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The virginity industry

What would happen to an Arabian woman in an Arab country [nothing in particular] if her parents found out that she wasn't a virgin? Would she get beheaded or something?

And how are they even supposed to find out? wtf? Some girls don't bleed when they lose thier virginity. and even if they did how is the new husband supposed to know something like that if Arab's never recieve any sexual orientation?
How are the parents supposed to find out if they were never in the room?
 
That's a loaded question Asim, are you sure you and PDF can handle the answer? :azn:

When we can handle an israeli guy posting nude pictures of israeli models, and further encouraging it, we can definately handle this.

Bring it on, I wanna hear what you have to say.
 
If the casual sex is between CONSENTING adults, why should it matter to you regarding any commitment?
Well there are two separate issues here.

The first question is what effect the casual sex has on the consenting adults - whether it has a positive or negative effect on them.

The second question, which is quite separate, is whether society has any business controlling actions which do not directly hurt others - for example consumption of drugs, alcohol or casual sex.
For the first question...Everything in life produces some kinds of effects, negative and positive. It is up to one's intellectual and emotional maturity to decide if one is ready to cross that threshold from being comfortable with the known to being uncertain in the unknown.

Dead Yemeni child bride tied up, raped, says mom - Yahoo! News
SHUEBA, Yemen – A 13-year-old Yemeni child bride who bled to death shortly after marriage was tied down and forced to have sex by her husband, according to interviews with the child's mother, police and medical reports.
The girl certainly was a virgin and the sex, even though forced, was certainly inside marriage. But was she readied in intellect, emotional and physical maturity to handle sex, even though inside marriage? We can see after the fact that -- not.

The point here is that the greater the intellectual, emotional and physical assets we have the greater autonomy we demand and therefore it is only right, based upon that demand for autonomy, that we should leave the judgment of negative or positive effects to the consenting adults in question 1.

Which lead us up to question 2.

Every time we allow 'society' or the representative of 'society', aka the 'state', to adjudicate what is 'good' or 'bad' for the entire society, we lose a bit of the autonomy we demanded. That by itself is not bad for we understand that if we want to live in relative harmony with our neighbors, some limits must be set and obeyed. Do I want to go 100 mph on my bike? You bet. Should I go that fast in a residential area? No and it is agreed that a speed limit, aka restraints on me, be imposed and punishments declared for violations.

But question 2 begs another question, which is to what DEGREE should the state intrude into our lives and impose limits to our autonomy based upon sequential and inevitably increasingly abstract effects of our actions? In other words, because we live in a community, everything we do affects others in some ways and many of the effects are unseen and require time to manifest themselves. To what degree should the state punish or reward a person based upon those effects?

If I go 100 mph in a residential area, a possible effect is that I could kill a child. Should I be punished for that immediate effect? Yes. But one could argue that since I set a 'bad example' for other children, I should be punished further just in case one of those children turned out to be a juvenile delinquent later in his life.

If a woman is known to be an easily available sex partner, one could argue that she is setting a 'bad example' for young girls and some of them might turn out to be less than desirable mothers because of what they learned from this woman, and so on...and so on...

In the abstract, both above arguments are valid but only one has a potential immediate and negative effect -- the 100 mph motorcycle rider in a residential area. The state is within reasonable rights to proactively punish some actions that may produce immediate and negative effects. If a policeman, an agent of the state, sees someone attempting to break a door, he does not wait until the person is actually inside the house before he does something. He is compelled to be proactive because the negative effects of a burglary is physical as well as emotional. But it is the physical effects that is the most compelling. What if the man is the owner of the house and he is breaking the door because he lost his keys? So of course we do not enact laws that say it is illegal to break doors, only that it is illegal to break doors that are not yours. In this case the policeman may even help the homeowner break into his own house.

As we can see, even when we have what we believe to be clear cases of where the state can intrude itself into our lives, impose limits and mete out punishments for violations of those limits, there are still situations where upon examinations, punishments are not deserving, like the man who was caught breaking into a house only for us to find out he was breaking into his own house because he lost his keys.

