U.S. Payments To Pakistan Face New Scrutiny

[S-2]

"If push comes to shove---would america say the same thing to the israelis as well."

Pulling aid from Israel would be like killing the golden goose. The ROI is through the roof. Of course we wouldn't say the same thing.

They've been a really helpful, generous, grateful, and productive ally.

 

[moha199]

Very well said bro. But some people will not get it. For them Might is right so they will put a blind eye and keep this talk up so nothing to say more.

S 2,

Afghanistan is destabilized not because of pakistan but because what the u s forces have not been able to do. I clearly remember like day light the arrogance and cockiness of american generals and soldiers before going into afghanistan---the good old owboy with his six shooters packed on the side ready to call the afghan out---well the problem is major---for the first time they are also facing the merchants of death---people who have no sense of living for a better tomorrow---.

Pakistan had no qualms with afghan pushtuns---this war was with al qaeda---for reasons better known to itself the u s let the al qaeda leadership walk out of afghanistan intact---the very reason for their attack---after all that pomp and romp---the al qaeda literally walked out of afghanistan's mountains---inadvertantly the u s made this misery land on our soil.

Truthfully, pakistan need to stop the use of pakistani space for letting the operations continue in afghanistan. They have been carried on for too long and too many afghanis have died during the u s armies occupation of afghanistan and there is no end in sight.

First it was the taking down of al qaeda---which was a fraud, a lie and a deceit---then it switched to hunting taliban---then it switched onto the war against terror----so many different faces---so many different spins---so many different lies and still not enough troops on the ground to seal the pak-afghan border---the number one millitary force in the world---lead by third rate generals and third rate commanding officers---if a day came that these generals and that army had to face the enemy one on one, with similiar equipment, there would be no stopping the rout from afghanistan to the mainland homeland---.

So, S 2 get off your cocky horse that you have been riding on this pakistani board and smell the dust---your super star millitary has been pumelled by these stone age warriors with stone age equipment---the failures of your millitary are known all around the world on all the millitary bases of every nation---your millitary and its generals are the butt of all the jokes regarding their incompetence world wide---even though they fear the wrath of your millitary might, but that doesnot stop them. You know humility makes you human---it brings you down from the throne of the Gods to the stone cold earth---Rummy found it---the high and the mighty---his feet never touched the ground---his arrogance knew no ending---his rhetoric had no limits---where is he now---in the graveyard of afghanistan and iraqi defeat---Tommy Franks---ohn Abizaid and the Guy with the hispanic name---where are these cocks of the walk---they don't even want to show their faces in shame of their career ending defeats---they don't even come on public forums---yeah the hispanic general made a statement---and the media ripped him apart---where were you when the war was happening---why did you shut your mouth at that time---oh he was waiting for his retirement and retirement benefits---the great american warrior---what a shameful ending---I mean to say only one general commanding out of four had the ballz to say that no there are not enough troops to do the job---one out of four---that is a sad time in u s history---please tell your children about this shameful time in u s history---when not only its politicians were liars but the commanding generals one after the others---three of them in a row lied to the public and lied to the world and lied to themsleves to save their pensions and retirements---it was a shameful day for them that none of them had the courage to stand upto the tyrant Rummy.

So, S 2---milltary intelligence---don't threaten us here---if you can take your business elsewhere---do so---it might happen as well that the elected govt may say BYE BYE no more millitary assistance to the u s army in afghanistan---well after all they are democratically elected---they can do the same as turkey did in the begining of 2nd gulf war. There is no threat of war on pakistan---u s economy is in shambles---.

Pakistan never had a duplicitous fence sitting attitude till they found out the u s army was not committed to do the task at hand---pakistan didnot have that attitude till they found out that the u s had lied to invade afghanistan and iraq---pakistan didnot have that atitude till they found out that the u s was an occupying force who wanted to set up a bases in afghanistan---pakistan didnot have that problem till they found out that u s wanted to stay put---pakistan could not believe its eyes and ears when they saw on tv u s forces letting the al qaeda escape from a trap---not one time---not two times---but three times or more---. Fooled once---fooled twice---fooled the third time---shame shame shame on us---. The only place left for theu s is to pack up and leave----it will only happen when the american media will take the censorship of itself---.

