What does being a liberal mean?

[Verve]

What a great definition!

This applies so perfectly to our beloved prophet Muhhammad PBUH and all his early followers at the very beginning of Islam.

Without liberalism, there would be no Islam. Think about that.

What an amazing way to misinterpret 'tolerance and patience' taught by our Prophet (S.A.W) in to liberalism!

I have no issues with anyone living their private lives however they want and I expect the same in return from them. Drinking and whatnot should be done in private and not in the presence of those it offends. People will start taking harsher stances when their faith is disrespected openly, and all people of various faiths and state of minds should avoid such conflicts.

What happened to Taseer was brought on to himself by insulting and openly challenging. His hot headedness costed him his life. Being a seasoned politician, he should have known better. By all means, help the Christian lady as he had the power and influence to do so even from the background but what did he gain by insulting and openly challenging? Too many drinks perhaps and lost self-control - maybe! Same issue with Bhensa group, the urge to insult and attack the faith of majority to gain what exactly - sympathy from West or from the public they've insulted? What these people achieve by such acts is hardening of the stance of the majority, and then these so-called liberal cry murder and abductions when that majority reacts.

I am also utterly against this whole sect business as well. People should keep their sects to themselves. We are polarised enough as it is, there's no need to add to it.

And yes, I have also said in posts before that anyone making false accusations of any kind (inc blasphemy) should be punished harshly. It is not the law, but the proper implementation of the rule of law that's lacking and answer is not to remove the law itself.

 

[VCheng]

There is no misinterpretation in what I have said. Your definition as stated above fits Muhammad PBUH perfectly. Compared to society around him, he was indeed the quintessential liberal.

 

[Verve]

@Hell hound

1: A strong leader with core Islamic values required, making it Top Down, who also enforces the rule of law with an iron fist.
2: Education of youth to install those core values. Industrialists took the Prussian concept of controlling and shaping the society through the children, and that works. Industrialists used it to produce a skilled workforce and it was so effective that there is too much workforce now and not enough jobs. Anyways, short is proper education with core values, freedom of creativity and choice, and encourage entrepreneurship. This GCE nonsense has to go as it produces mostly dumb and stupid humans who lack even the basic survival skills and any critical thinking.

 

[KediKesenFare3]

Allah created this world with all of its material and immaterial goods. He said:

"It was He who created all that is on the earth for you, then turned to the sky and made the seven heavens; it is He who has knowledge of all things. " (Qur'an 2:29)

If this world, this planet, the animals and plants, this environment is created for me, I have to use the best and most adequate system to exploit these goods; and we know that a Muslim also has to be a scientifically-minded person to acknowledge all what Allah gifted us.

Therefore there is no single doubt that only an electoral system can provide the best outcome for me, for us, because Allah said the resources are made for all of us. Only an electoral system makes sure that every person gets his fair share. A single person (i.e. a mullah) cannot guarantee a fair distribution of wealth.

Even our Prophet asked the sahaba's for their opinions. How come a single person in this modern and complicated times can decide for millions of humans? This means that sovereignty is created by Allah and gifted to the nations to entitle them to exploit and share all the goods he gave to us.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Islam is generally very close to Liberalism

1- Women right :
It is well known that Islam was one of first religions to introduce property rights for women. Also Islam had
provision for women to stay commited to marrige or request seperation.
Similarly Islam introduce the practice of right of women to choose her partner (consent).
Also Islam removed taboo , of marrying older women

2- Standing for right of minorities:
If you actually read the actual Hadith books, these have various court case dealings with day to day cases
and it is quite easy to see, that Prophet advocated a Just mechanism to treat minorities in court cases.

Islam offered a system to offer protection to minorities for small taxation system, this idea was later
adapted by many world countries and now simply just called taxation system. And the idea that state
protects religious freedom comes some what from Islam. In past people used to have a system , of killing
all the population and then replacing them with your own kind.

3- Education

Facinating idea that when you consider before Islam Arab land was mostly filled with uneducated people ,
however after arrival of Islam most people started to take interest in educating reading and writing. This desire to learn later grew in the golden scientific age for Islamic civilization so you can certainly say Islam played a vital role in Education / Scintific model development​

Just like liberal views Islam preaches to keep your focus on education

4- Flexibility

Offers you tremendous flexibility to pray mere 10 minutes x 5 very small duration , and also if you miss a prayer you can always perform the replacement at your own time of choosing. How flexible is that ?

you can even pray in open , on soil don't need a gold monument
​

5- Liberalism / Social Work

• Zakat i.e donation for charity , for purpose of social work on of first well defined taxation system for wealthy people. Note it did not even burden the poor but it targetted the rich class

I reviewed past historical notes and Islam has always offered refuge to folks from other nation , coming in as refugee and there have always been different religious groups part of civilization , which also shows the multicultural aspect of faith


