USS Reagan, OEF and Pakistan

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Rana, youngman, seems like you do not know the answer---niether do I know it all, but I will give you a perspective to ponder upon.

It took good pakistani pilots about 4 to 7 years to become good flyers on the F 16. It took them 7 to 10 years to excel on that machine. The 90's series of Mirage 2000 that pakistan was interested in was superior to the pakistani F 16 in electronics---it would be expected that it would take the PAF to step up from F 16 to Mirage 2000 within another 5 to 7 years. At that point the Mirage 2000's would be getting close to a possible upgrade which means that another 2 to 3 years for the current pilots to get used to the upgraded M 2000 and perform at 90 % plus capabilities. So, by the end of year 2000 to 2003 PAF would have been very well equipped with the right number of planes, good fighter pilot and ground support, ready to combat all aircraft of indian air force except for the SU 30 and ready for a fighter plane like the rafael etc etc.

In the year 2004 to 07 PAF would have been able to purchase an air superiority fighter to combat the SU 30. Its pilots would have been well trained on a 3.5 generation fighter aircraft and would be ready and eager in stepping upto a 4-4.5 gen striker.

Millitary procurement decisions should not be handled by politicians.

The purchase of the Grippen after all that pomp and stomp, fizzled out and the statement that the PAF air marshall gave was a sad story to a great ending. Truthfully---the PAF was not capable and able to handle the technology gap that they faced from jumping from an F 16 A/B aircraft and upgraded mirage rose 111 to the grippen. At least the air marshall needs to be given the credit for telling the truth.

So, here we are in year 2007-- and we are excited to get a 3-3.5 gen plane as per the electronics are concerned and and 2.5-3rd generation as far as the engine is concerned and it will be another 3 years when we may have barely 2-2.5 squadrons of these planes plus another 3 to 5 years for our pilots to excel at flying these birds. OOOOOOH once you get stuck behind that 8 ball---it is tough to get out. From an offensive strike force of the 60's 70's and 80's, we can barely make up for a defencive air force.

It is travesty that our young men want to fight todays battles with what they are going to purchase tomorrow----whereas the rest of the world fights its todays battle from what it purchased yesterday, so that it could have the night to prepare for the war.

 

[blain2]

Hi,

Rana, youngman, seems like you do not know the answer---niether do I know it all, but I will give you a perspective to ponder upon.

It took good pakistani pilots about 4 to 7 years to become good flyers on the F 16. It took them 7 to 10 years to excel on that machine. The 90's series of Mirage 2000 that pakistan was interested in was superior to the pakistani F 16 in electronics---it would be expected that it would take the PAF to step up from F 16 to Mirage 2000 within another 5 to 7 years. At that point the Mirage 2000's would be getting close to a possible upgrade which means that another 2 to 3 years for the current pilots to get used to the upgraded M 2000 and perform at 90 % plus capabilities. So, by the end of year 2000 to 2003 PAF would have been very well equipped with the right number of planes, good fighter pilot and ground support, ready to combat all aircraft of indian air force except for the SU 30 and ready for a fighter plane like the rafael etc etc.

In the year 2004 to 07 PAF would have been able to purchase an air superiority fighter to combat the SU 30. Its pilots would have been well trained on a 3.5 generation fighter aircraft and would be ready and eager in stepping upto a 4-4.5 gen striker.

Millitary procurement decisions should not be handled by politicians.

The purchase of the Grippen after all that pomp and stomp, fizzled out and the statement that the PAF air marshall gave was a sad story to a great ending. Truthfully---the PAF was not capable and able to handle the technology gap that they faced from jumping from an F 16 A/B aircraft and upgraded mirage rose 111 to the grippen. At least the air marshall needs to be given the credit for telling the truth.

So, here we are in year 2007-- and we are excited to get a 3-3.5 gen plane as per the electronics are concerned and and 2.5-3rd generation as far as the engine is concerned and it will be another 3 years when we may have barely 2-2.5 squadrons of these planes plus another 3 to 5 years for our pilots to excel at flying these birds. OOOOOOH once you get stuck behind that 8 ball---it is tough to get out. From an offensive strike force of the 60's 70's and 80's, we can barely make up for a defencive air force.

