Therapy for Indian Members of the Forum

[Nilgiri]

We are happy with ICJ verdict that put fate of Kalbhushan completely and solely in Pakistan hands

Not if they rudely intruded on basis of breaking vienna convention and thus fully pushing for consular access + judicial review now.....there will have to be a retrial under civilian court now (given what is going to come to light further in the consular access over time now) if you are to follow ICJ directive on this...given whole legal precedent of fruits of the poisonous tree spoiling the verdict of the military court.

"Fate" of anyone, rests in the hands of the authority they are kept under. ICJ verdict has exactly 0 relevance to that being "completely and sorely" in first place. It was just regarding is it in compliance with international law under Vienna conventions that Pakistan signed and ratified? Answer was no....convention broken.

You understand other things come with consequences of that authority action.... just like FATF going on right now right?...or Reko Diq award?...i.e when you are in clear violation of international norms and laws and refuse to correct them.

Not to mention Pakistan's whole extreme push to throw the case out on basis of no jurisdiction of ICJ over the case....was thrown out. Just like India's extreme push to overturn the verdict of the trial was also denied.

But what rests in the middle ground on merit...clearly went India's way here. Consular access and a big ole opening of review now (and all that entails now in the process going on from here....under ICJ watchful eye). Given Pakistan being terrible on arguing legal merit of just about anything these days....you can watch the fun starting now.

 

[Areesh]

Not if they rudely intruded on basis of breaking vienna convention and thus fully pushing for consular access + judicial review now.....there will have to be a retrial under civilian court now (given what is going to come to light further in the consular access over time now) if you are to follow ICJ directive on this...given whole legal precedent of fruits of the poisonous tree spoiling the verdict of the military court.

"Fate" of anyone, rests in the hands of the authority they are kept under. ICJ verdict has exactly 0 relevance to that being "completely and sorely" in first place. It was just regarding is it in compliance with international law under Vienna conventions that Pakistan signed and ratified? Answer was no....convention broken.

You understand other things come with consequences of that authority action.... just like FATF going on right now right?...or Reko Diq award?...i.e when you are in clear violation of international norms and laws and refuse to correct them.

Not to mention Pakistan's whole extreme push to throw the case out on basis of no jurisdiction of ICJ over the case....was thrown out. Just like India's extreme push to overturn the verdict of the trial was also denied.

But what rests in the middle ground on merit...clearly went India's way here. Consular access and a big ole opening of review now (and all that entails now in the process going on from here....under ICJ watchful eye). Given Pakistan being terrible on arguing legal merit of just about anything these days....you can watch the fun starting now.

Surely you are high on Arnab Goswami show

Let me give you few reality checks from the verdict

I think nobody told you that Pakistan had already given right to appeal or review against his death sentence to Kalbhushan. No retrial would happen so correct yourself on that. Yeah his death sentence would be reviewed as per Pakistani law.

so there is nothing new you got on that front

As for Consular access. Yeah you got it. Big deal. But again here there is no timeline binding on Pakistan to when providing this access. In any case in the end it would matter nothing at least for India.

The best part is that ICJ has given Pakistan complete authority to execute Kalbhushan.

ICJ has clearly stated that Jhadav's death sentence cant be contested or annulled. In other words ICJ is ok with us hanging the monkey.

So you are looking too much in both review and consular access that you got today

Pakistan got the most in today's verdict. You need to admit it. It is crystal clear for anyone after all.

 

[Nilgiri]

Surely you are high on Arnab Goswami show

Let me give you few reality checks from the verdict

View attachment 569685

View attachment 569686

I think nobody told you that Pakistan had already given right to appeal or review against his death sentence to Kalbhushan. No retrial would happen so correct yourself on that. Yeah his death sentence would be reviewed as per Pakistani law.

so there is nothing new you got on that front

As for Consular access. Yeah you got it. Big deal. But again here there is no timeline binding on Pakistan to when providing this access. In any case in the end it would matter nothing at least for India.

The best part is that ICJ has given Pakistan complete authority to execute Kalbhushan

The conviction and sentence of KBY is not violation of Vienna convention and hence ICJ agrees that Pakistan can execute KBY whenever it wants to

View attachment 569687

So you are looking too much in both review and consular access that you got today

Pakistan got the most in today's verdict. You need to admit it. It is crystal clear for anyone after all.

Again when you go to neutral sources (neither Indian or Pakistani)....its quite clear who won. But you can keep self-flagellating this all you want to feel better

1. By a 15:1 majority, ICJ rejected Pakistan’s three objections to the UN court admitting India’s request.

2. By a 15:1 majority, ICJ concluded that Pakistan breached its obligations under the Vienna convention by not informing Mr Kulbhushan Sudhir Jadhav of his rights to consular access under this pact.

