Vietnam Defence Forum

[World Citizen]

My friend, a normal soldier, work for a military petroleum company just has got the order to transfer to Spratly at any time. We r at the state of war now, all troops r ready to fight . Many VN guys will have to join the army and die in the next war soon, 10 Millions casualties is acceptable .

Vietnamese ready to fight and die for their sea and land for a good cause and good government, but not for this full corrupt communist regime, you tell me what good has communist regime do since the Vietnamese people win the war again the USA (almost 40yrs already).

 

[Genesis]

Dude, I am no coward. In the height of the Haiyang 981 tension, I thought of leaving my job to join the army. What I meant is in the war with US, we have nothing to lose. They said they would bomb us back to the stone age, well we were already in the stone age. But now, everyone has something to lose. And we won't be ready to sacrifice that much anymore.

I know you are an extremist, but inside you are a patriot, like many other VNese. Our methods might be different but our love for VN is the same. Don't worry I am not one of those democracist "Rận Chủ". I just prefer peace over war, and avoid war if possible, even by sacrificing some minor value. Of course Paracels and Spartly are not one of those "minor value".

That's actually sane and rational, what the hell.

 

[NiceGuy]

Vietnamese ready to fight and die for their sea and land for a good cause and good government, but not for this full corrupt communist regime, you tell me what good has communist regime do since the Vietnamese people win the war again the USA (almost 40yrs already).

Of course the Govt. need to work harder with less corruption, and they r cleaning the corruption now, the US-JP Govt. recognize VN effort in cleaning the corruption, thats why they come and help us.

since the Vietnamese people win the war again the USA, we also had to fight against China-Pol Pot from 1979 to 1989. VN just have more than 20 years in peace with so many problems after so many wars. We need more time to recover before we can keep going foward, bro.

 

[xesy]

Vietnamese ready to fight and die for their sea and land for a good cause and good government, but not for this full corrupt communist regime, you tell me what good has communist regime do since the Vietnamese people win the war again the USA (almost 40yrs already).

Please don't come back to this matter. It's not about what good communists have done for VN, but what they will do for VN in case of a foreign invasion. By far their records on that matter is pretty. Communists fought Japanese, French, ending an over 100 years period of VN being a colony. Communists fought US and their pupet SV govt to unify VN. What they have achieved is admirable, but, of course there are corruption going on. When fighting against invader, we fight not for a flag, nor a govt, but for the motherland. And it's worth dieing for.

That's actually sane and rational, what the hell.

That's also go the same to China. I believe no Chinese mom and dad would want their sons joining a war. Even if China overuns VN in matter of days, there will be Chinese casuality. The majority might accept that, thinking it's just a small number, but to the family, no excuse, no apology letter, no compensate money is enough. What's good for them if the country moves forward, but some have to stay behind forever? @NiceGuy is not wrong about how much we are ready to sacrifice, but those are not number, those are people, man, husband, father, son, brothers. Each of them has a story, each of them has someone waiting for them and now they are ready to throw away their lives for a nameless rock, for an invisible red line.

I think that both sides should avoid war, show some restraints and work around on the peace talk. War is innevitable, that is human nature, that is what I believe. But let it be a battle of words, not a battle of arms.

 

[poopnose456]

@xesy 1. American people and government has moved on and want friendship with Vietnam. Hope Vietnamese people today has moved on since the war and from what I heard is that Vietnam is the most Pro-American country in Asia.

2. True can't argue with that.

3. Like I said, the American Generation today has already moved on. US has no hate for Vietnam today besides the fact that Vietnam is communist but that's it. Forgiveness and friendship. American's has learned a lot from Vietnam War History and I know since I live here that there is no Hate against Vietnam because of the Vietnam War. Times has changed, US has interest in Vietnam too, Politically and Economically.

I favor a US Naval Base in Vietnam would be great.
Question: How will the Vietnamese Communist Regime react if Communist China invade Vietnam?

 

[xesy]

@xesy 1. American people and government has moved on and want friendship with Vietnam. Hope Vietnamese people today has moved on since the war and from what I heard is that Vietnam is the most Pro-American country in Asia.

2. True can't argue with that.

3. Like I said, the American Generation today has already moved on. US has no hate for Vietnam today besides the fact that Vietnam is communist but that's it. Forgiveness and friendship. American's has learned a lot from Vietnam War History and I know since I live here that there is no Hate against Vietnam because of the Vietnam War. Times has changed, US has interest in Vietnam too, Politically and Economically.

I favor a US Naval Base in Vietnam would be great.
Question: How will the Vietnamese Communist Regime react if Communist China invade Vietnam?

Communists are known for their stubborness (from my experience, as my dad and my uncle are both communists). You'll be surperised how many VNese still hold grudge agaisnt US. Also VN is not pro-America. Many VNese still favor Russia over US.

Till now, VN still maintains there 3 NO policies, and if it'still in effect, there won't be any chance for a foreign military base.

The answer to your question is simple: we fight. If the communist govt surrenders, we overthrow them, set up a new govt, then we fight. Many VNese are not communists, but most of them are nationalists. That I can assure you.