Now, readers don't get me wrong---I am no fan of taliban---I would have them neutralized sooner than later----but the job should have been done and completed with many ayears ago---all the killing and destruction should have been finished in the first two years.

All this would have been completed with success if your incompetent millitary planners had done the job right at hand---instead of having right wing christian extremist who talk to god and sometimes god talks to them as well---if you had some atheist in the planning of the war, things might have been different---surrounded the alqaeda at tora bora, instead of wham and bam---they could have had soldiers on the ground---but no---we americans warriors were playing SISSY at that time---we didn't want our pretty soldiers get messy in the business of death and mutilitation---pretty in pink---we don't want them to get dirty---what a joke---we let the killer of 3100 americans escape---because we didnot want 100 american soldiers killed at tora bora---do you still punish your general staff---do you still have executions by a firing squad---some of your generals needed it real bad---.

S 2---I don't know what you are talking on this board---but if my millitary had been pummelled by such a third rate and ill euipped army of rag tags---That general should have swallowed the .45 calibre that he was packing on his hip. But als---shame and honour is for honourable generals---generals who are trying to save their retiremenst and pensions are not in that category.

 

[moha199]

Dear S2. Dude iam also an American but i will agree with masterkhan that our armed forces are not that great. We have lost all the wars we have faught but angain but we have gaind most of the objectives. Thing is we play a dirty game least we need this war for some reasons that you might not see since you are x army guy and brain washed but we need this war and we need Pakistan for that aswell. We lost veitnam war, gulf 1,gulf2 we are loosing badly. No matter what we say we are winning this was the asnwer is no we are not. We are alone slowly by slowly the world is learning how to counter us and one day this mighty will not be so mighty ( not that i want this but our top guys are stupid enough to play like this) As off Pakistani defence forces are concerned and their abilities. I would say they are fighting with their own people, on their own soil, and with their own religous people but we are not, so they would have some odd situations like surrendering and so and so on. But over all we are loosing it and we should get back home. We should try someother way to win the world. ( to my Pakistani brothers iam also Pakistani but american at the same time but i will be on the right side)

"If push comes to shove---would america say the same thing to the israelis as well."

Pulling aid from Israel would be like killing the golden goose. The ROI is through the roof. Of course we wouldn't say the same thing.

They've been a really helpful, generous, grateful, and productive ally.

 

[fatman17]

[B
blain2, MastanKhan's derisive comments aside, infantry platoons of the U.S. Army are living daily with pashtus in the mountains along the border. That's how they're posted. You might be surprised how well we understand the tribal networks in the area, the taliban, and A.Q. (including the Uzbeks). I frankly doubt that your troops live remotely like ours-with the villagers. We understand tribal considerations of the pashtu.

Wow! the arrogance of it all.

 

[roadrunner]

^^Lol, that was indeed a stupid comment (by S-2). The Americans don't know anything about the tribal networks. They're fed bs by the Northern Alliance government from one side (bad mouthing the Pashtuns), and the Pashtuns on the other (who don't trust the Americans).

And Americans aren't living side-by side within Pashtun communities. That much is certain.

 

[Spring Onion]

blain2, MastanKhan's derisive comments aside, infantry platoons of the U.S. Army are living daily with pashtus in the mountains along the border. That's how they're posted.I frankly doubt that your troops live remotely like ours-with the villagers. We understand tribal considerations of the pashtu.

Oh so that is the reason we here in Bara Market of Peshawar are easily finding millitary accessories of US soldiers in Afghanistan being sold.

You might be surprised how well we understand the tribal networks in the area, the taliban, and A.Q. (including the Uzbeks).

Thats why you fail to dismantle them despite so many years being there.

If so why most of your allies are refusing to send more troops ??

 

[blain2]

Conditions define the level of required support/assistance. It's reasonable to assume that we define our need (or lack therein) by the conditions imposed.

Evidently, we don't need the services at the risk of being unable to account for these "reimbursements". If audits of billed services is onerous and/or overtly insulting, the services should be denied to America. It is then to America to ameliorate the requirements and beg foregiveness or accept the absence of this support. It's clear that audits indicate we question the services actually rendered and are prepared to do without if need be.