3. By a 15:1 majority, the world court concluded that Pakistan had breached its obligations under the Vienna convention by not informing India about the arrest “without delay”. Pakistan had taken nearly three weeks to inform New Delhi about Kulbhushan Jadhav’s arrest.

4. By a 15:1 majority, the UN court concluded that Pakistan deprived India of the right to communicate with and have access to Mr Kulbhushan Sudhir Jadhav, to visit him in detention and to arrange for his legal representation. Accordingly, the judges concluded that Pakistan had breached the obligations incumbent upon it under Article 36, paragraph 1 (a) and (c), of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations.

5. By a 15:1 majority, the ICJ ordered Pakistan “to provide, by the means of its own choosing, effective review and reconsideration of the conviction and sentence of Mr. Kulbhushan Sudhir Jadhav” as reparation for the breach of his rights.

6. By a 15:1 majority, the ICJ directed Pakistan to inform Kulbhushan Sudhir Jadhav without further delay of his rights and to provide Indian consular officers access to him in accordance with Article 36 of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations.

7. By a 15:1 majority, the ICJ declared that “a continued stay of execution constitutes an indispensable condition for the effective review and reconsideration of the conviction and sentence of Mr. Kulbhushan Sudhir Jadhav”

hence ICJ agrees that Pakistan can execute KBY whenever it wants to

LOL how dumb do you have to be seriously to say or believe this. Do you not understand what a CONTINUED STAY on execution means?

 

[Areesh]

Again when you go to neutral sources (neither Indian or Pakistani)....its quite clear who won. But you can keep self-flagellating this all you want to feel better

I go to ICJ verdict itself to see who won and I can clearly see it isn't you or your country

1. By a 15:1 majority, ICJ rejected Pakistan’s three objections to the UN court admitting India’s request.

2. By a 15:1 majority, ICJ concluded that Pakistan breached its obligations under the Vienna convention by not informing Mr Kulbhushan Sudhir Jadhav of his rights to consular access under this pact.

3. By a 15:1 majority, the world court concluded that Pakistan had breached its obligations under the Vienna convention by not informing India about the arrest “without delay”. Pakistan had taken nearly three weeks to inform New Delhi about Kulbhushan Jadhav’s arrest.

4. By a 15:1 majority, the UN court concluded that Pakistan deprived India of the right to communicate with and have access to Mr Kulbhushan Sudhir Jadhav, to visit him in detention and to arrange for his legal representation. Accordingly, the judges concluded that Pakistan had breached the obligations incumbent upon it under Article 36, paragraph 1 (a) and (c), of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations.

5. By a 15:1 majority, the ICJ ordered Pakistan “to provide, by the means of its own choosing, effective review and reconsideration of the conviction and sentence of Mr. Kulbhushan Sudhir Jadhav” as reparation for the breach of his rights.

6. By a 15:1 majority, the ICJ directed Pakistan to inform Kulbhushan Sudhir Jadhav without further delay of his rights and to provide Indian consular officers access to him in accordance with Article 36 of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations.

7. By a 15:1 majority, the ICJ declared that “a continued stay of execution constitutes an indispensable condition for the effective review and reconsideration of the conviction and sentence of Mr. Kulbhushan Sudhir Jadhav”

Cute

So for all the all above 15 -1 you got a consular access

Now we also have a 16-0 with which we got

1. Indian appeal for acquittal - rejected 16:0
2. Indian appeal for annulment of military court death sentence - rejected 16:0
3. Indian appeal for release and safe passage to India rejected - rejected 16:0
4. Transfer to civil court also denied

LOL how dumb do you have to be seriously to say or believe this. Do you not understand what a CONTINUED STAY on execution means?

Let e spoon feed you again:

"It is not the conviction and sentence or Mr Jhadav which are to be regarded as a violation of Article 36 of the Vienna Convention"

ICJ has clearly stated that Jhadav's death sentence cant be contested or annulled.

In other words ICJ is ok with us hanging the monkey. So yeah ICJ is okay with us executing your commander sahab.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1151514480985034752

Death sentence still stands buddy.