It is travesty that our young men want to fight todays battles with what they are going to purchase tomorrow----whereas the rest of the world fights its todays battle from what it purchased yesterday, so that it could have the night to prepare for the war.

I think too many liberties have been taken in the post above . Let me add my $.02 here as well for what its worth.

The M2Ks were evaluated by the PAF 3 times. The first two times they simply did not meet the ASR laid down by the PAF. The 3rd time, when F-16s were already inducted and operational, the M2K-5's performance was found to be at par with our F-16s and slightly better in some aspects (this was mostly in the arena of avionics because the dash 5 was a more recent thing than the blk 15). This is because the aircraft had a Dash 5 configuration available. Prior to that, the M2K was not even a decent Air to Surface platform (which is why the PAF still wanted to stay with more F-16s).

The dash5 configuration in itself provides nothing specific to which PAF was not already exposed to on the blk-15s. The range of the radar was perhaps slightly longer than the APG-66 etc and the French had integrated more weapons (A-to-A and A-to-S). But overall M2K-5 did not provide PAF any generational leap over the F-16s in service. The biggest interest in the M2K-5 for the PAF was due to the fact that no additional F-16s were forthcoming. Across Europe and US, the only alternate to the embargoed F-16s were the M2K. Very pricey but with similar capabilities as the existing F-16s. Had we purchased the M2Ks, we would have had a larger number of aircraft in the 4th generation category. This did not happen however even if this had happened, the gap in terms of not having an aircraft in the 4.5 gen would have remained (which would be filled with the blk52 eventually).

The purchase of the Grippen after all that pomp and stomp, fizzled out and the statement that the PAF air marshall gave was a sad story to a great ending. Truthfully---the PAF was not capable and able to handle the technology gap that they faced from jumping from an F 16 A/B aircraft and upgraded mirage rose 111 to the grippen. At least the air marshall needs to be given the credit for telling the truth.

Never have I at least seen or heard any PAF official say that we were "technically incapable" of converting to JAS-39 (Can you please provide a link/source or even a roundabout search string for google so we can see who said this and when?). In Sweden, the pilots who are being converted over to the type do so in less than half the time spent on F-16 conversion. This is because the aircraft is inherently easy to convert on to. Secondly, what you say does not make sense because a similar transition happens for all air forces and they learn and get around it. We would be a bunch of morons if we were incapable of doing so. Having seen the caliber and technical competence of quite a few PAF personnel, at least I am not willing to buy this argument.

Also do you think that conversion from Mirage III/V and F-6s over to the F-16s was any easier? IAF has only recently been exposed to a true MR aircraft (with the induction of MKI). Do you think that it was any easier for them to switch from a dedicated platform to one which has a MR profile? Also having chatted with an IP in-charge of the PAF F-16 training in the 80s, I was pleased to find out that he was very impressed by the PAF pilots. So the point about our inability to handle the technology gap seems fairly weak. The Gripen was shot down by the Swedes even after Musharraf himself asked for them and we had been given the MNNA status. The fact that US was forthcoming with releasing the F-16s resulted in PAF moving on from JAS-39. Blk 52 and JAS-39 are extremely comparable in terms of avionics and technology infusion (with the former being more capable MR platform). So if PAF is able to switch to Blk-52 and MLU'd F-16s from the same 4th gen blk 15 F-16s and 3.5/4 gen Mirage IIIs, then what would hold us back from converting to JAS-39?

So, here we are in year 2007-- and we are excited to get a 3-3.5 gen plane as per the electronics are concerned and and 2.5-3rd generation as far as the engine is concerned

My friend, JF-17 is at a minimum 4th gen and during the lifetime an easy 4.5 gen aircraft (PAF is already evaluating AESA for the type and that is a sure shot factor in 4.5 generation classification). Propulsion and airframe are not what distinguish the generation from 3 to 4 & 4.5. Propulsion and Airframe do make a difference when we talk about a jump from 3rd Gen to 5th gen. In-between nothing revolutionary has come out which requires it to be classified as a separate gen. Its whats inside in terms of the glassing of the cockpit and avionics. Blk 15 F-16 is a 4th gen aircraft. MLU F-16s are pretty much 4.5 as are blk 52s and MKI, Gripen, Rafale and EF2K. So what PAF is getting (JF-17) is not an aircraft in the league of the Agave/Cyrano equipped Mirage V/III (which were late 2nd and early 3rd gen aircraft).