We would be fine with it. Audit it but the turn around would be something that both sides would want to fix. As a taxpayer, you should be concerned about where your money goes and we should be concerned if this money is worth it for Pakistan to do what its being asked to do. That would be a fair arrangement for both sides.


blain2, MastanKhan's derisive comments aside, infantry platoons of the U.S. Army are living daily with pashtus in the mountains along the border. That's how they're posted. You might be surprised how well we understand the tribal networks in the area, the taliban, and A.Q. (including the Uzbeks). I frankly doubt that your troops live remotely like ours-with the villagers. We understand tribal considerations of the pashtu.

You might think that your living with Pashtuns daily gives you a better insight than most (and it does), but not more than Pakistani formations operating in the areas. A vast number of Pakistani troops and even officers come from these same areas. Even the Mehsud tribe has considerable number of troops and officers in the Army. So while its good that you are operating in the area and living amongst Pashtuns of the area (we actually were the first ones to introduce the US Special Forces to this area starting off in 1954-1964), its still not the same as being one of them. Its like me suggesting that I live in Texas so I understand Texans. I may never. The reason this fight is so difficult for the Pakistani troops is for the above reasons. There are family, tribal and blood linkages between the Pakistani operators and the tribals. Thus Pakistani government prefers diplomacy over military operations. As I have said before, unlike the US and ISAF detachments in the area, Pakistan has to live with these tribals for eternity. We can't burn all of our bridges because some in the US believe that all these folks need to be sorted out.

We also understand that Pakistani citizens reflect the interest of their gov't in two critical ways. Support of pan-pashtu tribal sentiment is a concern of the Pakistani government-taliban or no taliban. Pakistan has always felt comfortable deflecting these pan-pashtu aspirations westward into Afghanistan. Second, this deflection coupled with covert assistance by the ISI created the latest incarnation of this manifest goal- the taliban.

S2, the interests of Pakistan and the US converged during the time of Taliban's inception. You may want to read "Taliban" by Ahmed Rashid to understand what it was that both Pakistan and US were trying to do with the Taliban in Afghanistan. To lay the blame on ISI's door for the creation of Taliban is in turn a misunderstanding of yours and of most outsiders.

What's clear to me on this board is the following-

blain2, you're a lucid and reasonable person-most of the time however this comment by you reveals much. Karzai, of course, is pashtu and President. Numero uno. From what I can determine here, he's simply not the RIGHT pashtu president. Is this correct? It seems that the pristine standards of leadership ascribed to by the members of this board have found Karzai's tribal lineage tainted by hints of opium.

Imagine that! Yup. None of that elsewhere among the Pashtus, I'm sure. Let's face it. Removing the taliban from Afghanistan's government has caused much gnashing of teeth among members here. Perhaps you too. There's no way, then, that any present leader of Afghanistan would have the support of many Pakistani citizens.

S2, its not support for Taliban. Pakistan would do well without such obscurantist mindsets. I shiver at the thought of these semi-literate people coming to me and telling me how to mind my business. Nobody in Pakistan wants this. However the issue is that Karzai has a very limited Pashtun base in the Afghan government. This does not represent Afghanistan's Pashtun demographics and this sidelining of Pashtuns in Afghanistan poses problems for Pakistan's own Pashtun population (concerns somewhat similar to how Turkey, Syria and Iraqis have about Kurds). You ignore the Pashtuns for long and pretty soon they will start asking for a country of their own (which is not in the interest of either Pakistan or Afghanistan).



The Brits are clumsy fools. Their actions recently in both Kandahar and Musa Qala are both pathetic and laughable. The taliban "governor" of Musa Qala couldn't deliver any of his "forces" on the ascribed day of liberation/battle. Nope. He stayed back with twenty or so guys and awaited the all-clear. I'm not impressed.

Kandahar was worse. Semple and Patterson exceeded their briefs in an amazingly naive "rogue" operation to replicate the al-Anbar "Awakening". Look. The idea is fine. Most understand that separating the pashtu from the taliban IS the name of the game. But it's not a "touchy-feely" nice-nice. Few understand al-Anbar and these diplo-fools didn't bother to ask any U.S. army expert who did. We have a few actually. H.R. McMaster kicked things off in al-Anbar at Tal Afar with his 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment.

It involved a lot-of everything. Heavy-duty combat operations that whacked the snot of A.Q. groups and any/every bad-*** who raised a rifle. The HAND OF GOD descended like a fist. Once security was grabbed, it had to be held. Aid HAD to arrive like magic, be dynamic, and IMPRESS that we were serious.

