it is found that many people who come back, are further disillusioned with western democracies, because while in China they have never seen the very real problems and struggles of normal people in west, and only glare at its successes, and in those countries themselves they are able to further analyse things.

Stupid idiots are everywhere, I can count you hundreds who live on the myth of "Akhand Bharat", some of which goes all the way from Iran, to Indonesia!
I read that it's not easy and they have trouble relocating within the country, their freedoms are restricted, also the 1 child policy, execution/organ harvesting vans, suicide nets around apple factories, forced abortions, internet censorship, rural poverty (which they hide quite well from the rest of the world), ghost towns...

so come one, man.. while they are a driven people with a good work ethic and culture that has allowed them to do exceptionally well for themselves, it's not like they don't have their share of problems.

lol akhand bharat
banana8.gif


As for brutal efficiency, you will be surprised to know that China has better systems of compensation for people who are dispossessed of their land. Far better than India.
sure, most of the world is far better than India lol
 
Your denial of the millions of Chinese deaths from famine caused by Mao's economic incompetence would be the equivalent of Americans denying slavery ever existed in the US.

American slavery was documented in photographic evidence, artifacts and people who were direct descendents of slaves.

The great leap forward exists only in statistics. There's no physical evidence. It was a condition similar to any other economic depression where fertility dropped and the population didn't increase as fast as expected.

The great leap forward existed as a misguided economic policy in a developing country, that led to a major economic depression. this coincided with natural disasters, such that people suffered malnutrition and decreased life expectancy because of it. However, this does not mean that people died en-masse, and there is indeed no evidence to support the idea that ppl just dropped dead. How hard is this to understand?
 
I understand the circumstances, and perhaps that played in his decisions.

Also, I don't buy that it was not him directing policy. Mao was very much involved in policy, and if you read all accounts he was very enthusiastic in setting up communes etc. Deng Xiaoping, who I regard as the greatest Chinese leader, a true nationalist, was persecuted endlessly by Mao for standing up to his decisions.

Rather, after the disaster of his Great Leap Forward, Mao started getting sidelined in his own party, which is the reason he sidestepped his own party in starting the Cultural Revolution, which eventually led to the persecution of all kinds of people, including Deng Xiaoping, Xi Jingping and his father.

Cultural Revolution destroyed schools and colleges, stopped all education, and was perhaps the worst decision of the 20th century.

The appearance of communal farming is a natural step in an environment where the tools of production is limited. In these types of environment, the lands is concentrated under large entities to ensure there adequate material of production. Communal style of farming has appeared and disappeared throughout history, from ancient farmer where metal tools and beast of burden to limit to modern day farming companies where genetically treated seed and industrial automation allow the efficiency of farming under a large entity to exceed individual farming. There are also other factors at work. For example, when PRC is first founded, the land distribution followed individual farming from the land reform movements, however, a few years later, it is discovered that since farmers naturally have different skills between individual, land again begin to pass from less skillful farmer to more skillful one. While this is perfect fine in a country like modern day China or US and even encouraged somewhat, in early 1950s, such a trend would leave the less skilled farm with no possible venue of employment. It is literally a matter of life and death. Hence why communal farm is implemented to ensure that even the less skilled (and let's face it, lazy ones as well) farmer would survive. It has its problems, particularly with efficiency which is why it is abandon in 1970s, but in 1950s is very appropriate because inefficiency is preferable to death.

I do agree that culture revolution is a rather poorly executed. The original idea does have merit, but it run out of control which lead to disastrous results. I wouldn't actually call it worst decision of the 20th century by any stretch of imagination though. Considering 20th century has two world wars, a cold war, multiple brushes of total nuclear annihilation. Not to the mention all the regional wars, financial disasters which destroyed infrastructure of multiple nations and other events with world shaking results such as dissolution of USSR.

I wouldn't agree here with you my friend. Mao, due to his unique circumstances actually hated traditional Chinese life, and was actually very much sold on to Communist beliefs of tradition as bourgeois.