 

[Keysersoze]

Thank you Blain for that post......I must admit I was a bit stumped by someone suggesting that they could not handle advanced aircraft.........I mean South Africa went from mirages to Gripens wonder how they handled it? How did the PAF jump from Prop planes to the jet age?

It's worth considering the fact that any new purchases will have training and integration included.

 

[MastanKhan]

Blain2,

I think you got angry at my post and without thinking you started to write.

What do you think that I am trying to say---same thing as you---today we would have had a higher number of Mirage 2k's----our air force would have been very well versed with the system and very well placed against the enemy---the M 2k would have been upgraded and the fighter pilots would have been in sync with the new upgrades and at this time the only aircraft in the enemies arsenal that we had to be concerned would have been the SU 30. Today we would have been looking for a 4.5-5 th gen strike aircraft. Instead of being defensive AF, we would not have lost our offensive edge.

Today, PAF is where it was 15 to 20 years ago---big deal about the rose upgrades and F 7 PG's. They cannot stand in front of any indian frontline strike air craft.

How much time do you think it takes a PAF pilot to master an F 16 A/ B aircraft. The manufacturer says that it took about 5--8 years to reach the peak. The pakistani pilots at Hill Air Force Base out side Ogden Utah in 1983 told me that it would take them 5 plus years to really know the plane well ( by the way I was living in Ogden at that time-----books written by air force pilots state that F 15---F 16 category planes took about 5 to 10 years to master, because these planes could do so much more over their predeccessors and the pilots had to learn so much more as compared to the older air craft.

I didn't expect it that somebody like you would not know as to how much time it took the F 16 pilot to master the air craft. Surprise--surprise.

The range of the radar of early 90's M2k was 1 1/2 time to double that of early F 16's that we had---ask a fighter pilot what it means at time of pre- death seconds. Here is a plane---there are no sanctions---all the upgrades are available with any missile system that france made plus BVR's, pilots are readily exposed to newer versions and newer upgrade---your AF is all set and ready for a blast.

You talk about BLK 52 that pakistan is getting----and I will repeat--- our young men want to fight todays battles with what they are going to purchase tomorrow----whereas the rest of the world fights its todays battle from what it purchased yesterday, so that it could have the night to prepare for the war. Yes we will get the Blk 52 and our pilots will be ready in the next 3 to 5 years.

The PAF air marshall recent interview is available and I am going to post it here---and you and Keyesersoze will owe me an open apology on this board.

 

[MastanKhan]

Blain2,

On this thread millitary aviation-----on the 3rd page---a banned member posted air marshall's interview----the date of posting is 04/01/07. The member is Kaiser-----read the answer to the last question please and kindly post it here for other members to read it as well.

 

[Titanium]

If I recall correctly, it was in relation ToT of Gripen, not of Pilot conversion.

 

[blain2]

Blain2,

On this thread millitary aviation-----on the 3rd page---a banned member posted air marshall's interview----the date of posting is 04/01/07. The member is Kaiser-----read the answer to the last question please and kindly post it here for other members to read it as well.

Khan sahib, I am not mad at all. Just posted my observations and will get back to your post after reading what you have pointed out above. Thanks!

Ok read it and remember this interview (even have it saved) and the point is definitely wrt ToT (as Titanium pointed out as well) and not conversion to the type. With regards to ToT, you can forget about Gripen, we do not even have enough capacity to absorb all of the technology required for JF-17. This is the reason that PAF did not push for any considerable offset for the blk-52 order either. We know what we can do and what we can't in terms of taking the ToT and utilizing it. The scope is fairly basic for Pakistan's aviation industry. So lets not mix-up absorption of technology by our local industry with that of what the PAF can operate.

 

[blain2]

Blain2,

I think you got angry at my post and without thinking you started to write.

Again I am not mad at all...just thought that your post had very many loose ends...if my post came across as something in anger then my apologies. It was not meant that way.