Hiring locals who might have been your enemy an hour ago sounds really NICE and SENSITIVE too. But there's a quid pro quo. Retina-scans and finger-prints so if you get rounded up next week in a fire-fight, we'll know that you're playing both sides. This holds tribal leaders accountable for the men they offer as CLCs (concerned local citizens).

Sorry. I digress. Patterson and Semple did none of this. Nor did they try to position the Afghan gov't for success. I was stunned and hardly impressed by the naivete behind their attempt.

Excellent points and maybe something that needs to be replicated in FATA. The bottom line is things that you have mentiond, understanding the dynamics of the area, backing up military operations (which cannot be pushed on in isolation) with key things such as what you have stated "Aid HAD to arrive like magic, be dynamic, and IMPRESS that we were serious."

So I am not suggesting that all pressure be lifted. Military pressure as in Anbar was applied in phases. Beyond that a lot of public affairs work needs to be done.

blain2, I sadly believe that most here wish for a pashtu-dominated Afghan gov't under the thumb of Pakistan. Most here aren't seriously interested in an inclusive electoral process arising in Afghanistan. Should Pashtus attain dominance at the expense of the rest of Afghanistan, that would be a positive outcome.


Yes Pakistani security apparatus has been infatuated with the idea of a Pakistani dominated Afghanistan led by Pashtuns for the past many years and this has actually hurt us. The hope is that the new government will look at things a bit differently. The new provincial government in NWFP (as much as they hate this name) will be more open to an alternate arrangement with Afghanistan (Karzai and the ANP click really well) with ANP being on the other side of the pole than the Taliban in NWFP. So I think things actually look promising.

Oddly then, it's the Pakistanis who have little concern about taliban/pashtu separation. Where pashtu dominance of Afghanistan expressed through taliban rule as before, most here would happily accede. Why, I'm unsure. Clearly, Pakistan found that it's control of the taliban government in Afghanistan was tenuous at best once before and embarassing as an open association.

I disagree. I think after the first spell of the Taliban rule, nobody in the Pakistani mainstream wants these folks back in power. They have had a massively negative impact on Pakistan's own internal security and after spilling blood in Swat and FATA fighting the same folks, the Army would not be in any mood to push for a similar type of proxy authority as the Taliban were for Pakistan (and in turn the US initially).

Still, I suppose that's better than the N.A. I've learned since coming here that the KEY problem with them is India's patronage. That explains much to this simple westerner.

Few here wish for Pakistan to be in flames, particularly at the hands of A.Q. or Mehsud's taliban. The gap, however, of popularity ascends upward dramatically when discussing the AFGHAN taliban and Hekmatyr, Omar, Gulbuddin. Pakistanis see a favorable difference, oddly enough.

NA has to get over its own insecurities from the days of Masood (Panjsheri) with regards to Pakistan. Pakistan did make some mistakes but the other side needs to realize that their annoying of Pakistan will also yield no positive results. Eventually both the NA and Pakistan have to re-build the lost trust. That is the only way something agreeable will emerge.

Overall great points from your perspective. I think after a long time I have seen some indepth views of an outsider with regards to the situation in the tribal and Afghan areas.

Also, excuse the nasty formatting of the post. Will clean it up later.

 

[S-2]

Interesting comments and excellent points. I'll reply later in more detail. Thanks.

 

[MastanKhan]

S 2,

I have great regards for the u s millitary---it is just with the planners that the issues are. I have problem with the time it has taken to do the job. I have problem with letting the criminals get away, many a times when they were right in the cross hairs.

 

[S-2]

I wrote a long reply but it's pointless. The list of mistakes my nation has made in Iraq and Afghanistan are as long as our four arms. To some extent, that will continue. It's the nature of things.

Still, our institutions are beginning to adjust to the new emerging realities. I know that the U.S. Army's training base and educational institutions are fully immersed in drawing useful lessons from these conflicts. You may not have noticed but most professional officers in our army have seen dramatic positive improvements in the way we fight since 2005.

