The truth about the F-22

[zon95]

We have lived with the propaganda and hype about the power the F-22 too long. From year 2000 to 2012.

1. F-22 is not a stealth aircraft world number one. F-35 has RCS smaller than F-22

2. The F-22 is not the aircraft avionics world number one. F-35, Typhoon and Rafale have even better technology on F-22's systems

3. The F-22 is not the most maneuverable aircraft world. Su-27/30/35, Rafale, F-15C, F-16C/E, Typhoon even J-10/11 are the maneuverability aircraft F-22 higher

4. F-22 in the duel with Typhoon, EA-18G, Rafale ....! F-22 are intended to fail.

5. F-22 aircraft is the only 5th generation no HMDS system, Typhoon, Rafale even MiG-35 are equipped with this system.

6. F-22 aircraft is the only 5th generation without using materials RAM

7. F-22 is struggling to upgrade avionics and weapons. Expected in the period 2017-2020, the F-22 can use the AIM-9X, AIM-120D and HMDS was put on equipment.

8. F-22 is a 5th generation aircraft first encounter many accidents.

9. F-22 does not have the ability to use anti-ship weapon.

10. The maximum speed of the F-22 is inferior to the MiG-21 and F-4

11. Until the present time, the F-22 only use AIM-9M, AIM-120C5/6 (unknown F-22 can use version AIM-12C7)

12. F-22 is a 5th generation aircraft not SAR (synthetic aperture radar)

F-35 Stealthier Than F-22? | Ares
DailyTech - F-35 Stealth Coatings Applied to F-22
F-22 notches first guided AIM-9X Sidewinder firing - IHS Jane's 360
USAF wants improved day-night F-22 Raptor helmet by 2020
The Aviationist » Lockheed awarded $6.9 billion upgrade “indefinite-delivery/indefinite-quantity” contract to make the F-22 Raptor a real multirole fighter jet

 

[C130]

F-22 is overrated. I mean it is the best A2A fighter in the world (stealth,radar, and kinematics), but it's a hanger queen. the enemy it was designed to face,, collapsed (USSR) though Russia is re-arming and becoming a serious threat to U.S superiority again and recent China's rise would give new life to the F-22 and it's costs.


now the FB-22 that would of been an awesome fighter to come from the F-22 legacy.


Smarter Bomber | Popular Science

 

[jammersat]

f-22 is a fire and forget platform , nothing more , with some few edgy angles and radar absorbing paint job so the pilot thinks he's actually flying a b-2

 

[The Last of us]

f-22 is a fire and forget platform , nothing more , with some few edgy angles and radar absorbing paint job so the pilot thinks he's actually flying a b-2

When will you cease making all these foolish comments?

 

[C130]

We have lived with the propaganda and hype about the power the F-22 too long. From year 2000 to 2012.

1. F-22 is not a stealth aircraft world number one. F-35 has RCS smaller than F-22

2. The F-22 is not the aircraft avionics world number one. F-35, Typhoon and Rafale have even better technology on F-22's systems

3. The F-22 is not the most maneuverable aircraft world. Su-27/30/35, Rafale, F-15C, F-16C/E, Typhoon even J-10/11 are the maneuverability aircraft F-22 higher

4. F-22 in the duel with Typhoon, EA-18G, Rafale ....! F-22 are intended to fail.

5. F-22 aircraft is the only 5th generation no HMDS system, Typhoon, Rafale even MiG-35 are equipped with this system.

6. F-22 aircraft is the only 5th generation without using materials RAM

7. F-22 is struggling to upgrade avionics and weapons. Expected in the period 2017-2020, the F-22 can use the AIM-9X, AIM-120D and HMDS was put on equipment.

8. F-22 is a 5th generation aircraft first encounter many accidents.

9. F-22 does not have the ability to use anti-ship weapon.

10. The maximum speed of the F-22 is inferior to the MiG-21 and F-4

11. Until the present time, the F-22 only use AIM-9M, AIM-120C5/6 (unknown F-22 can use version AIM-12C7)

F-35 Stealthier Than F-22? | Ares
DailyTech - F-35 Stealth Coatings Applied to F-22
F-22 notches first guided AIM-9X Sidewinder firing - IHS Jane's 360
USAF wants improved day-night F-22 Raptor helmet by 2020

but to counter reply to your points.