What do you think that I am trying to say---same thing as you---today we would have had a higher number of Mirage 2k's----our air force would have been very well versed with the system and very well placed against the enemy---the M 2k would have been upgraded and the fighter pilots would have been in sync with the new upgrades and at this time the only aircraft in the enemies arsenal that we had to be concerned would have been the SU 30.

Agreed but what I am saying is slightly different. M2k-5 was not anything leagues ahead of the blk-15. So the technology infusion, even if M2K-5 had been inducted, would have been fairly limited (You can compare the ECM, Radar, Weapons etc. for blk-15 and M2K-5 and won't see a whole lot of a difference). So my point is that M2K-5 was not any sort of a bridge to the next-gen of aircraft. F-16 blk 15 is the bridge for us over to 4.5 gen aircraft.
When you consider the exorbitant cost of the M2K-5 deal ($4.2 billion dollars in BB's time), it was a rip-off. Although PAF liked the aircraft, it was out of a necessity and compulsion because we could not get our hands on more F-16s.

The plus would have been that our ratio wrt the IAF in terms of 3rd/4th gen aircraft would have been a bit better (but that is us assuming that IAF would not have purchased more had the number of F-16s and M2Ks in the PAF been around 80 (40 + 40). So in my opinion, the overall situation would have been the same with the minor difference that more of our pilots would have been on 4th gen aircraft.

Today we would have been looking for a 4.5-5 th gen strike aircraft. Instead of being defensive AF, we would not have lost our offensive edge.

We have always been a defensive AF with a selective offensive capability. This is not to change in the future owing to our comparative size vis-a-vis India. On the issue of looking for 4.5-5 gen aircraft, we are still in the exact same situation as we would have been even with the induction of M2K-5. This is my key point. The blk-15 is not as out-dated as you are assuming it to be. The MLU on the blk-15 makes is better than Dash-5 and equal to Dash-9 (aka Dash 5 MKII) of the UAEAF.

Today, PAF is where it was 15 to 20 years ago---big deal about the rose upgrades and F 7 PG's. They cannot stand in front of any indian frontline strike air craft.

I do not think that PAF is where it was 15-20 years ago. ROSE upgrade is not a joke. In terms of Precision missions and night attack, the ROSE aircraft are better than F-16 blk 15s. The FLIR on the Mirages is a much better capability than the LDPs on the F-16s and can be compared with any other FLIRs on offer with any 4.5 gen aircraft. The GrifoM3 is capable of BVR engagements whereas 15-20 years ago, we could only think about it. The F-7PG is a point defence aircraft and is not meant for multi-role tasks so to expect something great out of a $5-6 million aircraft is unreasonable. With some type of HMS capability investment, it can become even more decent PD platform.

How much time do you think it takes a PAF pilot to master an F 16 A/ B aircraft. The manufacturer says that it took about 5--8 years to reach the peak. The pakistani pilots at Hill Air Force Base out side Ogden Utah in 1983 told me that it would take them 5 plus years to really know the plane well ( by the way I was living in Ogden at that time-----books written by air force pilots state that F 15---F 16 category planes took about 5 to 10 years to master, because these planes could do so much more over their predeccessors and the pilots had to learn so much more as compared to the older air craft.

I didn't expect it that somebody like you would not know as to how much time it took the F 16 pilot to master the air craft. Surprise--surprise.

Not sure where you are going with this one? I know and do understand that learning to fly an aircraft and then developing tactics and effective employment of the aircraft are two different things with the latter two taking way more time (as we have seen with PAF's experience with the F-16s during the Afghan war). So even if we had M2K-5s, the technology gained and its tactics development would not have been that much different from what we learned to do with the F-16s.

The range of the radar of early 90's M2k was 1 1/2 time to double that of early F 16's that we had---ask a fighter pilot what it means at time of pre- death seconds. Here is a plane---there are no sanctions---all the upgrades are available with any missile system that france made plus BVR's, pilots are readily exposed to newer versions and newer upgrade---your AF is all set and ready for a blast.