Contrary to widespread disbelief here, I know for a fact that U.S. infantry platoons live by themselves in outposts right in the heart of these mountain villages. Anybody here on this board who read the article about "Into The Valley of Death" in the Karangal valley just across the border received a detailed accounting of how 30 guys led by a 24 year old 2nd Lieutenant from Pennsylvania do their thing 24-7. They're just infantry (airborne). Not special forces. Not CIA. Just guys. The film footage accompaning that story reveals even more about their lives and the conditions underwhich they exist. It ain't the Hilton.

"I have problem with the time it has taken to do the job."

Historical evidence of successful counter-insurgencies indicate a LOOOONG time. America has done so herself and conveniently forgotten many well-earned lessons from the Phillippines at the turn of the 20th Century. For different reasons neither Afghanistan nor Iraq promise any happy ending soon. It's possible, though, to begin generating a momentum where tomorrow is a tiny bit better than today. In fact, it's the only realistic positive outcome for which we can plan.

These things end with a whimper, not a bang. Done right, it seems the public conscience slowly loses awareness of the insurgency's pervasive grip until it simply...isn't (poof !)

"I have problem with letting the criminals get away, many a times when they were right in the cross hairs."

I do too. OBL going across at Tora Bora in December 2001 is a sore spot for all of us. The rumors that he was just missed by Aussie SAS who were directed off his trail persist. Clearly, using local tribes at the time wasn't a good idea and/or poorly planned/supervised. Though he's my enemy, I don't worry about him personally. Not any longer.

A.Q. is a virtual franchise that's successfully transcended beyond OBL. Not much, mind you, but it's moved on as a marketing logo independant of his death or continued survival. In fact, I've speculated that he's possibly outliving his uselfulness and may better serve his ambitions as martyred at some point. I don't know.

 

[S-2]

"You might be surprised how well we understand the tribal networks in the area, the taliban, and A.Q. (including the Uzbeks). I frankly doubt that your troops live remotely like ours-with the villagers. We understand tribal considerations of the pashtu."- S-2

Wow! the arrogance of it all."- Fatman 17

"And Americans aren't living side-by side within Pashtun communities. That much is certain."- Roadrunner

You may recall this thread by Agnostic Muslim-

Into the Valley of Death

Read the article by VANITY FAIR.

There is literally a ton of ******** video out there of our guys, especially in the Korengal valley of Kunar Province. Most of these platoons are living by themselves in simple stone huts surrounded by villages and locals. Once in, they only move by foot patrol. There's a documentary of a platoon on a sixteen month deployment into Kunar. We learn quite a bit about our patch of the woods. We've also learned how to pass that accumulated knowledge on to the next guy. Many of our troops now have multiple tours in this specific area.

Correct me if wrong but don't your F.C. and regular army stay in formal military cantonments and foreign legion style, imposing frontier forts? Barracks and facilities from which they sally forth on large sweeps through SWAT, for instance and then return to base. That's what I understand and suppose it's o.k. as you've local police who probably really know the turf.

I'm certain that neither of you know just how much effort our military forces and intelligence services devote to learning about tribal structures throughout the middle east or conducting COIN operations in these regions. At this point we've some very well-versed and grounded perspectives. We're really quite immersed in tribal cultural ethnology these days and find the subject fascinating and are always looking to learn more.

Anyway, there's little arrogance to my view. We've had much to learn and little time to do so, which doesn't afford opportunity for preening. We're far ahead of the game there compared to our NATO peers and have surprised both Afghani and Iraqis with our perspectives.

 

[blain2]

S-2,

Take a look at this opinion piece by a fairly well renowned and respected Parsi/Zorastrian MP of Pakistan. Also look at the part in bold specifically. This is the sentiment due to the costs already paid by Pakistan in this GWOT. There is plenty of self-introspection in this opinion piece as well...I think fairly well representative of what most of the educated Pakistani patriots are thinking now a days:

A cruel destiny



Saturday, February 23, 2008
M P Bhandara

It's a cruel destiny. The 'bashaoor awam' of Pakistan have given their support to parties headed by a person who was convicted of hijacking a plane and to another accused of being involved in major scandals and facing trial in Switzerland. Fair is foul and foul is fair, in the murky politics of Pakistan. It's a cruel destiny that the previous chief justice of the Supreme Court is under detention, that sixty judges of our superior courts have either been sacked or have resigned since the constitutional tsunami of November 3 and in the process the much mauled Constitution of 1973, savaged again.