1. I believe F-22 is still stealthier than the F-35. F-22 RCS is comparable to a marble while the F-35 is a golf ball. the RAM might be superior on the F-35, but RAM isn't the only factor that goes into reducing/determining RCS.

2. I believe this is true. Avionics are constantly being improved. So we shouldn't be surprised that planes designed later would have better avionics.

3. I'm calling bullshit on this one

4. no

5. true, but not for long F-22 Raptor Getting High-Tech Helmets - Business Insider
but I can see why they didn't rush from HMCS in the first place when you got radar guided AIM-120s that can kill from BVR.

6. no

7. it's a slow process. don't think we were ever in a hurry to field and upgrade the F-22

8. F-22 for a time was the only 5th gen aircraft. I bet Russia and China have encountered accidents as well with their 5th gen fighters.

9. F-22 role was never intended for anti-shipping you had the F-18,P-3 , and S-3 Vikings for that role.

10. irrelevant. it can super-cruise and has stealth. it doesn't need to be fast (mach 2+). it's kinematics are the best in the world.

11. AIM-9M and Aim-120 C-5/6 are good enough.

 

[BoQ77]

I was impressed with F-22 supercruise speed at Mach 1.8 ( very practical ). Means excellent engines.

Other aircraft maximum ( clean ) speed ( Mach 2 - 2.4 ) is marketing tool, not practical.

All of Russian and Chinese aircrafts can't reach supersonic supercruise speed, except Su-35.
Show their inferior engine technology.

 

[jammersat]

When will you cease making all these foolish comments?

Just because i happen to know a lot about a variety of subjects doesn't make my comments foolish , Mr. RPG supposed gamer , i bet you play dungeons and dragons too

I was impressed with F-22 supercruise speed at Mach 1.8 ( very practical )
Other aircraft maximum ( clean ) speed is marketing tool, not practical.

the f-22 's only main propaganda feature back in 2000s was vector thrusting , which is lost today among all the exotic technologies the US has revealed i.e hypersonic low orbit suicide bomber , laser propelled satellites and etc...

 

[WaLeEdK2]

But who can deny its the BEST looking aircraft in the world? :p

 

[BoQ77]

But who can deny its the BEST looking aircraft in the world? :p


View attachment 259619
View attachment 259620

The only stealth fighter in deployment for recent 10 years and NOW !!!

 

[zon95]

but to counter reply to your points.

1. I believe F-22 is still stealthier than the F-35. F-22 RCS is comparable to a marble while the F-35 is a golf ball. the RAM might be superior on the F-35, but RAM isn't the only factor that goes into reducing/determining RCS.

2. I believe this is true. Avionics are constantly being improved. So we shouldn't be surprised that planes designed later would have better avionics.

3. I'm calling bullshit on this one

4. no

5. true, but not for long F-22 Raptor Getting High-Tech Helmets - Business Insider
but I can see why they didn't rush from HMCS in the first place when you got radar guided AIM-120s that can kill from BVR.

6. no

7. it's a slow process. don't think we were ever in a hurry to field and upgrade the F-22

8. F-22 for a time was the only 5th gen aircraft. I bet Russia and China have encountered accidents as well with their 5th gen fighters.

9. F-22 role was never intended for anti-shipping you had the F-18,P-3 , and S-3 Vikings for that role.

10. irrelevant. it can super-cruise and has stealth. it doesn't need to be fast (mach 2+). it's kinematics are the best in the world.