Pakistan was offered M2K-5 (and not MkII which eventually became Mirage-2000-9 featuring RDY2) with RDY radar. RDY's performance is about the same as APG-66. As I have mentioned, the radar evaluated by the PAF on M2K was found to be good but nothing that was by leaps and bounds, better. RDY-2 would have been a good thing but it was not on the table as it was under-development back then.

You talk about BLK 52 that pakistan is getting----and I will repeat--- our young men want to fight todays battles with what they are going to purchase tomorrow----whereas the rest of the world fights its todays battle from what it purchased yesterday, so that it could have the night to prepare for the war. Yes we will get the Blk 52 and our pilots will be ready in the next 3 to 5 years.

Blk-52 will remain in service with the Airforces of the countries operating them for the next 30-40 years..its a platform for the future that is why even NATO countries have placed orders for them post the PAF order. IAF is not turning 5th generation in the next 20 years so until that happens, blk-52, and MLU'd F-16s along with JF-17s remain a very potent capability for years to come in the sub-continent. Avionics wise, IAF has nothing that totally out-classes what PAF has on its immediate road-map.
The landscape is changing very rapidly for PAF (as is for the IAF) with the induction of capabilities such as EW that make the individual platforms less important than the overall Air defence system.

If they go the route of PAK-FA, then PAF needs to look beyond the blk-52 etc., however with the MKI threat, a combination of blk 52, blk 15 MLU are a very good deterrent. Its kind of good to know that even JF-17 is being evaluated for AESA/IRST options currently. So all in all, I think by 2011, PAF would be ready to fight the future wars with pretty decent and current technologies.

The PAF air marshall recent interview is available and I am going to post it here---and you and Keyesersoze will owe me an open apology on this board.

I will owe you an apology for coming across as rude and you already have that from me , on the issue of PAF not being able to understand/absorb/induct, I think you can already see my point about that above.

 

[fatman17]

just as a side-bar to this very interesting discussion. do we know how many PAF pilots have logged 1,000 hrs on the vipers. 1,000 hrs would be considered as 8 years of experience. PAF likes its pilots to log 120 flying hrs a year.

 

[blain2]

just as a side-bar to this very interesting discussion. do we know how many PAF pilots have logged 1,000 hrs on the vipers. 1,000 hrs would be considered as 8 years of experience. PAF likes its pilots to log 120 flying hrs a year.

PAF logs 180 hours/year/pilot (Source CAS, PAF as per JDW in 2005 - See excerpt below). Let me see how many Viper pilots have more than 1K hours on the type. The # of pilots is not with me and will not be up to date but lets see what we can gather.

PAKISTAN - PLUGGING THE GAPS
Robert Karniol JDW's Asia-Pacific Editor
Bangkok

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) lost an average of nine aircraft annually through attrition over the period 2000-03, but this has halved over the past two years. "We enhanced our flying," explained Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat, the chief of air staff. While acting as PAF chief of operations ACM Kaleem launched an initiative to reduce losses due to pilot error. He spoke to Jane's shortly before his retirement on 20 March, when Air Marshal Tanveer Ahmad Khan assumed the top post.

"In 2000, our flying per pilot was in the region of nine hours per month. We have progressively taken this up to 15 hours, or 15 sorties," he said, adding that the figure has now stabilised.

This expansion of flying hours is paralleled by increasingly complex exercises. These include the introduction of surface effects in dissimilar air combat training exercises and intensified operations. The latter saw one air base generate 175 sorties in a day during a trial, for example, while the PAF as a whole flew 8,000 sorties of various types in a month during the September 2005 Exercise 'High Mark'.

Here is a partial list of PAF Viper pilots with 1K or more hours:

F-16.net :: F-16 Pilot Hours

 

[fatman17]

Here is a partial list of PAF Viper pilots with 1K or more hours:

F-16.net :: F-16 Pilot Hours

Thanks - next question. how many of these senior PAF pilots have now retired?

 

[blain2]

Thanks - next question. how many of these senior PAF pilots have now retired?

That is too hard to keep track off. Of the names on the list, some have already passed away, some have retired while others are active.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi guys,

How are you doing today? You people remind me of 30 years ago, when I was a 20 years old kid-------Anyway, your arguments or discussions with me is totally different than the reaction I am seeking.