It's a cruel destiny that our leading contenders for power, habitually promise 'roti, kapra aur makan' to the masses and have acquired sumptuous palaces and Millionaire Row flats in England, Pakistan and other parts of the world, carefully hidden behind clever legal shelters. That the last government passed a so-called 'National Reconciliation Ordinance (NRO) to withdraw corruption cases against the self-made politician millionaires or billionaires, in the so-called "national interest." It entitles every thief in jail to be set free on grounds of equity.

It's a cruel destiny that vital decisions concerning our sovereignty are taken in the corridors of Washington (including the notorious NRO). It is also a cruel destiny that the state has been under direct military or a military guided political rule for the major part of our existence. A sad commentary that our 'democracy-loving' politicians once in office have often proved to be worse dictators than military rulers (remember Dalai Concentration Camp, the Federal Security Force of ZAB for political opponents and the physical storming of the Supreme Court during the Sharif tenure?), besides being incompetent, corrupt and whimsical (the 'democratic' decade of the 1990s being the lowest ever for economic growth).

Since 1958, politics has been a game of musical chairs between the army and the politicians. When the nation gets fed up with the ineptitude, corruption and in-fighting of the politicians, the army is welcomed with roses; and after a decade or so of power it is perceived to be a bed of thorns, at which point the virtues of democracy are invariably re-discovered.

Now, at the start of a fresh round of political rule, let the newcomers focus on national priorities and not on pelf and power. In my view, our highest priority is to arrest the erosion of our sovereignty. Our sovereignty has been eroded by a porous border with Afghanistan for years. There is a free-for-all traffic of people, guns, narcotics and extremist ideas. Local terrorism is an out-growth of the US occupation of Afghanistan. We suffer the backlash of this occupation due to our support for US war aims. The borderland Pakhtuns have been radicalized, as never before. The toleration of a porous border over the years has created an invisible 'de facto' Pakhtun state in parts of Pakistan and Afghanistan. The movement of people and goods must be regulated as is the case between Iran and Afghanistan.

The major assault on our sovereignty comes from Washington. Much propaganda has been made by US politicians of ten billion dollars of aid flowing into Pakistan since 2002. Nearly six billion dollars are dues on account of "services" rendered by us to the US-NATO war effort in Afghanistan. These "services" have given birth to terrorism in our country; it has pitted the Pakhtuns of FATA against the state of Pakistan. The current civil war in FATA is financed by the opium crop harvested annually in Afghanistan. The US owes an explanation for the mega increase in narcotic production, when over 50,000 US-NATO troops occupy Afghanistan.

Better to eat grass as a self-respecting state than be dependent on the handouts from America. The answer to the terrorism in Pakistan is to cut our "services" to the US occupation of Afghanistan. This will almost certainly dry the roots of the civil war/terrorism, besides restoring our faded sovereignty. Our role in our backyard should be of an interlocutor. The trade-off is between the benefits of the American connection, which are increasingly marginal, and the rising costs of alienating our tribal people.

The 21st century has profoundly changed the concept of war and peace in South Asia. The emerging role of the armed forces is more to safeguard the state from implosion from within than guarding frontiers, which are in any case protected by international law. In large parts of Asia today national armies are employed against ethnic or religious sub-nationalisms whose main weapon is terror. Today, sub-nationalism confronts the Indian army in the Kashmir Valley, and in its northeast in Sri Lanka against the LTTE, in Pakistan against the Baloch and Pakhtun nationalists; in Myanmar against ethnic tribals who virtually rule the north and in Thailand against Muslim nationalists. China, largely composed of a single ethnic group, does not face sub-nationalism but does experience ethnic alienation in Tibet and Chinese Turkistan. The exception to the rule is Nepal where the struggle is ideological.

In this evolving concept of war (and peace), inventories and training of an entirely new order are needed to combat terrorism. The India-Pakistan paradigm has also changed with this concept. The new war is subtle, psychological and economic power-oriented. By 2030, India is likely to be an economic giant which will suppress sub-nationalism by a rising prosperity and a middle class of about 700 million persons. Unless we can achieve a high GDP growth of around eight in our poorest regions, such as FATA, sub-nationalism will weaken the state.

