Why A Medium / Heavy Strike Aircraft For Defense of Pakistan?

[Khafee]

Actually I already established that in post #288. But... oh well...

https://defence.pk/threads/why-a-me...fense-of-pakistan.470260/page-20#post-9075863

Well since you had already established that why were you going on beating a dead horse?

 

[CriticalThought]

Well since you had already established that why were you going on beating a dead horse?

Because people don't read, or if they read they don't comprehend, or if they comprehend they feign ignorance to forward their own agenda, so had to re-explain the same thing to another member, and another, and...

 

[The SC]

Worth noting that the FC-31 will have a payload of 8,000 kg, with 2,000 kg internal. Here's to hoping that its combat radius of 1,200 km sticks at 3,000-4,000 kg, at least.

Agreed, since that is the most practical and realistic option for Pakistan from every point of view, be it payload, combat radius or - and most importantly- Stealth..

 

[araz]

Just out of curiosity what happens when you say Aoozbillah..................?

Basic arabic. Aooz(o)billah(he) fayel and mafoul respectively. (O) signifies I being the person seeking the action being done. (He) signifies the person from whom the action is being expected.
Modern day arabic as I learn from the Mrs. has done away with grammer which is why Arabs often say "Hamdo Lillah". Linguistically the statement is correct however grammatically not so. For anything to do with Allah and His book ideally we should stick to the grammatically correct verse.
Hope I have explained myself appropriately and Allah knows best.
A

 

[Khafee]

Basic arabic. Aooz(o)billah(he) fayel and mafoul respectively. (O) signifies I being the person seeking the action being done. (He) signifies the person from whom the action is being expected.
Modern day arabic as I learn from the Mrs. has done away with grammer which is why Arabs often say "Hamdo Lillah". Linguistically the statement is correct however grammatically not so. For anything to do with Allah and His book ideally we should stick to the grammatically correct verse.
Hope I have explained myself appropriately and Allah knows best.
A

Salam, You explained your self very well.

1) What you are referring to depends on the dialect. We still say "Allhumdullilah"

2) The person I quoted - I wanted to know, how does a shaitan feel saying it

Best Regards

 

[araz]

The problem I have had with this train of thought is major considerations have been neglected.
Your budget is puny which is why you are relying on single engined fighter of the legacy era for defence still.
Bombers need escort which will have to be twin engined for their loitering time and distance they need to travel.
For any aggressive posturing in the land of the enemey to be efdective you will need 3:1 inventory as your losses are going to be higher. Good luck getting that.
You have developed a whole range of missiles and CMs only to leave them sitting around and risk man and expensive machines on a risky mission. Great thinking!
Lastly I think this whole debate is a zero sum game. Assume the enemy has fired a few missiles at you. Are you going to wait and find out whether they are nuke tipped or not before you respond or do they write you a letter/ send you a kissogram saying we will be using nukes from tomorrow. Inany case can you imagine a run of the mill Bharti girl coming to give you a kiss. Arggghhhhhhh!!!!!!!!. I would take the Nuke anyday.
A

Salam, You explained your self very well.

1) What you are referring to depends on the dialect. We still say "Allhumdullilah"

2) The person I quoted - I wanted to know, how does a shaitan feel saying it

Best Regards

Read the Quran. Did the Shaitan not say and quoted from the Quran" I see what you do not see. I fear Allah The lord of all the worlds"
A

 

[Khafee]

The problem I have had with this train of thought is major considerations have been neglected.
Your budget is puny which is why you are relying on single engined fighter of the legacy era for defence still.
Bombers need escort which will have to be twin engined for their loitering time and distance they need to travel.
For any aggressive posturing in the land of the enemey to be efdective you will need 3:1 inventory as your losses are going to be higher. Good luck getting that.
You have developed a whole range of missiles and CMs only to leave them sitting around and risk man and expensive machines on a risky mission. Great thinking!
Lastly I think this whole debate is a zero sum game. Assume the enemy has fired a few missiles at you. Are you going to wait and find out whether they are nuke tipped or not before you respond or do they write you a letter/ send you a kissogram saying we will be using nukes from tomorrow. Inany case can you imagine a run of the mill Bharti girl coming to give you a kiss. Arggghhhhhhh!!!!!!!!. I would take the Nuke anyday.
A

Sir, Technically realistic matters are outside the realm of this thread. Even the thread starter has waved the white flag and moved on. So kindly sit back, relax, enjoy a nice warm tea/ coffee, and enjoy the show.

