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Timeline Gujarat 2002

Let's re-visit this.

Let me be clear on it - It was not about you, Joe. It is about the whole setup/section of society/political parties which/who turns blind eye for one crime and turns extra vigilant on other.

Right, I accept first of all that this is not about me. So what did you actually write? Let's take a look at that.

Then Sir, why is it the case the "1984 riots" are not spoken about with the same passion/zeal as "2002 riots"!!

Not spoke about by whom? These were spoken about with fierce commitment by me, was what I intended to convey.

I am not suggesting use of one riot as a counter to other argument but the point is - supporters of secularism/justice would have been better served if they had given/asked/enforced the same justice long back. Why the bias?

They asked. Believe me, they asked.

It was not in their hands then, as it is not now, to 'give' justice; nor to enforce justice. For that matter, nobody can enforce justice; only the judiciary and the administration working in concert can.

What bias is it that you are talking about? That liberals didn't ask for punishment of the guilty? Not true. Watch Amu, a film made by Shonali Bose. Shonali has gold standard liberal credentials; she is the daughter of the eldest of three sisters; the next sister is Binny, Brinda Karat (she acts in Amu), and the youngest is Radha, married to Prannoy Roy. This is just an example; we got nowhere with our protests, but I hope you don't think that this should be a reason for not protesting the next time around.

I also understand your anger, but how will the victims of 1984 riots be served justice by punishing 2002 rioters? Why not push for actions against Tytler, Sajjan Kumar etc?

Tell me how you got the impression that we - I? - are not pushing for action against Tytler, Sajjan Kumar and the others (Bhagat is dead, and may he burn in hell).

Is it because there is no thread on the Congress in PDF, to which people can write expressing their disgust with the Congress?



But the cases of 1984 riots and other riots are not closed yet. To the mockery of Justice, the eye-witnesses in the riots were all forced out of India and to this day they fear stepping foot in India. I am surprised the evolving civil society failed to make notice of that. My guess then is that our society is evolving on as required basis or rather should I say - on what suit them today basis!!

That kind of sarcasm is ill-suited to you, unless you have yourself moved against these crimes. We have; I have. And even now, my views on this are crystal clear. And if anybody were to write a column praising Tytler, for instance, you may expect me to be there.

I was not talking about you, Sir.

Why, thank you very much. I might have sounded hostile or defensive, but that is entirely due to this subject of ethnic-hating riots being too horrific to permit prose about it to reach any kind of elegance.

I am not as knowledgeable as you Sir but as younger to you, I have my rights to ask questions and you have the rights to correct me, if I am wrong!!

With respect, I have no right, and claim no right other than that of expressing my point of view, and opposing any other point of view that seemed to need to be opposed. But it is a principle of mine never to say no to a request for information.

The CBI is not free to take up any investigation in the states, without the consent of that state.

How would I know? I was not in Ahmadabad or even in Gujarat when the riots happen. I will believe it if the court of law holds that position. Please correct me if this is proven in court already because as of today I am not aware of it.
 
You will have noticed that I am treading on egg-shells discussing this with you.

I can sense that.

You are wrong again, sadly. Individual Congressmen behaving like beasts and the Congress Party encouraging such a pogrom are two different things.

Both have happened in the past. Many times. E.g. in the 1965 Gujarat riots, 5000 Muslims were killed. They went on for days altogether and they started over a small incident. Much smaller than the one that caused the one in 2002. The annual rioting in Gujarat (some say it was bimonthly) was not without Congress' wink and nudge, you can be sure of that.

Congress is a past master of exploiting religion. This gives me no pleasure to write. Whether it is the Congress, BJP or any party, they are all Indian. Anyone doing this is wrong and paints India in a bad light.

About the extract, is it your conclusion that Teesta Setalvad is (a) a Congress party worker; (b) a Hinduphobic person; (c) a BJP hater; (d) an Islamophile; (e) in it for the fame and publicity?

Why, @Vinod2070, why?

Some of them won't necessarily be negative attributes for me as you would perhaps imagine. I just think she is milking it for the donations that she is getting from many quarters and the Congress angle can't be ruled out either.

Anyway, this is a fact that she is being selective and economical with facts.

Massacres? In Hyderabad? I am truly surprised to hear this. Where and when? You are not referring to the original Majlis-e-Ittehadul Muslimeen of the Nizam's period, I hope?

Can you expand on that remark?

Yes. The Owaisis are from the same ******* ideology of Qasim Razvi. No one can deny that. They are the vilest criminals and are allowed to control a whole city because of the vote bank politics of the Congress that has created so many problems in the country. This whole "secular" and "communal" drama that is the mainstream now.

Even the likes of owaisis accuse others of being communal!

Picture6.jpg


Muslim Razakars pose with captured Hindu civilians before killing them in cold blood (Telangana, 1948)
 
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There is a lot of misunderstanding about the nature of his crime. Even about whether or not it was a crime. He helped criminals, not by committing the crime together with them, but by allowing them to get away with it, by not preventing them. These are not hanging offences. But his being brought to book, even for a one week sentence, is what will suffice for us, not a hanging.