 

[Nilgiri]

I go to ICJ verdict itself to see who won and I can clearly see it isn't you or your country



Cute

So for all the all above 15 -1 you got a consular access

Now we also have a 16-0 with which we got

1. Indian appeal for acquittal - rejected 16:0
2. Indian appeal for annulment of military court death sentence - rejected 16:0
3. Indian appeal for release and safe passage to India rejected - rejected 16:0



Let e spoon feed you again:

"It is not the conviction and sentence or Mr Jhadav which are to be regarded as a violation of Article 36 of the Vienna Convention"

View attachment 569689


ICJ has clearly stated that Jhadav's death sentence cant be contested or annulled.

In other words ICJ is ok with us hanging the monkey. So yeah ICJ is okay with us executing your commander sahab.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1151514480985034752

Death sentence still stands buddy.

You forgot the 16 - 0 s that govern Pakistan saying ICJ didnt have any authority over the case to begin with

For the middle ground stuff (that India clearly won....international neutral headlines all agree):

There will be no execution till you review (and India will just contest any review result ad-infinitum now till there is retrial with more evidence presented to civilian court) and provide consular access that will provide substantial merit to this process.

So nope, you don't get to execute him any time you feel (like say tomorrow or this year or next year or whenever). There is a stay till ICJ has determined the review of case is acceptable....and India simply keeps that going till you release him. Given the biased prejudice clearly shown in the 1st trial (and fruits of the poisonous tree that will no apply in any review that ICJ will adjudicate on) and state of Pakistan's legal system jurisprudence internationally, its really not hard to do so. You can see yourself.

You will most likely have to retry everything, this time doing it right (providing consular access and evidence/testimony from that in the court given it will 100% conflict with the coerced testimony from earlier).

You can argue that "death sentence still stands" (given no direct overturning of it).....but with continued stay on it till Pakistan does the process right and international recognition the first trial was flawed and essentially relied on (now proven for all intents and purposes given fruits of the poisonous tree) coerced testimony (given no consular access among other things which now proven contravened Vienna conventions).....what difference does it really make? Millions of people worldwide have been on deathrow and had the sentence stayed (sometimes indefinitely) due to whatever reason (mistrial, new evidence, prejudice, coerced testimony, illegal judicial process and thus fruits of poisonous tree etc)....and were released at the end of it.

Be it 10 billion dollar cost a year (FATF greylist which could still be blacklist later) or 6 billion dollar award from Pak taxpayer to mining company....or the final result of this "spy" case. You can see the final result for yourself.

 

[Areesh]

You forgot the 16 - 0 s that govern Pakistan saying ICJ didnt have any authority over the case to begin with

You also forgot that you asked ICJ to

1. To acquit KBY
2. to release him and send him back to India
3. To annul death sentence by military court
4. to transfer to civil court

All denied and rejected

For the middle ground stuff (that India clearly won....international neutral headlines all agree):

You only got a councillor access and even that can be rejected as per 2008 bilateral agreement

"Clearly India won"

There will be no execution till you review (and India will just contest any review result ad-infinitum now till there is retrial with more evidence presented to civilian court) and provide consular access that will provide substantial merit to this process.

We would review as per our wish and will. It can be in military court too.

In any case it is all in our hands despite your "clear victory"

So nope, you don't get to execute him any time you feel (like say tomorrow or this year or next year or whenever). There is a stay till ICJ has determined the review of case is acceptable....and India simply keeps that going till you release him. Given the biased prejudice clearly shown in the 1st trial (and fruits of the poisonous tree that will no apply in any review that ICJ will adjudicate on) and state of Pakistan's legal system jurisprudence internationally, its really not hard to do so. You can see yourself.

No need to explain this further

Death sentence stands and isn't annulled. ICJ has already put full faith in Pakistan and its institutions so your claim of prejudice is baseless.

You will most likely have to retry everything, this time doing it right (providing consular access and evidence/testimony from that in the court given it will 100% conflict with the coerced testimony from earlier).

It would be as per our law and our constitution. See how lame and weak your success and victory is???

So it is we who would decide about review and how it would take place.

You can argue that "death sentence still stands" (given no direct overturning of it).....but with continued stay on it till Pakistan does the process right and international recognition the first trial was flawed and essentially relied on (now proven for all intents and purposes given fruits of the poisonous tree) coerced testimony (given no consular access among other things which now proven contravened Vienna conventions).....what difference does it really make? Millions of people worldwide have been on deathrow and had the sentence stayed (sometimes indefinitely) due to whatever reason (mistrial, new evidence, prejudice, coerced testimony, illegal judicial process and thus fruits of poisonous tree etc)....and were released at the end of it.

It is not me saying. It actually stands like before. A simple review under Pakistani law and MY KBY would be back to gallows

It is all very simple.