 

[NiceGuy]

Communists are known for their stubborness (from my experience, as my dad and my uncle are both communists). You'll be surperised how many VNese still hold grudge agaisnt US. Also VN is not a pro-American. Many VNese still favor Russia over US.

Right, in Mind-training course for our soldiers, US with its 'color revolt.' is still the most dangerous thing for the sovereignty and territorial integrity of VN.

China army is poorly trained, low morale in fighting and corrupted with fighter engines still have to buy from Russia,so, they r not so dangerous like what they r trying to show off now.

 

[xesy]

Right, in Mind-training course for our soldiers, US with its 'color revolt.' is still the most dangerous thing for the sovereignty and territorial integrity of VN.

China army is poorly trained, low morale in fighting and corrupted with fighter engines still have to buy from Russia,so, they r not so dangerous like what they r trying to show off now.

Time has changed, so does the enemy. VN can't be enemies to the whole world. We have to make friend, even to former foe. I don't trust US enough to let them have troops in VN, but I don't hate having them around the area either.

Don't underestimate the enemy and overestimate ourself. Doing that won't change the balance of power, but help us better prepare against them when the time come.

 

[dichoi]

Party chef of commie party said recently on VTV that "we can not choice our neighbor...." and he stop. I guess that he could say in further sentence that "...but, we can choice our friend."

I think, cold war is died. Japan, USA ... is Vietnam's friend now. The game is just going on.

 

[Viet]

I like the idea of a US military presence in Danang and Cam Ranh bay if they sign a defense treaty with full guarantees like the one with Japan. The airfield and naval base in Danang are rather small, they would need to be expanded.

Yes, Danang is ideally located, next to South China Sea. Airfield and naval base can be upgraded in no time.

 

[Viet]

Time has changed, so does the enemy. VN can't be enemies to the whole world. We have to make friend, even to former foe. I don't trust US enough to let them have troops in VN, but I don't hate having them around the area either.

Don't underestimate the enemy and overestimate ourself. Doing that won't change the balance of power, but help us better prepare against them when the time come.

surely, trust can´t be built overnight. are you northerner? as southerner I have a more favorite view on America.
perhaps this article is of your interest, from the US department of defence. Yes, it is all about trust. It is the basis for everything. an alliance never works if trust does not exist among partners.

Defense.gov News Article: Dempsey Building Trust in Vietnam Visit

 

[xesy]

surely, trust can´t be built overnight. are you northerner? as southerner I have a more favorite view on America.
perhaps this article is of your interest, from the US department of defence. Yes, it is all about trust. It is the basis for everything. an alliance never works if trust does not exist among partners.

Defense.gov News Article: Dempsey Building Trust in Vietnam Visit

I am a northerner, grew up in a province right next to China. Luckily I had a chance to study in Saigon for a few years. During that time, I developed a more neutral way of thinking, and started judging about things people taught me in highschool about history, about politics. I don't favor any particular foreign countries, well except Japan maybe, I always love Japan. But it has nothing to do with politic or history. Their culture just attracts me naturally.

Back to the topic, you are right about trust must be built up gradually. But trust between VN and US is far from what I would call a start. There are still people die from US bombs and mines every years. There are still victims of Agent Orange suffering. There are still US soldiers remain missing from the war. Until VN and US work those things out, then we can start talking about improving further relationship. Of course China and Russia will get in the way somehow. So a VN-US alliance will not happen anytime soon.

 

[William Hung]

Totally correct, the cheapest European subs would cost at least $500 million compared to the $300 million of a Kilo and the Kilo is actually more silent than both of those.

Ok, is there any reason/data to show how the Kilo is more silent than the Scorpene/Type-214? don't say its becuase of those rubber anechoic tiles, cause the Scorpene/Type-214 has them too (the german uses them first in WW2 u-boats while the soviet only adopted them much later).

First of all, AIP is not overated. Whether its worth spending money on it is another issue/debate. But you can't deny that running in AIP mode is more silent. This link shows that when the Type-214 is in Battery+AIP mode, there is already a significant increase in submerged endurance even at the speed of 8 knots:

http://media.bmt.org/bmt_media/resources/33/SubmarinePowerandPropulsion-Trends&Opportunities.pdf

Also, a restriction of 4-5knots in AIP does not make it overated like you said:

The top speed of many of the modern SSK designs is around 20 knots. This speed is partly selected due to the self-
noise created above this speed which makes it difficult to detect other vessels. Due to the era of modern high-speed
torpedoes and other munitions, the top speed of an SSK is not set to outrun a torpedo as the power penalty would be
immense.

The key requirement is range, not top speed: a good range will permit operations far from base-port, as well as
extended duration in theatre once the submarine has arrived.
The transit to the theatre may allow snorting and be
on batteries to avoid depleting the AIP fuels and oxidant. Self-noise on such occasions is still critical but to arrive in
a realistic timescale, the speed in transits needs to be greater than the submerged speed of economic advance where
the propulsive power equals the ships base cruise electrical power demand. Transit speeds of 8 to 10 knots are
therefore to be expected with snorting between once and twice a day. A reasonable future transit requirement would
be 12,000nm in 50 days at 10 knots.
When on patrol in theatre, the AIP would be used and the duration at speeds between 4 and 5 knots can now be over
3 weeks.

