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UK troops under threat as Pakistan forces Taliban out

EagleEyes

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UK troops under threat as Pakistan forces Taliban out
Christina Lamb and Tim Albone, Kabul

[URL="http://images.thetimes.co.uk/images/trans.gif"][/URL]PAKISTAN has forced hundreds of Taliban militants across the border with Afghanistan into Helmand province where they are preparing for attacks on British forces, the provincial governor said this weekend.

The governor, Engineer Mohammed Daoud, said the move was also intended to ensure that Pakistan could rebut mounting claims that its forces are providing the militants with training and shelter.

“We have intelligence reports that hundreds and hundreds of Taliban who have been in Pakistan for the last four years have now moved into the province and are gathering in the mountains,” said Daoud.

“The Pakistanis are forcing them to move inside Afghanistan to fool the British and the international community that the problem is here and not their side.”
His claims came as Helmand, where 2,000 British soldiers are already based, yesterday saw a further outbreak of violence at the end of a week of bloodshed that has left more than 200 people dead.

The heaviest fighting in Afghanistan since the Taliban fell more than four years ago has prompted fears of a turbulent summer ahead for the British troops. The full deployment of 3,300 will be in place by the end of next month.
In yesterday’s attack a 20-vehicle Afghan military convoy was ambushed in Sangeen by heavily armed Taliban, setting off a gun battle in which at least 15 Taliban and four soldiers were reported to have been killed.

It followed a Taliban attack on the town of Musa Qala earlier in the week in which 200 militants were said to have died along with 25 police and soldiers.
“We’re seeing a big upsurge in Taliban activity,” Daoud told The Sunday Times. “We know they have a major plan to re-establish the old mujaheddin bases in northern Helmand used during the Soviet occupation from which to launch attacks on the British.

“At night they are gathering all the local villagers and inciting them to participate in holy war against the infidels,” he added. “People are coming to me asking for security.”

There have been questions within Afghanistan about why the British forces did not go to the aid of Afghan police when they came under fire in Musa Qala. Both British camps in Helmand were less than 120 miles away.

The governor said he was furious at the lack of support from the coalition forces and revealed that he had pleaded for help but the British and Americans had refused to believe his reports. “We wanted air support because when the Taliban hear planes they run away but the British told me their aircraft were engaged elsewhere and according to their regulations can only come to support when their own men are on the ground.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-2189888,00.html
 
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I dont see why they should have any problem with it. If Pakistan is mobilizing its forces to get "them" they are running away to the other side, and going to a more strategic location is not Pakistans fault. Give us more helicopters, may be we will be able to just finish them as they get into Afghanistan.
 
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hunderds and hunderds :lol: how funny it is when the Afghan governer said that becuase first of all there never had been hundreds of hundreds Al-qaeda people on Pak side they were hadfull of who had been either captured or killed while few dozens not hunderds are there attacking the PA. Now if PA had flushed them out than what the NATO forces and Afghan Army is doing there cant they handdle them??
 
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Are they Taliban or just a local dispute to which the local big boss wanted some superior firepower to settle the issue once and for all.
 
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Field Marshal said:
hunderds and hunderds :lol: how funny it is when the Afghan governer said that becuase first of all there never had been hundreds of hundreds Al-qaeda people on Pak side they were hadfull of who had been either captured or killed while few dozens not hunderds are there attacking the PA. Now if PA had flushed them out than what the NATO forces and Afghan Army is doing there cant they handdle them??

They are fighting for their existence, they have a strong belief in God and Jihad. Its hard to fight with them, even though they have inferior training and weapons. Morale is the word what we are talking about here. :sniper:
 
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In the strategic sense, a motivated force is extremely hard to kill. However, once you bring it down to the tactical level, it all boils down to whose more determined and better at killing.

A man, no matter how much he believes in God, is still a man and he bleeds just as good or just as bad as anyone else.

Genghis Khan had no use for Islam and even extreme fanatics were no match for his killing machines. He's most infamous order in Afghanistan. Each one of his soldiers in his army in Afghanistan on the pain of death was to collect 300 heads each.
 