Joe I think this needs to be put in perspective rather than stated as an absolute statement. Correct me but you are making two assertions on Modi. 1) Not able to prevent the riots 2) Not doing enough as an administrator to stop people from rioting.

Now as far as prevention of riots are concerned I won't comment on that since only we have a luxury of looking things retrospectively. Even then as per SIT there were steps taken that atleast tried calm the atmosphere after Godhra train burning. E.g. SIT says that Bodies were not paraded. Something the media lied about. If some individual did it in his neighborhood you can't really blame Modi for that can you.

Regarding the second point of not doing enough administratively I think that is a fair comment. And totally agree that Administratively a lot more should have been done. But then that is a fault of the System as a whole.

As far as the investigations are concerned I will rather trust the Supreme Court monitored SIT run by a person having a great track record than the totally biased media and acrimonious riot victims. And I don't blame the victims since if I was in their place I would be equally acrimonious against the State and people who I think have committed crimes against my family and people. But that doesn't mean all my accusations are facts. Facts are established by putting together proofs that includes individual statements (that are corroborated with other individuals), paper trail, electronic trial etc. and the only one who has the complete picture is the SIT and courts and not the individual victims.

The fact is that our system is absolutely lazy, corrupt and insensitive. Then how can we forget all that and expect Modi's system to become absolutely efficient on 27th February. My problem with the whole thing is that no body is trying look at the core problem which is that this whole Police and Administrative system is fucked up as far as crisis situation is concerned. This needs a total overhaul. Instead of learning from what went wrong in the System and taking corrective measures the media and politicians have gone on a witch hunt against an individual. The Secularists have been baying for Modi's head as if once he is hanged all riots of this country will magically stop and everyone will live happily ever after. Sadly that will not happen.
 
Tu quoque again? How many times do you need to be told that two wrongs don't make a right? Why are you not responding to questions about what went wrong, instead of pointing out other things that went wrong elsewhere?

Sir, the point being made was slightly subtler. What was being alluded to was the inability of closed minds to deal with contrary facts. These are the types that need blasphemy laws.

In India too we have our own blasphemy laws, and our own secularist Taliban, as people like Maulana Vastanvi, former VC of Deoband, have discovered rather painfully.
 
Justice will only be served when Modi the mass murdering rapist is awarded the death penalty and hanged upside down for crimes against humanity.

The only sane and good indian on this forum!
 

It is a one-sided report relying on the allegations of known Modi-baiters like Sreekumar. It makes no effort to seek any response from the other side.

The said records have already been investigated. The Gujarat government made all efforts to control the situation, as the Manushi report shows.

http://www.manushi.in/articles.php?articleId=1688
 
An older article from Manushi -
----------------------

Biased Criticism Backfires
Anti-Modi Crusaders Run their Rabid Campaigns Blindfolded

Author(s) : Madhu Purnima Kishwar

The systematic demonisation of Narendra Modi in the media began with Medha Patkar's Narmada Bachao Andolan. Though Patkar has played a historic role in raising awareness about the plight of villagers whose lands are arbitrarily taken away for mega dams and "development projects", she did an incalculable harm to her own cause by overstating her case, especially with regard to resettlement operations of dam oustees in Gujarat. It projected Modi government in particular and all Gujaratis in general as intrinsically demonic forces that were out to decimate the "poor tribals".

But when I went to Gujarat to do a small reality check first hand, I was appalled at the wide gap between the NBA propaganda and the reality on the ground. There was serious mismatch between the NBA critique of Modi and the reality of resettlement in Gujarat. That gave me the first glimpse of the power of Modi the doer, an able administrator capable of delivering what he promised. He took up the challenge posed by NBA in all seriousness and provided the first of its kind rehabilitation anywhere in India. That is why dam oustees voted with their feet and abandoned the NBA plank. I hope to tell that story another time. But from then on, Modi became the most favoured hate object of leftists, liberals, feminists, radicals, environmentalists et al.

However, the Gujarat riots of 2002 converted Modi bashing into an extremely rewarding career advancement strategy for media persons, NGO activists, academics and sundry intellectuals. Conversely, you are condemned to lifelong perdition, treated as a political and intellectual outcast subject to unending vilification campaigns starting with being labelled a fascist if you dare say one word either in defence of Modi or suggest a bit of caution to Modi bashers.

As the Congress party seems on decline there is increasing desperation in the air for all those who have survived on the Party's patronage. The possibility of Modi emerging as a winner has put them in panic. That is why the media in general and TV anchors in particular have gone so overboard in demonizing Modi that even people like me who have been consistent critics of BJP feel revolted enough to say: "This has gone too far. Please don't manipulate us beyond our tolerance limit."

We would be guilty of the worst form of intellectual cowardice if we kept quiet now. Let me illustrate why I say this from examining some of the key charges against Modi.