11. AIM-9M and Aim-120 C-5/6 are good enough.

Do not impose individualism

Read this:

DailyTech - F-35 Stealth Coatings Applied to F-22
F-35 Stealthier Than F-22? | Ares
America’s Advanced Stealth Jet Flies on 1990s Tech - The Daily Beast
F-22 Won't Win A Dogfight - Business Insider
The Aviationist » Rare video shows F-22 Raptor shot down by the French Rafale in mock air-to-air combat
The Aviationist » These may be the only F-22’s Achilles’ heels in a dogfight against 4th gen fighter jets
Pentagon Worries That Russia Can Now Outshoot U.S. Stealth Jets - The Daily Beast
Intelligence: EA-18G Smokes An F-22

Apparently along with the Rafale, one aircraft which proved to be a real threat for the F-22 is the Eurofighter Typhoon: during the 2012 Red Flag-Alaska, the German Eurofighters not only held their own, but reportedly achieved several kills on the Raptors.

Even though with don’t know anything about the ROE (Rules Of Engagement) set for that training sorties and, at the same time, the outcome of those mock air-to-air combat is still much debated (as there are different accounts of those simulated battles), the “F-22 vs Typhoon at RF-A” story, raised some questions about the threat posed to the Raptor by advanced, unstealthy, 4th Gen. fighter jets.

In fact, even though these aircraft are not stealth, Typhoons are equipped with Helmet Mounted Display (HMD) systems and IRST (the Infra-Red Search and Track), two missing features on Raptors.

The Typhoon’s HMD is called Helmet Mounted Symbology System (HMSS). Just like the American JHMCS (Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System) which is integrated in the U.S. F-15C/D, F-16 Block 40 and 50 and F-18C/D/E/F, HMSS provides the essential flight and weapon aiming information through line of sight imagery. Information imagery (including aircraft’s airspeed, altitude, weapons status, aiming etc) are projected on the visor (the HEA – Helmet Equipment Assembly – for the Typhoon) , enabling the pilot to look out in any direction with all the required data always in his field of vision.

The F-22 Raptor is not equipped with a similar system (the project to implement it was axed following 2013 budget cuts). The main reason for not using it on the stealth jet is that it was believed neither an HMD, nor HOBS (High Off-Boresight) weapons that are fired using these helmets, were needed since no opponents would get close enough to be engaged with an AIM-9X in a cone more than 80 degrees to either side of the nose of the aircraft.

Sure, but the risk of coming to close range with an opponent is still high and at distances up to 50 km an aircraft equipped with an IRST (Infra-Red Search and Track) system, which can detect the IR signature of an enemy fighter (that’s why Aggressors at Red Flag carry IRST pods….), could even be able to find a stealthy plane “especially if it is large and hot, like the F-22″ as a Eurofighter pilot once said.

Summing up, the F-22 is and remains the most lethal air superiority fighter ever. Still, it lacks some nice features that could be useful to face hordes of enemy aircraft, especially if these include F-15s, Typhoons, Rafales or, in the future, the Chinese J-20 and Russian PAK-FA.

We—the U.S. [Department of Defense]—haven’t been pursuing appropriate methods to counter EA [electronic attack] for years,” a senior Air Force official with extensive experience on the F-22 told The Daily Beast. “So, while we are stealthy, we will have a hard time working our way through the EA to target [an enemy aircraft such as a Russian-built Sukhoi] Su-35s and our missiles will have a hard time killing them.”

The problem is that many potential adversaries, such as the Chinese and the Russians, have developed advanced digital radio frequency memory (DRFM) jammers. These jammers, which effectively memorize an incoming radar signal and repeat it back to the sender, seriously hamper the performance of friendly radars.

Worse, these new jammers essentially blind the small radars found onboard air-to-air missiles like the Raytheon AIM-120 AMRAAM, which is the primary long-range weapon for all U.S. and most allied fighter planes.

That means it could take several missile shots to kill an enemy fighter, even for an advanced stealth aircraft like the Raptor. “While exact Pk [probability of kill] numbers are classified, let’s just say that I won’t be killing these guys one for one,” the senior Air Force official said. It’s the “same issue” for earlier American fighters like the F-15, F-16, or F/A-18.

Another Air Force official with experience on the stealthy new F-35 Joint Strike Fighter agreed. “AMRAAM’s had some great upgrades over the years, but at the end of the day, it’s old technology and wasn’t really designed with today’s significant EA in mind,” this official said.