Read the Quran. Did the Shaitan not say and quoted from the Quran" I see what you do not see. I fear Allah The lord of all the worlds"
A

"Sense of humor" - know what it means?

 

[CriticalThought]

The problem I have had with this train of thought is major considerations have been neglected.
Your budget is puny which is why you are relying on single engined fighter of the legacy era for defence still.

Use existing C-130s in a slightly different role. Develop/acquire drones with more payload capacity and longer range. For the creative mind any number of workarounds exist.

This is how I analyse situations. Forget about constraints and go all out to find the optimized solution. Now start adding constraints one by one and see how the solutions changes. One benefit of this approach is that it forces you to prioritize between constraints. It also gives you a sense of the marginal loss of optimality incurred due to each constraint. It can change you whole perception of the constraint and force you to try and remove it.

Bombers need escort which will have to be twin engined for their loitering time and distance they need to travel.

Not against weak enemies such as Afghan Army, and also NOT in a radar avoidance mode where the longer range means you can take a very roundabout way to get close to the enemy. Pair this with standoff range weapons and you have a viable solution.

For any aggressive posturing in the land of the enemey to be efdective you will need 3:1 inventory as your losses are going to be higher. Good luck getting that.

Unit cost of brand new C-130: C-130E, $11.9, C-130H, $30.1, C-130J, $48.5 (FY 1998 constant dollars in millions)
http://www.af.mil/AboutUs/FactSheets/Display/tabid/224/Article/104517/c-130-hercules.aspx

Again, where there is a will, there is a way.

You have developed a whole range of missiles and CMs only to leave them sitting around and risk man and expensive machines on a risky mission. Great thinking!

Forget about winning wars if you don't have an appetite for risk. Calculated risks MUST be taken during war because usually the enemy least expects such an attack. It makes you unpredictable and forces the enemy to plan for the unknown, increasing the cost of war for him.

Are you telling me your war planning is centred around Indian missile strikes?

 

[imadul]

Dude please read my post. I actually spent some time formulating my thoughts, it would be nice if you read them . An air launched Babur would have a theoretical range in excess of 1000km which is far more than the S400. H-6K can carry 6 Babur (probably more if arranged in similar configuration to how B-52 carries ALCM). H-6K can attack S400 from over 1000km away with up to 6 ALCM varients of Babur.

S400 is mobile, Sir. Goe coordinates have to be pre fed, batteries will be moving also and it can shoot LACM too. Pak will be using SOW to target fixed installations. Exremely difficult to hit mobile targets via missile.

 

[Tank131]

S400 is mobile, Sir. Goe coordinates have to be pre fed, batteries will be moving also and it can shoot LACM too. Pak will be using SOW to target fixed installations. Exremely difficult to hit mobile targets via missile.

True S400 can move, but if its moving its not firing and it isnt difficult to tract ot while moving. That is when you can hit it with more conventional SOW like h2, h4, Ra'ad, jdam, ls-6 ect.

The whole point is to throw IAF game plan off. Hit the FOBs and take the reach of S400 out of play.

With 1-2 bombers and AWACS in air at any given time (during high tensions) PAF could take out 1-2 FOB or SAM batteries in the very early hours of a conflict.

 

[CriticalThought]

True S400 can move, but if its moving its not firing and it isnt difficult to tract ot while moving. That is when you can hit it with more conventional SOW like h2, h4, Ra'ad, jdam, ls-6 ect.

The whole point is to throw IAF game plan off. Hit the FOBs and take the reach of S400 out of play.

The ability of any one of the listed weapons to accurately hit a mobile missile launcher, especially in hilly/bushy/covered areas, is suspect.

 

[Tank131]

The ability of any one of the listed weapons to accurately hit a mobile missile launcher, especially in hilly/bushy/covered areas, is suspect

No more than any other weapon. Again if its targeted its gonna try and move. And they arent so suspect, afterall Swat and Waziristan are hilly and bushy amd these weapons (esp jdam) did just fine there.

 

[CriticalThought]

No more than any other weapon. Again if its targeted its gonna try and move. And they arent so suspect, afterall Swat and Waziristan are hilly and bushy amd these weapons (esp jdam) did just fine there.

We're talking stand off range. For the S-400 the max range would be 400 kms.

 

[Tank131]

Yes i get that but between being targeted by cm strikes its going to be moving quite a bit which will make it vulnerable to strike from other sources.

 

[CriticalThought]

Yes i get that but between being targeted by cm strikes its going to be moving quite a bit which will make it vulnerable to strike from other sources.

Agreed there is a weak spot. How much of an advantage that gives PAF is debatable.