Riot After Riot

The most unforgivable crime attributed to Modi is that he orchestrated the "ethnic cleansing" of Muslims in 2002. He is alleged to be a man with a fascist mindset with Muslims of Gujarat supposedly living as an endangered minority in perpetual fear and insecurity. Interestingly this charge is most loudly and aggressively levelled by NGO activists who have received massive support-financial material and political form the Congress party and its governments as well as powerful international donor agencies.

As far as riots, communal massacres and divisive politics is concerned, no party in India dares match the track record of Congress party in post independence years. It starts with gross mishandling of Kashmir through rigged elections, installing puppet regimes and then misusing the army to deal with the resulting popular discontent and disaffection. The result is for all to see-tens of thousands of killings and 'disappearance' of Kashmiri Muslims, near total cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits from the valley, and permanent regional and communal polarisation in the state.

The Khalistan wave in Punjab was also a creation of the Congress party through propping up Bhindranwale with a view to wresting control of resource rich gurudwaras and Punjab Assembly from the Akali Dal. The same foolish formula was applied in Sri Lanka by propping up the murderous LTTE which exacerbated ethnic strife leading to endless massacres total brutalisation and marginalisation of Tamils in Sri Lanka.

Even with regard to Muslims, the riots politically orchestrated by the Congress in Jamshedpur, Bhiwandi, Bhagalpur, Hyderabad, Bokaro, Meerut, Malliana, Mumbai, Nellie and a host of other towns and cities as well as the most recent riots in Assam-all under Congress rule are not forgotten by the Muslim community which has stopped being a captive vote bank of the Congress.

Media collaborates with the Congress party in trying to make the country forget that the guilty of all these massacres have not been punished.

Gujarat itself was a tinderbox since the 1960s ever exploding into communal and caste riots after Indira Gandhi assumed power at the centre and Gujarat was ruled by her hand-picked chief ministers. Congress not only sowed the seeds of communal discord but also harvested several bloody crops from those poisonous seeds. The killings in 1969 and 1985 were on much larger scale and the violence lasted far longer than in 2002. By contrast BJP tried harvesting only one crop-that too in collaboration with the Congress party. The difference is the Congress party has not learnt any lessons whereas Modi became far wiser from the blunder of 2002.

Those pillorying Modi for 2002, display total amnesia over the fact that Congressmen and women had gleefully joined VHP/BJP goons in the 2002 massacre as well. It has consistently projected 2002 riots as a one way massacre of Muslims by Hindus. But as per figures given by the Congress party's minister of state for home Shri Prakash Jaiswal on 11 May 2005 in Parliament, those killed included 790 Muslims and 254 Hindus while 223 persons were reported missing. But anti- Modi brigade routinely overstates the case by talking of "thousands of Muslims" being butchered without every acknowledging Hindu casualties. Nor is the death of 59 Hindus burnt to death at Godhra railway station ever treated with the same seriousness. In fact, many among the Modi-bashers brazenly allege that the Godhra train massacre was a VHP/BJP conspiracy, even though several known Congressmen have been convicted by the courts for that mass murder.

Compare 2002 Ahmedabad to 1984 anti Sikh riots in Delhi. Over 3000 Sikhs were butchered in Delhi alone, with thousands more in different towns and cities of north India. The anti-Sikh massacre of 1984 saw Congressmen lead killer-mobs who gang raped Sikh women, looted and burnt innumerable Sikh homes and properties, and roasted alive thousands of Sikh men in broad day light with the police merrily assisting the gangsters. Not a single Hindu rioter died at the hands of Sikhs or in police firing. The massacre was not confined to Delhi. Similar mode of butchery took place in several north Indian cities and towns. Uncounted Sikhs were pulled out of trains and set on fire. For three long days and nights the police either stood and watched the fun or actively assisted hired assassins. No Hindu homes were burnt in retaliatory violence by Sikhs. No Hindu had to go and live in refugee camps. But in Ahmedabad, thousands of Hindus, a large number of them Dalits, had to take shelter in refugee camps. There were several instances of Muslim attacks on Hindu homes and shops. 34 Muslims have been sentenced by courts in Gujarat. But this is never mentioned even in passing in media discussion on 2002.

Numerous Congressmen have been indicted by courts and sent to jail, not only for their role in the Godhra train massacre but also in subsequent riots in Ahmedabad and other cities. However, there is studied silence in the media when Congressmen are indicted for the violence. But indictment of BJP leaders is gloated over for days on end.

I seriously believe that the dubious role of the Congress party in Gujarat riots needs to be thoroughly investigated by an independent credible agency. There is far more to it than has come out thus far because of media complicity.

Is Gujarat Development Not Inclusive?

Another charge repeated over and over again is that Modi's model of development is not "inclusive". Firstly, this implies that development in Congress ruled states is "inclusive" when we are witnessing daily exposes of the Congress party -promoting crony capitalism and indulging in unashamed loot of public money and natural resources.