Here is what I am getting from this discussion---you are trying to protect the status quo of the PAF----whereas I am stating that there have been major blunders committed by the politicians regarding the cancellation of the mirage 2000 in the early 90's.

Next thing I am getting from your discussion is that it is perfectly alright for a nation like pakistan to have less equipment-----like in the early 90's barely 30 F 16's ready for battle, aging F 6 and F 7 fleet, mirage 3 and 5 and A 5's which could barely compete with the enemy and having less equipment is ok and not a big problem and we can cover up this lack of equipment by giving out vague examples. So, accordingly, it is ok to have inferior equipment, it is fine to be at loggerheads with the enemy under those conditions, go about in having two other wars with our neighbour and when the oppurtunity came to have have better equipment available, the politicians fell into a trap of deceit set by the indians.

How can anyone justify that the purchase fo Mirage 2000 would not have done anything to the PAF for the roughly 14years period till now----how is it possible for anyone with any common sense and understanding of the air superiority in present day warfare to say that it was no big deal.

You kids really amaze me at your thinking process about pakistan's defence procurement-----when pakistan decided to purchase the mirage 2000 in the early 90's, indian air force and indians had a massive heart attack-----they thought that they were doomed again----barely had they managed their air superiority over PAF and it was about to dissipate into thin air. So, what to do next----that is where the indian intelligence agencies came to their resuce--and what a resuce they performed----kill the snake in a way that nobody gets blamed either. It was decided to tarnish the purchasing process and bring such misgivings and rumours into the procurement with huge amounts of commissions being paid to negotiators specially to Mr 10 percent ASIF ZARDARI.

What a master stroke of genius by the indian agencies----the pakistanis fell on their own sword and chopped off their own hand, the indian air force lives happily there after maybe for another fifteen years. The indian air force was celebrating again for the second time within 5 years of the coupe de grace and may pakistani brethrens are clueless about the sword that has been struck deep into our hearts.

Next issue is that of grippen----it is amazing that you guys are arguing with me--the air marshall has clearly stated that the plane is beyond the abilities of the PAF----plain and simple like day light----what differnce does it make if the pilots can fly the plane---all pilots can fly all planes in a given time---but common sense must be used to understand that it takes more than that to maintain and manage an air group. Here, again, the air marshall is saying something and people are clueless to understand that it is beyond our abilities. Plain and simple----let us move ahead. But no----how can this be said about PAF pilots----they are supermen.

So, what is there to not understand that currently, PAF does not have the capability of managing the grippen. That is why we did not buy them.

Now, last but not the least----the most important part of my post was the last part----being prepared for todays battles is being ready yesterady---buying yesterday what we need to fight with today-----and here the most shocking part of this debate is that most of the pakistanis have absolutely no comprehension what that means.

Understand and acknowledge your shortcomings today and start building upon it and you will be ready and prepared for your tomorrow.

In 1983, at Hill AFB, out of the whole batch of pakistani pilots, there was only one pakistani pilot who could compete with and beat most of the top well trained american counterparts. There were pilots from other nations as well training on the F 16's----but pakistanis had superiority over the others----and it is not what most of you might thinkkk-----PAF piltos are superior to anyone-----NO---it was their superior ability to speak and understand english that made them learn to fly and manage and maintain the F 16 better than other flyers and crew from other nations by a margin of 6 months to a year.

One last thing---the example about south african air force accomodating grippens---is a very bad example----south africa is a rich first world category nation---pakistan is still a third world country which has certain limitations in adapting revolutionary all out technology at all levels in the air force.

 

[su-47]

Hi guys,

One last thing---the example about south african air force accomodating grippens---is a very bad example----south africa is a rich first world category nation---pakistan is still a third world country which has certain limitations in adapting revolutionary all out technology at all levels in the air force.

SA aint a rich 1st world country. SA is an example of contrast of rich and poor. SA has beautiful cities and dilapilated villages. But the rest of the world only sees the cities. You'll understand if u have lived in SA as I have. Its not 3rd world, but definitely not a rich country.

Anyway, SA got gripens coz SA Airforce had been upgrading their infrastructure and tehnological capability for years before the Gripens were acquired. If PAF starts upgrading today, they'll be able to acquire gripens the next decade or so.