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Pakistan has 90,00 troops in NWFP and FATA. These areas are a part of Pakistan and the people are Pakistanis.

The US and Allies Forces are 40,000 in Afghanistan and they are in alien lands and have very little understanding of the Pashtun ways.

If Pakistan cannot have total control of its own people in NWFP and FATA, which is way smaller in size than Afghanistan, how can the US or its Allies control a country the size of Afghanistan with the woefully meagre forces they have in their command there?
 
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Before Afghan can police themselves they'll have to solve ethnic issues.
Even today Afghanistan is politically devided, who's going to police whom?
 
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Salim said:
Pakistan has 90,00 troops in NWFP and FATA. These areas are a part of Pakistan and the people are Pakistanis.

The US and Allies Forces are 40,000 in Afghanistan and they are in alien lands and have very little understanding of the Pashtun ways.

If Pakistan cannot have total control of its own people in NWFP and FATA, which is way smaller in size than Afghanistan, how can the US or its Allies control a country the size of Afghanistan with the woefully meagre forces they have in their command there?

Pakistan can control its people very well. It is the rugged nature of the landscape that makes securing every nook impossible and so foriegn elements end up using that to their advantage. Locals who have had little development are nowadays more driven by the desire to make a quick buck than any ideological similarities with the foreign elements, to offer them hospitality for a high price which the foreign elements pay up with little qualm.

Pakistan has repeatedly offered fencing and mining the border to effectively 'reduce' (if not entirely eliminate) 'infiltration' and 'exfiltration' but to this day, Afghanistan refuses.

It is an irony that the 'coalition' of the defenders of freedom and democracy are actually the ones with the least interest in securing Afghanistan's borders (which is one major factor contributing to the size of the meagre forces they have on the ground). Surely if Afghanistan had billions of oil barrels per day to offer, 'allied' soldiers would be swarming the landscape!
 
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Sid said:
Pakistan has repeatedly offered fencing and mining the border to effectively 'reduce' (if not entirely eliminate) 'infiltration' and 'exfiltration' but to this day, Afghanistan refuses.

I dont think mushraff or any pakistani cares for what karzai says or thinks.So why is that his refusal has stopped pakistan.

And also why does pakistan need afghani permission to mine its side of the border and putting up a fence?
 
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Well first of all Pakistan does not want to get blamed for any unilateral action (already Afghan authorities blame Pakistan for everything as that is the easiest scapegoat for them) along the int'l border even though Afghan government's rule hardly extends beyond a few main cities in their country, so to speak.

Secondly, what I read in a recent BBC report makes sense. It went something like this, 'Since its birth, Pakistan has upheld the Durand Line agreement with Afghanistan that had existed since British India's time but recently Afghanistan has become uncomfortable with the agreement. Therefore, Islamabad does not necessarily feel inclined to 'respect' a border, which Afghanistan does not even want to recognize.'
 
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Sid said:
Pakistan can control its people very well. It is the rugged nature of the landscape that makes securing every nook impossible and so foriegn elements end up using that to their advantage. Locals who have had little development are nowadays more driven by the desire to make a quick buck than any ideological similarities with the foreign elements, to offer them hospitality for a high price which the foreign elements pay up with little qualm.

Say what you want. That is not true. If you all can claim incompetence of the Indian Army in Kargil, then this does not gel (jell)!

Rugged terrain or not, it is possible to check on these elements. Check the BBC reporter's view on this subject where the Taliban support was evident in towns during the cease fire and the total absence of the military might there, who used the ceasefire to fortify their bunkers instead!

I agree with you that everyone is keen to make a quick buck. Of that there is no doubt!

Pakistan has repeatedly offered fencing and mining the border to effectively 'reduce' (if not entirely eliminate) 'infiltration' and 'exfiltration' but to this day, Afghanistan refuses.

It is convenient for you not to understand the reason for the same.

Afghanistan is building a case not to recognise the Durand Line and therefore they want to state that they don't recognise the borders as Pakistan wishes them to believe it is.