During the run up to the Gujarat Assembly elections, national TV channels vied with each other to convince us that rural Gujarat is reeling under water scarcity, crop failures, droughts anti-farmer policies of the Modi government, especially with regard to tribal areas. Compare this to the information provided to me by Chairman of the National Commission for Agricultural Costs and Prices - Dr Ashok Gulati - among the most knowledgeable and respected farm policy experts in India, appointed to this post by none other than Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.

I quote from an interview he gave me in January 2012.

"While in large parts of India agriculture is in deep crisis and growing at 2% per annum, the rate of growth in Gujarat has been over 10%. A major factor for this consistent growth is the efficiency and speed with which Gujarat government has worked to spread irrigation. The check dam movement started by a religious leader in Gujarat has been carried forward in a determined manner by Modi's government. He got all manners of civil society organisations as well as village and caste panchayats involved in building 120,000 check dams. He also started the Khet Talawadi programme for creating a pond in every field. He told the farmers, I will give you funds under NREGA to build a pond on your farm if you earmark 5% of your land for this purpose. As a result of this mass participation in recharging groundwater, Gujarat is the only state in the country where water table is rising while it is fast depleting in most other states of India."

While in other states, NREGA has created major distortions in the farm sector, made farm labour scarce and farming non-viable, in Gujarat it has given major boost to farm sector through careful targeted use of NREGA funds for improving productivity of individual farms instead of siphoning off funds through corrupt means.

Moreover, Gujarat government is providing 90% subsidy for drip irrigation in order to being about efficient water utilisation. This too has spread fast because of proactive approach of Gujarat government. As a result even in water scarce tribal areas farmers are harvesting three crops a year.

Modi has invested Rs 1200 crores for reforming the power sector under the Jyoti Gram program. No more free power with strong measures in place against power theft. But every household, rural and urban, is provided 24x7 power supply. The farmers are assured 8 hour supply for irrigation at pre announced timings. He has separated domestic lines from those going to farms and invested in technology to stop power thefts. Power subsidy is actually going down in Gujarat while its availability has increased manifold. Gujarat is actually selling surplus power to other states. No other state of India has succeeded in such far reaching power sector reforms. If this is not inclusive development, what is? Does one hear one good word in the media on this account?

Modi's government has built the best roads in the country-not just Expressways but even rural roads are far better than in most other states. This enhances connectivity of farmers with marketing and purchase of inputs. Any acknowledgement from compulsive Modi bashers that this is a hallmark of inclusive development? I haven't heard any yet.

Ashok Gulati also provided a vivid description of how every year in the lean months of May-June, Modi, with his entire official team, plus leading scientists of agricultural institutes of Gujarat, along with private companies involved in farm technologies, tours each of the 18000 plus villages of the state. This brings the highest echelons of the government as well as latest agricultural scientists with their latest quality seeds and technologies to the farmers' doorstep. This too is an important reason why agriculture is prospering in Gujarat but languishing in most other states of India.

Dairy farming in Gujarat has always been a strong point. This is witnessing further growth thanks to better road connectivity, water availability and spread of economic prosperity. Gulati also explains that Bt Cotton has produced an economic miracle in Gujarat. Cotton yields have gone up by 80% in Gujarat while pesticide consumption has come down dramatically. Gujarat government made it easy for its farmers to access high yielding sturdy seeds whereas the UPA government under pressure from ill-informed NGOs is putting all manners of hurdles in farmers acquiring better seeds. As per Gulati's estimates, Bt cotton has created a Rs 10,000 cr export potential per year. However, in Maharashtra Bt cotton is comparatively less successful; it has even led to farmer suicides and economic distress. This is because over 50% of the cotton crop area in Gujarat is irrigated while Vidarbha is growing cotton with less than 5% area under irrigation. Bt cotton can't grow without assured irrigation. If this is not inclusive development, what is?

Are Gujarati Muslims Endangered Minority?

Even the Prime Minister of India joins the unholy chorus and tells Muslims in Gujarat that they are unsafe in this state, unless they vote Congress back to power. Such irresponsible statements are expected from NGOs playing to international galleries who fund and support them but coming from national media or the PM of India, it is a shocker. Apart from other considerations, does he realize how much legitimacy such falsehoods lend to ****** terrorists of Pakistan?

How safe Muslims are in Congress ruled states became evident during the recent communal massacres in Assam when lakhs were uprooted from their villages and forced to take shelter in make shift refugee camps. Muslims of Kashmir don't think that Congress-NC rule has brought safety and security to them. The kid glove treatment and patronage Shiv Sainiks and MNS get in Congress ruled Maharashtra is not the surest recipe for Muslim wellbeing. That Bal Thackeray himself was propped up by Congressmen to finish the communists and trade-unions in Bombay or that Raj Thackeray gets soft-treatment because his MNS is seen as a spoiler that divides the ant-Congress vote in Maharashtra, thus helping Congress electorally, is of course never mentioned in media discourse. One can list endless such examples. Have Sonia Gandhi or Rahul ever been taken to task on this account?