Standig up for rights (just look at Imam hussain's example) , I am Sunni

I find tremendous number of similarities

There is ample evidence of music in earlier parts of islamic civilization (music and dance exists in all different cultures in islamic countries)


Generally folks when they talk about Liberalism , they automatically assume person drinks or has other issues. Being liberal means Lot of different view points and some people may be 100% aligned some may be 80% aligned and such and such , there is always flexibility you can be liberal but don't drink


However at end of day I like the fact I don't have to get dictated by middle man guy in private personal life

There are enough "DIRECT sources to read " why read "INTERPRETATION WORK" read the book and shahih hadith series​

 

[I.R.A]

@Hell hound

https://www.quranite.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Conspiracies-Against.pdf

 

[Nilgiri]

@The Sandman @Zibago @django @User @The Eagle

@Mentee @Chauvinist @salarsikander @Moonlight @Nilgiri

Im old school liberal.

I believe church and state should be separate....all people are born with certain inalienable rights...and that all authority must be justified by scientific evidence and debate (a fancy way of saying I prefer small, focused govt).

However the world liberal has now been hijacked over the last half century in regular parlance....to anything that is a counter culture against an established norm in society...and often with the implication that the norms are bad by virtue of them being a norm. This is a very dangerous trend that must be countered by old school (classical) liberals like me wherever we see it. We must reclaim the word, no matter how badly it has now been sullied....one step at a time. It is early days (in the fight back) and it starts with removing the culture of political correctness so science and reasoning can fill the halls of debate.

 

[Dushmann]

Islamism/Pakistaniyat and Liberalism are contradictory to each other. Anyone claiming otherwise is either ignorant of Islam or simply hypocrite and liar or somewhere in between living in denial.

But if someone living in Muslim country has truly liberal mind better keep your views to yourself or you are asking to get lynched. that would be stupid even if brave.

 

[Hell hound]

Im old school liberal.

I believe church and state should be separate....all people are born with certain inalienable rights...and that all authority must be justified by scientific evidence and debate (a fancy way of saying I prefer small, focused govt).

However the world liberal has now been hijacked over the last half century in regular parlance....to anything that is a counter culture against an established norm in society...and often with the implication that the norms are bad by virtue of them being a norm. This is a very dangerous trend that must be countered by old school (classical) liberals like me wherever we see it. We must reclaim the word, no matter how badly it has now been sullied....one step at a time. It is early days (in the fight back) and it starts with removing the culture of political correctness so science and reasoning can fill the halls of debate.

a level headed approach indeed
thats what i was trying convince these guys that liberalism is much more than drinking ,having sex or bashing the old values just because they are old.its first priority is to bring tolerance in the society and give equal rights to everyone.but even after all my effort it feels like i was just playing the flute in front of a cow.no one actually listened to what i have to say. they still think liberalism is just another way to spread vulgarity and get in each others pants.

 

[Verve]

What's the point of this discussion if it is selective.

Yes, good and bad (immoral etc) to it but if you only want to focus on the good then just say so that bad is out of scope!

Islam is generally very close to Liberalism

1- Women right :
It is well known that Islam was one of first religions to introduce property rights for women. Also Islam had
provision for women to stay commited to marrige or request seperation.
Similarly Islam introduce the practice of right of women to choose her partner (consent).
Also Islam removed taboo , of marrying older women

2- Standing for right of minorities:
If you actually read the actual Hadith books, these have various court case dealings with day to day cases
and it is quite easy to see, that Prophet advocated a Just mechanism to treat minorities in court cases.

Islam offered a system to offer protection to minorities for small taxation system, this idea was later
adapted by many world countries and now simply just called taxation system. And the idea that state
protects religious freedom comes some what from Islam. In past people used to have a system , of killing
all the population and then replacing them with your own kind.

3- Education

Facinating idea that when you consider before Islam Arab land was mostly filled with uneducated people ,
however after arrival of Islam most people started to take interest in educating reading and writing. This desire to learn later grew in the golden scientific age for Islamic civilization so you can certainly say Islam played a vital role in Education / Scintific model development​

Just like liberal views Islam preaches to keep your focus on education

4- Flexibility

Offers you tremendous flexibility to pray mere 10 minutes x 5 very small duration , and also if you miss a prayer you can always perform the replacement at your own time of choosing. How flexible is that ?

you can even pray in open , on soil don't need a gold monument
​

5- Liberalism / Social Work

• Zakat i.e donation for charity , for purpose of social work on of first well defined taxation system for wealthy people. Note it did not even burden the poor but it targetted the rich class

I reviewed past historical notes and Islam has always offered refuge to folks from other nation , coming in as refugee and there have always been different religious groups part of civilization , which also shows the multicultural aspect of faith