Fornication is defined as sex outside of wedlock and is usually associated with a moral standard. The direct recipients of this type of sex are the participants, no one else. The effects are uncertain. Or highly abstract. Absent any direct physical negative effects, the state is presumably excluded from intrusion, impose any limits and mete out any punishments, based upon the lack of immediate negative effects. So where did the state received its permission to proactively punish potential sex partners who are not married to each other and to punish ex post sex partners who are not married to each other?

Let us be honest about our human nature here.

Laws regarding fornication is primarily about petty human jealousy. It is only with the mental gymnastics of religions can anyone be convinced that someone else enjoying sex outside of marriage is a negative to society. This is about petty human jealousy hiding behind the morality and religious shield and the state is the thrown spear from behind said shield.
 
Well I found this topic, and I just wanted to add my 2 cents. I don't mean to offend anyone - it is what it is.


The thing is it is just in a mans nature to want his woman to be i dunno like his property or his territory. Deep down we all don't want to imagine our wives being "in one flesh" with another male, i mean this is going to be the mother of your kids.

I know this because it sort of happened to me. Though I was born and raised in the west(orig from muslim pashtun Pakistani background) , it just shocked me that I still would think this way.

I was not a virgin or anything, but never was in a serious relationship (ie one where you think you are going to marry the person).

However I met this girl, she was muslim but was divorced. Things got serious and over time I really began to love her, i mean i had never cared or longed or felt such a way about a girl ever. Before to me girls were just for pleasure.


I told myself I don't care if shes not a virgin. However as time went by I use to get thoughts, it use to fill me with rage when I use to think about her ex screwing her. It drove me nuts. But I kept it all in my heart, because I loved her so much. Yet it did bother me sooooo much.


However for her it was diff, she use to ask about my ex gf's and even thought it as kinda "sexy" as she put it that I had some experience.


So I don't think girls care in the same way as we men do, remember GOD even allowed us to marry 4 women and live with them, it is not the same for guys, is any guy going to live in a house and share his wife with 4 dudes??? No.


So it is not fair to call us non virgin guys who want virgin wives has hypocrites, it is in a mans nature to try and screw as many women as he can.

Besides during sex it the girl who "takes it" she gets dominated and used, not the man.


I'm sorry if I sound like a sexist pig, but that is just how it is. Don't let bullshit overly liberal feminist views tell you otherwise.

Anyway I use to go discuss this with my buddies who were mostly Arab Lebanese guys, they all told me that should marry a virgin. All of these guys told me that even though they pick up girls from clubs, when it is time for marriage they will go to Lebanon and get a nice muslim virgin girl from their village.

They advised me to do the same, I told em I couldn't since I love the girl.

Anyway, I loved my fiance a lot, however I was a miserable tortured soul from the inside, every time we had sex (we were not married yet, yeah i know its haram) I use to think about her ex doing the same to her and it killed me.

Later for reasons completely unrelated we got broken up.

Now I have realized that when it is time for marriage, I am just going to get a nice pure virign girl from back home.


Trust me guys you should do the same, it is not worth it living with all that torture.



Men and women are diff, remember a guy who lays hot girls will be looked upon as cool (ie James bond), never the case for a girl she will always be a whore or slut...that is just how it is.

For muslim guys esp from Pak, don't try and fight your genes, deep down you want a nice virgin wife - so just get one.
 
^^ True. We always attack male masculinity and male nature. Never or not even close to the same extent do we do the same to women.

Men by far stand up for women and are willing to attack other men. Women always stand up for themselves and very rarely they do it for men. I believe it is due to the way we are raised.

Actually listen to this audio interview (from an American) to see what I am talking about: http://public.streamhoster.com/reso...pwidth=480&pheight=360&autostart=true&pmiuri=
It's sort of long but well worth it.
 
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Before to me girls were just for pleasure.

<snipped>

For muslim guys esp from Pak, don't try and fight your genes, deep down you want a nice virgin wife - so just get one.
No problems here. If you are comfortable with how you view women and the women who allowed you to use them for pleasure understood and accepted your nature, that is between consenting adults and your business. However, this 'virginity industry' came to be as a response to a need and that need itself is a response to a consequence of an action.