Even the highly partisan Sachar committee report provides concrete evidence that Muslims of Gujarat are doing far better than Muslims of Congress or Left ruled states in matters of education, jobs, business opportunities as well as crime-free environment. Recently, the Times of India reported that Gujarat with a 9 % Muslim population has 10% Muslim personnel in its police stations. No other state matches this figure. If this is not proof of inclusive governance, what is? Not a single TV channel thought this vital piece of information worth 5 minutes discussion even though it belies the myth of systematic discrimination against Muslims.

The demonisation of Modi is so compulsive and thorough that no matter what he does, the media throws muck at him. If he undertakes Sadbhavna Yatra to reach out to Muslims, he is berated for tokenism. If he is flocked by Muslims, if prominent Muslims join BJP or endorse his politics, he is accused of empty tokenism while those Muslims are attacked as traitors. I did not see one newspaper or TV channel give the slightest bit of importance to 120 Muslims winning zilla parishad elections as BJP candidates in the recent most elections to local bodies. But if Modi does not field any Muslim candidates for Assembly elections he is castigated, ridiculed for days on end by secular intellectuals and TV anchors

Modi's biggest contribution is the marginalisation of VHP and the RSS and their divisive agendas. He consistently addresses six crore Gujaratis, this includes all minorities. In fact, in this election VHP lumpen and RSS have provided foot soldiers for Congress candidates. The open alliance of VHP, RSS with the Congress party against Modi itself testifies that Modi has risen above divisive agendas and come to occupy centre stage. It is for "secularists" to say what implications it has for the Congress party.

Apart from the fact that Gujarat has had no riot, no retaliatory violence since 2002, not even when ****** bombs exploded in Surat in 2008, Gujarat has far lower crime rate than most other states of India. Industry is flourishing because of social peace and stability.

Today Muslims of Gujarat are clearly scripting a new role for themselves and a new equation not just with Modi but also those who want to keep scratching their wounds and encashing their real and imaginary vulnerabilities. They are letting the world know that they can speak for themselves and manage their affairs without the help of manipulative mediators.

-------

First published by Outlook India (see link: The Kettle Hits Back | Madhu Purnima Kishwar)
 
I can sense that.

Both have happened in the past. Many times. E.g. in the 1965 Gujarat riots, 5000 Muslims were killed. They went on for days altogether and they started over a small incident. Much smaller than the one that caused the one in 2002. The annual rioting in Gujarat (some say it was bimonthly) was not without Congress' wink and nudge, you can be sure of that.

If this is not retaliation on a grand scale, what else can one call it? I am referring to your conflation of individual Congressmen being involved with the possibility that the Congress sponsored these riots, or the possibility that would make this a parallel of the one under discussion: that the Congress actively encouraged ethnic cleansing and obstructed the state apparatus from functioning as it should. Perhaps this is a compelling blind alley that had to be taken; being confronted with the behaviour of the government, it is only possible to mount a defence by deflecting criticism to individual rioters, and it is only possible to deflect a consequent criticism of the Sangh Parivar's role in contributing the bulk of the rioters by implicating individual Congressmen. From there, it is just a step to insinuating that the Congress winked and nodded at rioting on previous occasions, and to stand on the verge of the path to declaring that this was the equivalent of telling the police and the administration to stand aloof.

An interesting thought sequence, to my mind, illustrative of the small compromises in each respect which over a body of arguments adds up to an astonishing accusation. I am not refuting it here, as the case being made is of the "When did you stop beating your wife?" type.

There is no doubt that the Congress allowed Muslim appeasement to take place as a political tool, one of the reasons why it is so widely despised. Let me give you a parallel to this imagined sequence of yours, a parallel from real life, to underline the fallacy of your arguments.

Under the same Congress rule, there were intermittent riots from 1947 onwards in West Bengal. The last major riot was in Telinipara in the 60s, in 1968, to be exact. These riots were stopped not by unleashing a pogrom by the Hindus and others against the Muslims, but by strong administrative action. They were stopped not by a veteran administrator, but by a lifelong member of the opposition who had come to power only months before. l

Marxist of the masses - Times Of India

I hope you see the parallels to your imagined world, and the stark contrasts in detail. So much for the mountebank who whines that he was new to administration when these ghastly incidents occurred. He was not new to administration; he was new to the possibility that Muslims had human rights, down to the right to life.

Congress is a past master of exploiting religion. This gives me no pleasure to write. Whether it is the Congress, BJP or any party, they are all Indian. Anyone doing this is wrong and paints India in a bad light.

I agree with this criticism, which is half the criticism that critics of the Congress such as I, but far more eminent, have levelled at it for over forty years now. But that does not lead us to the facile conclusion that this appalling defect can be set right by Modi-style pogroms.

Some of them won't necessarily be negative attributes for me as you would perhaps imagine. I just think she is milking it for the donations that she is getting from many quarters and the Congress angle can't be ruled out either.