Standig up for rights (just look at Imam hussain's example) , I am Sunni

I find tremendous number of similarities

There is ample evidence of music in earlier parts of islamic civilization (music and dance exists in all different cultures in islamic countries)


Generally folks when they talk about Liberalism , they automatically assume person drinks or has other issues. Being liberal means Lot of different view points and some people may be 100% aligned some may be 80% aligned and such and such , there is always flexibility you can be liberal but don't drink


However at end of day I like the fact I don't have to get dictated by middle man guy in private personal life

There are enough "DIRECT sources to read " why read "INTERPRETATION WORK" read the book and shahih hadith series​

Let me ask you guys this, which came first - Islam or Liberalism? And when I say liberalism. I mean the purest form of it with all the good and the bad!

There's a picture being painted that Islam wouldn't exist without liberalism and that Prophet S.A.W was a liberal. By that, his Message (Quran) would be Liberal too. And if the message is liberal, then Allah must be liberal too. So shall we change the name of Islam to Liberalism?

If you believe in Prophet S.A.W and the Quran, then why resort to another concept/mindset?. Equality, tolerance, patience, cleanliness, and many other values, why try to put them in the liberalism basket when they all are part of Islam to begin with.

 

[VCheng]

Actually, Islam, as it was practiced by Muhammad PBUH, was indeed a liberal religion. 100%.

The fossilization of Islam is a relatively recent phenomenon.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

I view Islam to be quite Liberal and liberalism was acknowledged way after Islam arrived but in its implementation it is very much derrived from Islamic values

1- Freedom eat 99.99% dishes may be 0.001% made haram complete liberalism to select what you eat
This is not example of conservatism when you can eat 99.99% goods on planet

2- Freedom to pray any time during 24 hours if you miss a prayer again lot of flexibility, very liberal view
Sure you shoud ideally pray on time but if you miss a prayer , you can make it up - seems liberal

3- There are 99.9% verious drinks available for Muslims to drink and may be just 0.001% haram , seems like
very liberal view in what people can drink , not conservative thought you have to drink water all the time.

4- Various laws that gave rights to women for property rights , marrige consent (yes/no) etc these are all
Liberal


If someone embarks on a immoral act , this is a act done under personal decision of a human and not necessarily reflects the religion


Example:
Islam states get married , show interest approach and sell your self as a good person (Again liberal view you can pick choose your mate not tied to clans)


Now it is up to a person to decide how to implement that idea , obviously if they don't get married and disappear from picture (fun and run) , this has nothing to do with what the religion preaches , it is your own action (Personal Action).


Example:
Islam clearly states do not kill another human , avoid that conflict (liberal view live and let live)

Now it is up to the individual person to implement that teaching , a person might go ahead , may end up killing someone in robbery or theft . So does that makes Islam less Liberal ?

If someone kills a human for allegation alone , with no court proceeding. Then his followers setup a shrine for him. Is that similar to Islamic teaching - don't think so.


Example:
As you know there are various exampe of Minority religion during time of Prophet , he would listen to court cases and decide justly with out bias being fair as possible. Did prophet by his example listen to court cases for all minority in his time or did he just randomly only listened to Muslim cases
(Seems like Liberal view to me)


So lets assume we have a lunatic Musilm decides to kill someone because he feel the person has offended his view and lets assume he kills some minority member of society , so is this killing his personal act or not . It is 100% personal act . One that is punishable. Islam never tells you to go start randoming killing folks , we have example of cases being discussed in court and disputes being discussed.

• Liberalism does not means attack Religious personalities such extreme views are only done by extreme right wing minded folks on either side of spectrum

Islam is the most flexible system around when you studiy it from its core teachings.

 

[Verve]

Food for thought: disgusting that one would claim the Prophet S.A.W is a liberal when liberalism or the concept of it only came to being 1000yrs later and that also against the state religion!

Who started liberalism?
Liberalism rejected the prevailing social and political norms of hereditary privilege, state religion, absolute monarchy, and the Divine Right of Kings. The 17th-century philosopher John Locke is often credited with founding liberalism as a distinct philosophical tradition.

Actually, Islam, as it was practiced by Muhammad PBUH, was indeed a liberal religion. 100%.

The fossilization of Islam is a relatively recent phenomenon.

You don't need to redefine Islam with a concept/tradition that was born 1000yrs later.

Define Islam as it instead of paint it with a colour of another tradition.

 

[VCheng]

Muhammad PBUH was the first liberal. He rejected the prevailing social and political norms of Mecca even before the Divine Revelation.

 

[Hell hound]

A strong leader with core Islamic values required, making it Top Down, who also enforces the rule of law with an iron fist.

that where you are wrong it is far more easier and practical to rule the hearts of the people than ruling them by iron fist. look at the Portuguese example how they ruled Brasil through soft power.