Unfortunately for Pakistan, Pakistan is in a bind. China is her best friend and China refuses to recognise the Durand Line since they claim it is "an unequal treaty". If it is an "unequal treaty", it suits Afghanistan since they have a claim for Paktoonistan, a land comprising of the Pashtun areas of Afghanistan and Pakistan (the map I have cannot be put here since it is beyond the limitations of the board stipulations for images). So, if there is a Pakhtoonistan, then there is no NWFP, FATA and parts of Balochistan! And not withstanding what you wish to state, in Balochistan there is a raging insurrection, or else the Pakistani forces would not be using air and artillery! :shocked:

It is an irony that the 'coalition' of the defenders of freedom and democracy are actually the ones with the least interest in securing Afghanistan's borders (which is one major factor contributing to the size of the meagre forces they have on the ground). Surely if Afghanistan had billions of oil barrels per day to offer, 'allied' soldiers would be swarming the landscape!

Because of the reasons I have given above. They want FATA and Balochistan in their pocket! ;) TAP line is then through!:chilli:

And watch your spellings. "Foreign" and not " foriegn"!

I am sure you did that to check if I was on my guard!
 
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Salim said:
Say what you want. That is not true. If you all can claim incompetence of the Indian Army in Kargil, then this does not gel (jell)!

Rugged terrain or not, it is possible to check on these elements. Check the BBC reporter's view on this subject where the Taliban support was evident in towns during the cease fire and the total absence of the military might there, who used the ceasefire to fortify their bunkers instead!

Not to get involved in a numbers game but there is a difference between a 80,000 strong force (most of which are light-armed paramilitaries) for a 1610 mile border and surrounding region; and a 300,000 force (conservative rough estimate) for IOK.

It is convenient for you not to understand the reason for the same.

Afghanistan is building a case not to recognise the Durand Line and therefore they want to state that they don't recognise the borders as Pakistan wishes them to believe it is.

Unfortunately for Pakistan, Pakistan is in a bind. China is her best friend and China refuses to recognise the Durand Line since they claim it is "an unequal treaty". If it is an "unequal treaty", it suits Afghanistan since they have a claim for Paktoonistan, a land comprising of the Pashtun areas of Afghanistan and Pakistan (the map I have cannot be put here since it is beyond the limitations of the board stipulations for images). So, if there is a Pakhtoonistan, then there is no NWFP, FATA and parts of Balochistan! And not withstanding what you wish to state, in Balochistan there is a raging insurrection, or else the Pakistani forces would not be using air and artillery! :shocked:

Well, as far as present day International Law is concerned, neither China nor any other country can do anything about the Durand Line (unless Pakistan and Afghanistan reach a new bilateral agreement). Here's an interesting read:

Afghanistan's "loya jirga" of 1949 declared the Durand Line invalid as they saw it as 'ex parte' on their side (since British India ceased to exist in 1947 with the independence of Pakistan). This had no tangible effect as there has never been a move to enforce such a declaration. Additionally, world courts have universally upheld uti possidetis juris, i.e, binding bilateral agreements with or between colonial powers are "passed down" to successor independent states, as with most of Africa. A unilateral declaration by one party has no effect; boundary changes must be made bilaterally. Thus, the Durand Line boundary remains in effect today as the international boundary and is recognized as such by nearly all nations. Despite pervasive internet rumors to the contrary, U.S. Dept. of State and the British Foreign Commonwealth Office documents and spokespersons have recently confirmed that the Durand Line, like virtually all international boundaries, has no expiration date, nor is their any mention of such in any Durand Line documents. (The 1921 treaty expiration refers only to the 1921 agreements.)

So now, you can keep on wishing for Pakhtoonistan and this 'tan' and that 'tan' but I'm sure, a reality check is good once in a while.
 
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And about the 'raging' insurrection in Balochistan; its unfortunate for you to know this but the situation is very well under control and scores of families from various tribes are presently returning to their native lands as I write this due to the improved situation there.

Time is near when the renegade sardars would be isolated from the mainstream Balochi people (in fact, it has already begun).
 
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