Anyway, this is a fact that she is being selective and economical with facts.

My only (rueful) retort is that she certainly picked a hard and painful path to earning donations. Having very close people in circles close to Harsh Mander, some of the facts that come to public view as bombshells, as blaring headlines, have been matters dug out painstakingly from the cracks and gaps in a resolute defence put up by a state intent on denial. Would you like to read about it?

Take the case of the call records.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/call-records-show-probability-of-bhatts-presence-at-riot-meeting-with-modi/article2619392.ece

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2010-05-17/india/28290876_1_cjp-ips-officer-rahul-sharma-riot-victims

http://www.firstpost.com/politics/gujarat-police-records-nail-modi-govts-claims-on-riots-702916.html

Yes. The Owaisis are from the same ******* ideology of Qasim Razvi. No one can deny that. They are the vilest criminals and are allowed to control a whole city because of the vote bank politics of the Congress that has created so many problems in the country. This whole "secular" and "communal" drama that is the mainstream now.

Frankly the Owaisi family's influence on politics and on the communal situation alike are despicable. But bringing that up in this context offers a justification, however flimsy, to the pogrom of 2002.

Even the likes of owaisis accuse others of being communal!

Two wrongs still do not make a right.

The criminality of the Owaisis does not absolve the criminalities of Modi.
 
Joe I think this needs to be put in perspective rather than stated as an absolute statement. Correct me but you are making two assertions on Modi. 1) Not able to prevent the riots 2) Not doing enough as an administrator to stop people from rioting.

Now as far as prevention of riots are concerned I won't comment on that since only we have a luxury of looking things retrospectively. Even then as per SIT there were steps taken that atleast tried calm the atmosphere after Godhra train burning. E.g. SIT says that Bodies were not paraded. Something the media lied about. If some individual did it in his neighborhood you can't really blame Modi for that can you.

Think again. Look again.

I have already given the example of a similar riot-prone state, and the story of the last riot for many decades, before Mamata Bannerjee's politics of appeasement revived them last year. The administrator was as new to administration as was Modi, so Modi's plea of inexperience was an afterthought, intended for consumption by those clutching at straws for exculpatory possibilities. The policeman most concerned was a direct relative; the reporter, my senior at college.

Your supposition that parading of the bodies was an issue and that the SIT report knocked it down faithfully records the famous victory won by the SIT over a straw man. There was never any decision to 'parade' the bodies; instead, the VHP leader coordinating the action was asked to take a route that went right through the middle of Ahmedabad, from the road leading in from Godhra to the other end where the hospital was located. No, there was no parade; the SIT could correctly record that and sit back with a sense of a job well done. The trucks wound their way through the city at a funereal pace; people surrounded it and shouted slogans; the VHP, having organized it, were not exactly telling people to go home and mourn the dead. But the SIT reported, correctly, virtuously, that there was no 'parade'.
N
Regarding the second point of not doing enough administratively I think that is a fair comment. And totally agree that Administratively a lot more should have been done. But then that is a fault of the System as a whole.

People working within this system were able to achieve much. Few remember the insurgency that first made large swathes of Kolkata no-go zones for the administration and organs of the state, even the post office. This same insurgency in its second coming swept through the western districts of Bengal, and similarly sealed them off. Now, today, when I read facile generalizations, begging your pardon and without any intention of hurting your feelings, I feel disillusioned. Long ago, these battles were fought and won with a remarkable economy of effort, and with astonishing preservation of human rights: these rights were violated on more than one occasion, but in individual incidents of excess, not as state policy, indeed, contrary to declared and enforced state policy.

It was possible, dear Sir, and I have given you two examples. Examples to which I was a witness at close quarters, like all Bengalis of my generation.

Modi has no excuse.

As far as the investigations are concerned I will rather trust the Supreme Court monitored SIT run by a person having a great track record than the totally biased media and acrimonious riot victims. And I don't blame the victims since if I was in their place I would be equally acrimonious against the State and people who I think have committed crimes against my family and people. But that doesn't mean all my accusations are facts. Facts are established by putting together proofs that includes individual statements (that are corroborated with" other individuals), paper trail, electronic trial etc. and the only one who has the complete picture is the SIT and courts and not the individual victims.

It is neither the media nor the riot victims who are driving the movement to uncover the truth.
V
The fact is that our system is absolutely lazy, corrupt and insensitive. Then how can we forget all that and expect Modi's system to become absolutely efficient on 27th February. My problem with the whole thing is that no body is trying look at the core problem which is that this whole Police and Administrative system is fucked up as far as crisis situation is concerned. This needs a total overhaul. Instead of learning from what went wrong in the System and taking corrective measures the media and politicians have gone on a witch hunt against an individual. The Secularists have been baying for ModVi's head as if once he is hanged all riots of this country will magically stop and everyone will live happily ever after. Sadly that will not happen.

I am familiar with the landmark report of Dharma Vira's commission, and have always stressed police and administrative reforms as a foundation. The commission reported in damning detail all that could go wrong. No doubt about it, the system is not in good shape.