I have already explained the consular access thing above. You are very weak on that part too

Be it 10 billion dollar cost a year (FATF greylist which could still be blacklist later) or 6 billion dollar award from Pak taxpayer to mining company....or the final result of this "spy" case. You can see the final result for yourself.

Off topic rant

Can't make your bogus victory any real

 

[Nilgiri]

ICJ has already put full faith in Pakistan

Lol laughable....given they clearly stated you contravened international law on it. That's basically been put on the record now for this case. You know what you would have to do extra-mile wise to even try reverse that henceforth?

So it is we who would decide about review and how it would take place.

Sure, then it just comes up for ICJ arbitration each time (and India simply points out what was contravened each time - now that consular access has clearly been identified as something that can stay an execution). We'll just say each time the consular access was not fair and extensive enough, and there's plenty more lined up way past that. As long as there's a foot in the door, defense always wins on these things.

So inevitably more stays (on execution) issued. Longer it goes, longer ICJ will tend to eventually just overturning Pakistan's gross mishandling of whole affair (as legal precedent built up on it). India knows this and wins easily in the end. You can see for yourself. Pakistan legal system repute is just too full of holes to make anything it does stick in international jurisprudence.

It is all very simple.

Yah, if you decide to contravene ICJ at some point (and suffer long lasting consequence of that). They will just keep issuing stays each time you produce a verdict India feels is unfair (and that will be everything that is not a complete release back to India). So yah, its all really quite simple....which you will see now.

Off topic rant

Not really, its just reminder of what long term consequences can look like if you contravene international law....and just keep adding to it instead of rectifying your institutions to handle this stuff in accordance with international best practices and norms.

 

[Areesh]

Lol laughable....given they clearly stated you contravened international law on it.

And rejected all your basic demands and claims after that

Sure, then it just comes up for ICJ arbitration each time (and India simply points out what was contravened each time - now that consular access has clearly been identified as something that can stay an execution). We'll just say each time the consular access was not fair and extensive enough, and there's plenty more lined up way past that. As long as there's a foot in the door, defense always wins on these things.

So you have started to admit that your claim for "clear Indian victory" are bogus

Nice

So inevitably more stays (on execution) issued. Longer it goes, longer ICJ will tend to eventually just overturning Pakistan's gross mishandling of whole affair (as legal precedent built up on it). India knows this and wins easily in the end. You can see for yourself. Pakistan legal system repute is just too full of holes to make anything it does stick in international jurisprudence.

We would see when that would happen. For now. It is Pakistani victory in many ways.

Yah, if you decide to contravene ICJ at some point (and suffer long lasting consequence of that). They will just keep issuing stays each time you produce a verdict India feels is unfair (and that will be everything that is not a complete release back to India). So yah, its all really quite simple....which you will see now.

As I said. We would see when that would. For now the so called clear Indian victory is not so clear victory

Not really, its just reminder of what long term consequences can look like if you contravene international law....and just keep adding to it instead of rectifying your institutions to handle this stuff in accordance with international best practices and norms.

Nah. It was a rant. You should start admitting that you lost more in this verdict than you gained. That would help you in future discussions

 

[Kamikaze Pilot]

And rejected all your basic demands and claims after that 

It was a victory for neither. Such international bodies are always indifferent to Indo-Pak issues and pay lip service.

For instance, UN international community regularly criticises India for Kashmir human rights violations but practically speaking does nothing for plebiscite. It is their way of saying, "It is your quarrels. Don't ask us to mediate."

 

[Verve]

Lol laughable....given they clearly stated you contravened international law on it. That's basically been put on the record now for this case. You know what you would have to do extra-mile wise to even try reverse that henceforth?



Sure, then it just comes up for ICJ arbitration each time (and India simply points out what was contravened each time - now that consular access has clearly been identified as something that can stay an execution). We'll just say each time the consular access was not fair and extensive enough, and there's plenty more lined up way past that. As long as there's a foot in the door, defense always wins on these things.

So inevitably more stays (on execution) issued. Longer it goes, longer ICJ will tend to eventually just overturning Pakistan's gross mishandling of whole affair (as legal precedent built up on it). India knows this and wins easily in the end. You can see for yourself. Pakistan legal system repute is just too full of holes to make anything it does stick in international jurisprudence.



Yah, if you decide to contravene ICJ at some point (and suffer long lasting consequence of that). They will just keep issuing stays each time you produce a verdict India feels is unfair (and that will be everything that is not a complete release back to India). So yah, its all really quite simple....which you will see now.



Not really, its just reminder of what long term consequences can look like if you contravene international law....and just keep adding to it instead of rectifying your institutions to handle this stuff in accordance with international best practices and norms.