 

[niaz]

Hi guys,

How are you doing today? You people remind me of 30 years ago, when I was a 20 years old kid-------Anyway, your arguments or discussions with me is totally different than the reaction I am seeking.

Here is what I am getting from this discussion---you are trying to protect the status quo of the PAF----whereas I am stating that there have been major blunders committed by the politicians regarding the cancellation of the mirage 2000 in the early 90's.

Next thing I am getting from your discussion is that it is perfectly alright for a nation like pakistan to have less equipment-----like in the early 90's barely 30 F 16's ready for battle, aging F 6 and F 7 fleet, mirage 3 and 5 and A 5's which could barely compete with the enemy and having less equipment is ok and not a big problem and we can cover up this lack of equipment by giving out vague examples. So, accordingly, it is ok to have inferior equipment, it is fine to be at loggerheads with the enemy under those conditions, go about in having two other wars with our neighbour and when the oppurtunity came to have have better equipment available, the politicians fell into a trap of deceit set by the indians.

How can anyone justify that the purchase fo Mirage 2000 would not have done anything to the PAF for the roughly 14years period till now----how is it possible for anyone with any common sense and understanding of the air superiority in present day warfare to say that it was no big deal.

You kids really amaze me at your thinking process about pakistan's defence procurement-----when pakistan decided to purchase the mirage 2000 in the early 90's, indian air force and indians had a massive heart attack-----they thought that they were doomed again----barely had they managed their air superiority over PAF and it was about to dissipate into thin air. So, what to do next----that is where the indian intelligence agencies came to their resuce--and what a resuce they performed----kill the snake in a way that nobody gets blamed either. It was decided to tarnish the purchasing process and bring such misgivings and rumours into the procurement with huge amounts of commissions being paid to negotiators specially to Mr 10 percent ASIF ZARDARI.

What a master stroke of genius by the indian agencies----the pakistanis fell on their own sword and chopped off their own hand, the indian air force lives happily there after maybe for another fifteen years. The indian air force was celebrating again for the second time within 5 years of the coupe de grace and may pakistani brethrens are clueless about the sword that has been struck deep into our hearts.

Next issue is that of grippen----it is amazing that you guys are arguing with me--the air marshall has clearly stated that the plane is beyond the abilities of the PAF----plain and simple like day light----what differnce does it make if the pilots can fly the plane---all pilots can fly all planes in a given time---but common sense must be used to understand that it takes more than that to maintain and manage an air group. Here, again, the air marshall is saying something and people are clueless to understand that it is beyond our abilities. Plain and simple----let us move ahead. But no----how can this be said about PAF pilots----they are supermen.

So, what is there to not understand that currently, PAF does not have the capability of managing the grippen. That is why we did not buy them.

Now, last but not the least----the most important part of my post was the last part----being prepared for todays battles is being ready yesterady---buying yesterday what we need to fight with today-----and here the most shocking part of this debate is that most of the pakistanis have absolutely no comprehension what that means.

Understand and acknowledge your shortcomings today and start building upon it and you will be ready and prepared for your tomorrow.

In 1983, at Hill AFB, out of the whole batch of pakistani pilots, there was only one pakistani pilot who could compete with and beat most of the top well trained american counterparts. There were pilots from other nations as well training on the F 16's----but pakistanis had superiority over the others----and it is not what most of you might thinkkk-----PAF piltos are superior to anyone-----NO---it was their superior ability to speak and understand english that made them learn to fly and manage and maintain the F 16 better than other flyers and crew from other nations by a margin of 6 months to a year.

One last thing---the example about south african air force accomodating grippens---is a very bad example----south africa is a rich first world category nation---pakistan is still a third world country which has certain limitations in adapting revolutionary all out technology at all levels in the air force.

What I understood from one of the senior PAF officers, now retired, that Mirage 2000 was costing us nearly $85-million dollars per plane and that was in the 1990's!!. One of the reasons was rumoured to be that Asif Zardari wanted $10-million per plane commission paid in advance ( similar to the infamous Agusta 90 submarine deal) French simply included the money in the price, added risk factor and time value for money. This however made the Mirage 2000 too expensive for PAF.