That never prevented anyone from taking effective steps in the past.

Try to understand. I do not seek the punishment of those who failed to take positive steps. I seek the punishment of those who took negative steps.
 
If this is not retaliation on a grand scale, what else can one call it? I am referring to your conflation of individual Congressmen being involved with the possibility that the Congress sponsored these riots, or the possibility that would make this a parallel of the one under discussion: that the Congress actively encouraged ethnic cleansing and obstructed the state apparatus from functioning as it should. Perhaps this is a compelling blind alley that had to be taken; being confronted with the behaviour of the government, it is only possible to mount a defence by deflecting criticism to individual rioters, and it is only possible to deflect a consequent criticism of the Sangh Parivar's role in contributing the bulk of the rioters by implicating individual Congressmen. From there, it is just a step to insinuating that the Congress winked and nodded at rioting on previous occasions, and to stand on the verge of the path to declaring that this was the equivalent of telling the police and the administration to stand aloof.

An interesting thought sequence, to my mind, illustrative of the small compromises in each respect which over a body of arguments adds up to an astonishing accusation. I am not refuting it here, as the case being made is of the "When did you stop beating your wife?" type.

There is no doubt that the Congress allowed Muslim appeasement to take place as a political tool, one of the reasons why it is so widely despised. Let me give you a parallel to this imagined sequence of yours, a parallel from real life, to underline the fallacy of your arguments.

Under the same Congress rule, there were intermittent riots from 1947 onwards in West Bengal. The last major riot was in Telinipara in the 60s, in 1968, to be exact. These riots were stopped not by unleashing a pogrom by the Hindus and others against the Muslims, but by strong administrative action. They were stopped not by a veteran administrator, but by a lifelong member of the opposition who had come to power only months before. l

Marxist of the masses - Times Of India

I hope you see the parallels to your imagined world, and the stark contrasts in detail. So much for the mountebank who whines that he was new to administration when these ghastly incidents occurred. He was not new to administration; he was new to the possibility that Muslims had human rights, down to the right to life.

I agree with this criticism, which is half the criticism that critics of the Congress such as I, but far more eminent, have levelled at it for over forty years now. But that does not lead us to the facile conclusion that this appalling defect can be set right by Modi-style pogroms.

My only (rueful) retort is that she certainly picked a hard and painful path to earning donations. Having very close people in circles close to Harsh Mander, some of the facts that come to public view as bombshells, as blaring headlines, have been matters dug out painstakingly from the cracks and gaps in a resolute defence put up by a state intent on denial. Would you like to read about it?

Take the case of the call records.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/call-records-show-probability-of-bhatts-presence-at-riot-meeting-with-modi/article2619392.ece

NGO submits call records to Gujarat riots panel - Times Of India

http://www.firstpost.com/politics/gujarat-police-records-nail-modi-govts-claims-on-riots-702916.html

Frankly the Owaisi family's influence on politics and on the communal situation alike are despicable. But bringing that up in this context offers a justification, however flimsy, to the pogrom of 2002.

Two wrongs still do not make a right.

The criminality of the Owaisis does not absolve the criminalities of Modi.

I do agree with the last part. It certainly doesn't.

Yet, the former is given a pass.

And I don't necessarily agree with reducing it all to "Modi-style pogroms" as if he was himself doing it all.

OK, why not the same moral outrage against the Mumbai riots of 1992? No one was punished for them? It was a Congress government and the administration apathy was far worse. Does that meee the criteria you are applying to 2002 or now?

No one even talks of it! Not even you.

I am not justifying the Gujarat riots here. Just pointing to the vitriol that has been unleashed on one man and one organization due to political and petty reasons, by people who have been extremely selective in their moral outrage.

My outrage is against every single atrocity against any Indian, of any affiliation, political or religious and for any motivation.

We need to work to eliminate the last single injustice for every last Indian and not be selective in applying the moral outrage. Once we do that, we lose credibility.
 
If this is not retaliation on a grand scale, what else can one call it? I am referring to your conflation of individual Congressmen being involved with the possibility that the Congress sponsored these riots, or the possibility that would make this a parallel of the one under discussion: that the Congress actively encouraged ethnic cleansing and obstructed the state apparatus from functioning as it should.

Sir, when the Congress High Command shields the butchers that perpetrated the genocide, appoints them to senior positions in the party and in the government, and makes them candidates in elections, then it is evident that the Congress as an organization, is an active supporter of the genocide.

Not difficult to understand, except for those who are willfully blind or consumed by hate.
 
Think again. Look again.

I have already given the example of a similar riot-prone state, and the story of the last riot for many decades, before Mamata Bannerjee's politics of appeasement revived them last year. The administrator was as new to administration as was Modi, so Modi's plea of inexperience was an afterthought, intended for consumption by those clutching at straws for exculpatory possibilities. The policeman most concerned was a direct relative; the reporter, my senior at college.
This is excerpt from the Times of India report you have mentioned in the earlier post. Just highlighting a couple of lines.