Why, my dear friend, else would Mao embark on his biggest sin, and something no Chinese can ever forget- The very destruction of his Civilization? Cultural Revolution. How many traditional relics were broken at that time? Confucius and his wise teachings, which were the base for thousands of years of Chinese states, was proclaimed as bourgeois and his teachings banished. Forbidden City would have been destroyed if not for the intervention of Zhou Enlai.

I wouldn't consider it a destruction of Chinese civilization. Funny thing you should mention it though, this aspect actually has a lot to do with one of the fundamental difference between Chinese civilization and, well, pretty much every other civilization in the world. The difference I speak of is the deeply ingrained atheism in Chinese culture.

For people less familiar with Chinese culture, they would like to believe that ancient Chinese are just as religious as everyone else because the long existence of Taosim and Buddhism in China. Some people also mistakenly believe Confucianism as a religion. Nothing can be farther from the truth.

Now, when talking about atheism, people may believe it means denial of the existence of god. That is not entirely accurate, because specific denials work just like affirmation of something's existence. Chinese atheism manifest in a lack of belief in something greater than the present world. This can be observed from Chinese mythology where gods and celestials are organized in a bureaucracy with strict rules for misconduct on god's part. In other worlds, gods in Chinese mythology is like government of another land instead objects of worship. The formation of such a trend is complex. In my personal opinion, it has to do with the long period of stability in Chinese dynasty as well as a highly developed absolute monarchy well ahead everyone else. Religion typically flourish in time of great need, because people naturally need support from somewhere, if they can't get it from the government, then they will turn to gods. Since a long, stable, powerful government can prove tangible aid over much longer period of time, the Chinese culture grow used to the help of fellow mortals than gods. Even today, when disaster happens a Chinese would first wonder if they can get help from police and government before thinking about god.

How is this related to our topic? Well, ingrained atheism in Chinese culture means it can freely changes in pretty much all its aspect with few restrictions. Chinese culture only concerns if the change is useful and even long traditions are rather easily abandon if it no longer proves to be useful. This is why Chinese culture has managed to absorb so many cultures in the past and this is why Chinese culture shift rather quickly in the recent times.

Culture revolution is such a change in Chinese culture. Its failure mainly lay in the fact during the time period, social stability is disrupted and the instability negatively impacted the development of nation. The fact it changed whatever traditions is a rather minor issue as far as Chinese culture is concerned.
 
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Oh, that explains alot.
Just questioned that picture because the person at the gunpoint looks more like a kid.

These indian trolls are desperate to make a point @ defaming the rule of CCP
Who is going to allow photos to be taken like that on the site of execution?

These are plenty of similar ones in movies like this comedy from a HK production or the photos were mocked up to fulfil that purpose

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images

Chinese Horticulture - Penzai
 
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Umm... Not necessarily. There are many people who are quite critical of Mao in China. It is just that the CCP is primarily risk averse, and hence doesn't want to open a can of unknown greesly stuff.

Also, Chinese, not here but in general, are one of the very open minded individuals primarily because they lack any ideology.
Ideology or Religion makes a person blind to one viewpoint, and his head can't leave that small black box. Chinese neither have any strong tendency to religion, nor political system, nor economic system. It is very good when one speaks to a rational, neutral Chinese.



I appreciate this mindset, yet the family must know and openly discuss what happened within the house, so that their can be effective remedy.

Actually I am close to 100% agree with you on this, for awhile I haven't found anyone I could agree with on this forum from either side, but your posts actually has a lot of points we could engage in debating, maybe it is time for me to become active again.

If it is not total blame, then how much and why that degree ?


Neither evolution denial nor climate change denial ever killed anyone.
Liu Shaoqi who was the President of P.R.China at that time had said that the three years disaster was 70% due to human error and the rest was due to natural disaster. However piling all the human error on just Mao alone was totally unfair to him also. The majority of those Human errors had to be consided with the cultural/political environment back then. Local officials purposely greatly exaggerating crops yields and when famine happened they also failed to report to the central government were the main causes of death from that famine.
 
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