Locals should decide for themselves the pace and values of economic development. For this we need peace and to keep well out of other people's wars. Given this regional scenario, the question arises what combination of forces is best suited to resolve our offended sovereignty. No matter what combination of parties forms the new government, for all practical purposes, the incoming civilian government must avoid a confrontational attitude towards the army and the president. President Musharraf has delivered on his promise of free and fair elections, which were certainly the freest and fairest since the elections of 1970. His role should be measured not by the events of the last twelve months but the span after 9/11. An impartial balance-sheet will show that the positives far outweigh the negatives especially compared to the glorious 'democratic' decade of the 1990s.

We need a vision – for development, not vendetta.

 

[MastanKhan]

S 2,

Imagine texas is in a revolt---Why don't you take your millitary through the plains of texas and let me see how many of your white brethren and little white boys and little white girls and white women can your soldiers in uniform slaughter put a bullet through---would you put a bullet through their heads, or through their chests---would your troops put a bullet through their little faces---right between their chubby little noses---I don't think most of the white troops would be able to shoot their own.

Now imagine if it was next door mexico---I am pretty sure your boys would love to have a go at those blo-dy mexi cans---would you slaughter them to bits---absolutely---rip them apart---tear them to pieces.

It is iraq---an american soldier notices a blooming 14 years old girl---he is extremely horny---he plans with his guys---thyey come back at a later time---kill her family members right in front of her face---then rape her in front of dead parents---dead little brothers and dead little sisters---all dead family---they gang rape her---and then they kill her as well---good old american boys---having some good old time fun---weren't they set free by the millitary kangaroo court---how many other cases like that---hundreds maybe thousands of them---even Rummy told the congress that he cannot allow the pictures and videos of rape and molestation be revealed to the public---it will raise a large hue and cry---.

5 years of learning is too long a time for the u s . A million muslims killed in iraq under your watch---1/2 million killed in afghanistan under your watch---thousand of women and girls raped in iraq---too high a price to pay for your learning experience---.

Even though at times I am thoughtful with their laying down their arms, but overall I am not concerned---we can't kill our people all the time and we won't allow you to do that either. Our new govt doesn't seem to be heading that way. Possibly Musharraf is going to be out of the office pretty soon.

Pakistan needs to start talking on the world forum---we have given too much time to the u s ---enough is enough---you are a failure---go home now---stop killing our people---you have not been able to complete the job in 5 plus years---what makes you think that you can do it in the next 5 years.

Your reasoning of american troops assimilating with the afghans is a farce---.

 

[S-2]

Thanks for the interesting representation. If accurate, please reject providing services and withdraw from the WoT. Renounce military and civilian aid. Nothing there can be logically argued by America should that be the determined desire of the GoP.

Mr. Bhandara, of course, neglects to obligate the Pakistani government to securing it's borders from taliban moving into Afghanistan from sanctuary within Pakistan. That would be part of successfully asserting Pakistani sovereignty. Failing to do could be construed as harboring those making war upon the sovereign government of Afghanistan and its allies.

That might entail war, I imagine, as you'd assume the full burden of responsibility for preventing such operations from your nation's territory. Granted, you've little practical control over vast swaths of nominally Pakistani land, but that's not Afghanistan's responsibility. Pakistan can ignore Afghanistan's war if it chooses, as Mr. Bhandara recommends, but Pakistan cannot ignore it's contributions to that war.

I like it, though. Improving your economy as a nat'l priority over a large army would be huge. Reconfiguring your army into a better-trained, more agile, COIN-oriented force makes sense in light of the practical diminished threat from India. Your threat IS within. Mr. Bhandara may not be correct in his general assertion of S. Asian armies for internal control but it might be quite specifically accurate in Pakistan's case.

 

[S-2]

We fought a bloody civil war.

You're a racist.

We haven't killed a million muslims in Iraq. We haven't raped thousands of their women. We haven't killed half-million Afghanis. These are lies. Not half truths. Lies. You appear to have dangerous emotional issues.

Did you take your medicine? You should. You seem upset and unbalanced-again.

MastanKhan, I think you and I are done. I won't reply to this sad drivel or any other from you. In fact, I'm out of here. I can see A.M., Neo, and perhaps others elsewhere.

Too many of you here are dangerous to yourselves and your nation. If you represent the best, God help all of you.