You are forgetting that Pakistan can resign from the Optional Protocol of VCCR, and then ICJ can do sod all! And India can't do anything about it.

USA has resigned from Optional Protocol as well because of such ICJ rulings.

Drag it however long but we've got the kill switch, literally.

 

[Nilgiri]

You are forgetting that Pakistan can resign from the Optional Protocol of VCCR, and then ICJ can do sod all! And India can't do anything about it.

USA has resigned from Optional Protocol as well because of such ICJ rulings.

Drag it however long but we've got the kill switch, literally.

This is true. But that will come with consequences that Pakistan will have to analyse. It is not a country of sized stature like the US.

All I'm saying is lets wait and see. This is only getting started now.

It was a victory for neither. Such international bodies are always indifferent to Indo-Pak issues and pay lip service.

For instance, UN international community regularly criticises India for Kashmir human rights violations but practically speaking does nothing for plebiscite. It is their way of saying, "It is your quarrels. Don't ask us to mediate."

Both sides essentially had their extremities of argument dismissed (like any defense/prosecution puts up to scope out the debate space)...and I would say the middle interior stuff...India got a noticeable edge here for now. But let's see how things proceed...the consular access drama itself will provide lot of tidbits on certain things....it will have ramifications should Pakistan stay within the ICJ auspices on the issue, given how case histories tend to build up generally.

 

[Verve]

This is true. But that will come with consequences that Pakistan will have to analyse. It is not a country of sized stature like the US.

All I'm saying is lets wait and see. This is only getting started now.

Yadoo will be forgotten soon. We've got others that we don't even need to disclose, one is enough for this hybrid war and Modi government is doing is favour by keeping him in media. We have tapes and more tapes so we can play this media war for as long as you people want.

 

[Shane]

Lol laughable....given they clearly stated you contravened international law on it. That's basically been put on the record now for this case. You know what you would have to do extra-mile wise to even try reverse that henceforth?



Sure, then it just comes up for ICJ arbitration each time (and India simply points out what was contravened each time - now that consular access has clearly been identified as something that can stay an execution). We'll just say each time the consular access was not fair and extensive enough, and there's plenty more lined up way past that. As long as there's a foot in the door, defense always wins on these things.

So inevitably more stays (on execution) issued. Longer it goes, longer ICJ will tend to eventually just overturning Pakistan's gross mishandling of whole affair (as legal precedent built up on it). India knows this and wins easily in the end. You can see for yourself. Pakistan legal system repute is just too full of holes to make anything it does stick in international jurisprudence.



Yah, if you decide to contravene ICJ at some point (and suffer long lasting consequence of that). They will just keep issuing stays each time you produce a verdict India feels is unfair (and that will be everything that is not a complete release back to India). So yah, its all really quite simple....which you will see now.



Not really, its just reminder of what long term consequences can look like if you contravene international law....and just keep adding to it instead of rectifying your institutions to handle this stuff in accordance with international best practices and norms.

Hold your horses dear.

I'm quoting BBC here for the lot that is trying hard to attain Modi's clody weather advantage intelligence quotient, im sure you're not one of those:

"The court did not order Pakistan to free Mr Jadhav. It's not entirely clear what will happen next. The ICJ stated Pakistan could decide how best to conduct an "effective review" of Jadhav's conviction and sentence, but seemed to suggest a review by a civilian high court would be suitable."

Review by such and such would be suitable? Lol what kind of lame *** binding language is that PRO BONO

Historically and as per the law duly noted and accepted by ICJ in its verdict, the rulings of Military courts go for review in front of the highest court of the law in Pakistan.

ICJ has stated that a review is in order as per Pakistani law and the hanging stays as long as its due - exactly as in order already.

So the Indian lawyer has nothing else but councillor access allowance to show for.

There is no retrial, just an already pending review that ICJ has re-endorsed as per Pak law, nothing changes except if India asks Pakistan nicely, very very nicely then Pakistan may allow councillor access to Kulbhushan as ICJ has no power to enforce its verdicts anyway.

So ask yourself when is Kulbhoshan going back to India?

When is India going to ask Pakistan for "counselor" access?

Who will Pakistan allow as counselor if India asks very very nicely?

 

[fitpOsitive]

You need this !!

I always thoughts Indians as a nation are reasonable people, but actually they are not. Some Indians are no doubt the best people on planet earth, but majority... Don't want to comment on that.

 

[Khafee]

I always thoughts Indians as a nation are reasonable people, but actually they are not. Some Indians are no doubt the best people on planet earth, but majority... Don't want to comment on that.

Why? You fear being lynched to death by a mob?