Our paths first crossed in a strange, distant fashion. I was trapped in my small town mohalla in Telinipara by communal riots in 1968. He was home minister of Bengal. He arrived on a duty call. He did not come to our mohalla but learnt that I had not been able to go to my college, the famed Presidency, for weeks.

The next day the police provided safe passage. Whenever the endemic and poisonous eczema of riots troubled our land he would send a message to ensure that Telinipara was safe. He rarely forgot the individual in the tumult of the crowd.

I really don't know the complete history of these riots in Bengal. I guess I was born a few decades too late to know what happend first hand. What caught my eyes in the article are two points. I may be off track here but I thought I will put them across.

This is M J Akbar's personal experience. I wonder if everyone (all victims/sufferers of riots in 1968) had the same personal touch from the home minister. I am not criticizing Jyoti Basu. He is a Statesman par excellence and very few leaders in India can match his stature. But are we expecting personal handling by Home Minister of a State for each Individual. Neither its physically possible nor desirable for a Home Minister to give individual attention to each citizen. In my eyes a life of person in a Jhuggi is as important as the life of an MP. I don't know why M J Akbar got a special attention. I hope everyone else did get the same attention as well including someone who lived on the streets. If that really happened my respects for Basu will only go higher.

Second thing that caught my eyes was that M J Akbar hadn't been to his college for weeks. Does that mean the communal riots/tentions went on for weeks. Did this mean that common people couldn't leave their homes without police escort. May be it will be good to compare that time line with Gujarat.

Your supposition that parading of the bodies was an issue and that the SIT report knocked it down faithfully records the famous victory won by the SIT over a straw man. There was never any decision to 'parade' the bodies; instead, the VHP leader coordinating the action was asked to take a route that went right through the middle of Ahmedabad, from the road leading in from Godhra to the other end where the hospital was located. No, there was no parade; the SIT could correctly record that and sit back with a sense of a job well done. The trucks wound their way through the city at a funereal pace; people surrounded it and shouted slogans; the VHP, having organized it, were not exactly telling people to go home and mourn the dead. But the SIT reported, correctly, virtuously, that there was no 'parade'.
N
I think we will just disagree here. If I start doubting every law agency in this country including one that is hand picked by Supreme Court I don't think there is any agency in this country that a citizen can trust. Neither the government nor the Judicary. The only option left for me will be to leave the country or form another one.
 
Your supposition that parading of the bodies was an issue and that the SIT report knocked it down faithfully records the famous victory won by the SIT over a straw man. There was never any decision to 'parade' the bodies; instead, the VHP leader coordinating the action was asked to take a route that went right through the middle of Ahmedabad, from the road leading in from Godhra to the other end where the hospital was located. No, there was no parade; the SIT could correctly record that and sit back with a sense of a job well done. The trucks wound their way through the city at a funereal pace; people surrounded it and shouted slogans; the VHP, having organized it, were not exactly telling people to go home and mourn the dead. But the SIT reported, correctly, virtuously, that there was no 'parade'.

Huh? The bodies were transported at 3 am to a hospital on the remote outskirts. I don't know from where you have been fed this story about slowly moving trucks surrounded by chanting crowds.
 
For all Modi Haters who say he instigated the Riots. Modi's Speech telecast live on Doordarshan on 28th February 2002

 
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I do agree with the last part. It certainly doesn't.

Yet, the former is given a pass.

And I don't necessarily agree with reducing it all to "Modi-style pogroms" as if he was himself doing it all.

OK, why not the same moral outrage against the Mumbai riots of 1992? No one was punished for them? It was a Congress government and the administration apathy was far worse. Does that meee the criteria you are applying to 2002 or now?

No one even talks of it! Not even you.

I am not justifying the Gujarat riots here. Just pointing to the vitriol that has been unleashed on one man and one organization due to political and petty reasons, by people who have been extremely selective in their moral outrage.

My outrage is against every single atrocity against any Indian, of any affiliation, political or religious and for any motivation.

We need to work to eliminate the last single injustice for every last Indian and not be selective in applying the moral outrage. Once we do that, we lose credibility.

By whom is the former given a pass? We are not talking abstractions here, we are talking about individual members of the forum, about you and I.

The same blunt rebuttal applies to your mention of the Bombay riots of 92; where was the opportunity?

The main reason why Modi attracts more negative attention than the people behind Bombay 92 or the Sikh riots of 84 is because of the frequency of hagiographic threads about Modi.

Think about it.

Nobody issues doom-filled pronouncements against Modi out of the blue. Every hostile comment that you, or other Modicrats find objectionable is in response to a fawning, sycophantic thread about how he is the best thing since the idea of sliced bread.

When was the last time, for instance, that you initiated a thread about the Sikh riots? Or even about Bombay 92?

Perhaps instead of attacking those who are critical of Modi, what is needed now is some introspection.
 

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