1- The action is sex before marriage.
2- The consequence is death.
3- The need is to have a deception to avoid the consequence.
4- The response is this 'virginity industry'.

Who here support item 2? Without item 2 there would be no 3 and 4. But then there would be no or very little virgins available. What will you guys do, fight for the virgin or should the virgin's father put her up to the highest bidder, like a prized calf? Is sex confined to vaginal penetration? Or will you accept a girl who is highly experienced in other sexual techniques except the one that matter the most? How can you tell anyway? And equally important, or should be equally important, is why is it the female's responsibility to prove her 'purity' and chasteness anyway? If anything, precisely because of the lack of physical evidence of 'purity' and chasteness for the male, the burden of proving his 'purity' and chasteness should be even greater -- far greater -- before marriage. Why is this not happening?
 
^^ Yeah I kinda see what your getting at, no girl should be killed for anything like that-that is insane.

However I see some girls from our community who have slept around and now realize they made a mistake complain that how come muslim guys who know them don't want to look at em for marriage. Well it is because they know you slept around.

IT happened with an Arab friend of mine back in high school. He dated an Arab girl, did all the stuff etc..however later when it came time for getting married he basically told her "you think I am gonna marry a girl like you, who flirts with guys and even sleeps with em before marriage". This basically killed her, and sent her into severe depression.

I am just saying, girls who sleep around, esp muslim girls, should then not get mad at us muslim guys for looking down on them, regardless of the fact that we do it too.

Like I dunno, if I had a daughter- I would die with shame if I know she had sex with some guy before marriage, if it was my son (as long as he is not gay) if he slept with a hot girl, I would sort of chuckle inside. Aren't most of you guys like that? Its just different for girls.

I mean a woman is a precious thing, like a covered diamond, she is the respect, the izzat of the family. Men are just wild beasts. So their virginity is nothing to be proud of. No one cares.

I mean girls tend to like a guy with experience, they want to be dominated and taken control of, they want their man to lead the way. That is in a females nature.

That's why most dont really give a **** if a guy is a virgin or not, they don't mind someone with experience.

Also to me and most red blooded straight men, dudes are digusting as hell...no one wants to think of their wife(not gf, but wife , mother of your kids, grandma of ur future grandkids) as being in one with another guy, you just can't take it.

Girls however are beautiful and delicate, and even other girls always admire the beauty of another girl, so girls don't find it disgusting that their man has touched another.


I dunno i don't mean to sound like a broken record, it's just during the act of sex the woman is simply "taking it" you know, no guy wants to imagine his wife laying on a bed getting pounded by some guy, it is tooooooo much torture.

Don't do it guys trust me, when it is time go get a nice muslim virgin girl from back home, you will have a very nice and peaceful existence.
 
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No vaccine for cervical cancer for Catholic schoolgirls in Canada
No vaccine mean Increasing their risk for the sexually transmitted infection, which is the primary cause of cervical cancer.

abstain from premarital sex the reason. so its not only Islam which stops sex before marriage.

Read this

Catholic schools debating moral issue of HPV shot - thestar.com
Who said only Islam discouraged sex before marriage? But even if an argument is compelling enough, it still require human agency to make effective the argument. That mean either the man or woman exercises self restraint or be subject to external forces in lieu of self restraints. So the crux of this matter remain unresolved:

1- Should religion go beyond persuasions and take control of the state in this matter?

2- To what extent is this control?

Every parent knows that it is better to initially attempt persuasions to get a child to do something. Next could be rewards or punishments and both are external stimulus. Who here support the death penalty, as proscribed by a religion, as an external stimulus to prevent non-marital sex? Would substitution of the death penalty to flogging make the punishment alternative more palatable? The death penalty is already proscribed for homosexuals and yet the ME still has homosexuals, as recent as the PBS show 'The Dancing Boys of Afghanistan'. So we can say that anything less than the death penalty for non-marital sex is quite useless, no?

Gents,

Stop your tap-dancing around the issue. Especially those of you who are religious. Is the death penalty an appropriate state response to a religious (moral) prohibition -- no sex before marriage?
 

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