Figure 2 also shows that the future AIP-based Type 214 will be able to stay immersed for over 1 month. This
compares with the Type 212A record of 2 weeks submerged without snorting with fuel-cells between Germany and
Spain in April 2006 [Ref. 3].

The ability to stay on the sea bed for extended periods of time for deployment of UUV and their recovery and
simply for the reconnoitring of passing shipping with a possible view to trailing them is also a key part of the
requirements set for an SSK.

Littoral Operation
The usual role of an SSK in peacetime is the need to monitor events near shore. This leads to a real need for stealth
and so low indiscretion and noise reduction and elimination are key objectives.
With the improved passive sonar performance of many MOTS products and a greater number of potential
adversarial SSK’s at sea, it is evermore necessary to sustain stealth. These operating conditions have changed the
need for power and the storage of energy.
Therefore the use of diesel engines to recharge batteries is increasingly seen as a limiting feature to achieving the
necessary stealth. The AIP would provide the direct power to the ships services in this mode. The excess power
from the AIP would also be used to replenish batteries so that top speeds could continue to be reached if so
demanded.

In the past, power delivery and energy storage has been predicated around sprint conditions for evasion after a
strike. Whilst this continues to be a key design requirement, noise from hull turbulence is difficult to avoid at
speeds above 20 knots and so although such speeds may be required for sprint, they are not necessary for transits.
Consequently the challenge is less power-driven but centred more around energy storage and submerged air-
independent methods to recharge the energy storage

A suitable requirement would be to consider how best to recharge the batteries without the noise of diesel engine
operations. This might comprise an alternative passive surface-breathing power-source (SBPS) such as a fuel cell
which is much quieter. Its reduced noise would allow for longer snorting without the risk of indiscretion. Therefore
the SBPS could be rated at a lower power than the current diesel engines.

The Kilo class can only charge the batteries through its diesel engines and requires to surface more frequently than the AIP equipped Type-214.

The use of diesel engines for snorting at Periscope Depth (PD) to recharge the batteries presents a noisy solution to
a necessary function. Although such engines could be acoustically enclosed the confines of a submarine make this
difficult to achieve and the future pressing stealth targets mean that a diesel has to be seen as a prime target for
replacement.

 

[poopnose456]

What if there was a Vietnam-Philippine-Japan Military Alliance? Wonder how that would work out.

 

[William Hung]

@Carlosa Here is another interesting paper called "Submarine Hull Form Optimization Case Study" by C. Warren and M. Thomas (you can search in the link I gave you).

Note that the Kilo class has a highly tapered stern (the rate at which the hull profile transitions from a maxi-
mum radius to the propeller hub radius. A highly tapered stern is one in which this transition occurs slowly, result-
ing in a relatively slender profile)

The newer subs like the type-214 or even the Lada/Amur has a less tapered stern (the article would call this full-stern).

Basically, the paper argue that:

A full stern design allows considerable flexibility in the submarine internal and external arrangements and provides more evenly distributed buoyancy along the longitudinal axis of the submarine. This buoyancy allows the propulsion equipment to be shifted aft and thus provides more forward space for command and control functions.

Recent order-of-magnitude studies have shown that a full stern may reduce the submarine length by 5 to 18 percent (Jackson 1995; Trost 1996). The shorter submarine will also have a length-to-diameter ratio closer to the hydrodynamic optimum of approximately six to one (Burcher and Rydill1994)

And this full stern hull with hydorodynamic optimum ratio allows it to achieve:

a full stern submarine may actually achieve a higher maximum speed with the same installed horsepower due to the shorter hull form and more optimal length-to diameter ratio....

The ultimate goal is to answer the question of whether a full stern is a better hull envelope in general than a
tapered stern....

Analysis indicates that the full stern has a greater maximum speed than a comparable tapered stern submarine.
The full stern speed is 25.1 knots compared to the tapered stern speed of 22.2 knots. Thus, these results
support the idea that the full stem submarine has potential benefits in powering characteristics.

Baiscally, the full stern hull is a more efficient design (hydrodynamic-wise) in terms of speed. With the same propulsion power, a highly tapered stern hull would go slower than a full stern one. You can see why most modern subs are now less tapered than the Kilo.

However, this paper doesn't say anything about stealth. Another paper I've read, which I can't find it yet, basically says that the Type-214 would be more stealthy than the Kilo (more tapered) because:

- The propulsion motor was able to be shifted closer to the propeller (since its less tapered) so the propeller shaft is shorter (worry less about vibration and less mounts).
- Since the hull is a more efficient design and more compact, the propulsion system requires less power and most likely slower propulsion shaft speed (so this mean its more quiet). The "improved" kilo has a lower propeller speed than the earlier Kilo but it only achieved this by using a more powerful motor. The Type-214 can achieve a low propeller speed because of its better hydrodynamic design.