Like boxers, every missile has a reach, a range, a limit to how far it can hit. In the not-too-distant future, the AMRAAM might also be out-ranged by new weapons that are being developed around the world. Particularly, Russia is known to be developing an extremely long-range weapon called the K-100 that has far better reach than anything currently in existence.

The problem is not a new one. Historically, the Pentagon has always prioritized the development of new fighters over the development new weapons—it’s a uniquely American blind spot. During the 1970s, the then brand new F-15A Eagle carried the same antiquated armament as the Vietnam-era F-4 Phantom II. It wasn’t until the 1990s that the F-15 received a weapon in the form of the AMRAAM that could take full advantage of its abilities. The same applies to short-range weapons—it wasn’t until the early 2000s with the introduction of the AIM-9X that the U.S. had a dogfighting weapon that could match or better the Russian R-73 Archer missile.

AIM-120C5/6 not good as AIM-120C7/8, they has a short range, about 100km, is not designed to combat the ECM and DRFM with newer technologies.

Until this point, the F-22 had no HMDS and AIM-9X / 120D. It would disadvantage when against MiG-35, J-11D, Rafale, Typhoon, Su-35S is equipped with missiles R-77-1, R-37M, R-77M, Meteor, PL-12D / 15.

 

[C130]

Do not impose individualism

Read this:

DailyTech - F-35 Stealth Coatings Applied to F-22
F-35 Stealthier Than F-22? | Ares
America’s Advanced Stealth Jet Flies on 1990s Tech - The Daily Beast
F-22 Won't Win A Dogfight - Business Insider
The Aviationist » Rare video shows F-22 Raptor shot down by the French Rafale in mock air-to-air combat
The Aviationist » These may be the only F-22’s Achilles’ heels in a dogfight against 4th gen fighter jets
Pentagon Worries That Russia Can Now Outshoot U.S. Stealth Jets - The Daily Beast
Intelligence: EA-18G Smokes An F-22

AIM-120C5/6 not good as AIM-120C7/8, they has a short range, about 100km, is not designed to combat the ECM and DRFM with newer technologies.

Until this point, the F-22 had no HMDS and AIM-9X / 120D. It would disadvantage when against MiG-35, J-11D, Rafale, Typhoon, Su-35S is equipped with missiles R-77-1, R-37M, R-77M, Meteor, PL-12D / 15.

the F-35 has better RAM, but that doesn't mean it's stealthier. quote taken from the first link

Defense News reports that Babione claims that the new coatings don’t change the radar cross section of the F-22. The coatings according to Babione are simply to reduce maintenance costs. He said, "[The F-35 program] had some more robust materials that were more durable and we were able to pull those back on to the F-22. So our system is better, and the life-cycle cost of the F-22 is reduced." - See more at: DailyTech - F-35 Stealth Coatings Applied to F-22

it's more for cost saving than actually reducing RCS.
you shouldn't really take mock dog fights seriously of how it would perform in a real dog fight. we don't know the parameters of the mock dog fight in the first place, but I'm willing to bet the F-22s are handicapped.

 

[zon95]

the F-35 has better RAM, but that doesn't mean it's stealthier. quote taken from the first link

it's more for cost saving than actually reducing RCS.
you shouldn't really take mock dog fights seriously of how it would perform in a real dog fight. we don't know the parameters of the mock dog fight in the first place, but I'm willing to bet the F-22s are handicapped.

Read This:

The F-35′s cross section is much smaller than the F-22′s. “The F-35 doesn’t have the altitude, doesn’t have the speed [of the F-22], but it can beat the F-22 in stealth.”

F-35 Stealthier Than F-22? | Ares

Had any image, F-22 lock a Rafale or Typhoon! F-22 is inflated too many times, as the source of the evidence I have given. F-22 absolutely not the best stealth aircraft, it is also no victory over the aircraft Typhoon, Rafale, the EA-18G. Its electronic system is outdated, its weapon systems are obsolete and difficult to upgrade

 

[C130]

Read This:

The F-35′s cross section is much smaller than the F-22′s. “The F-35 doesn’t have the altitude, doesn’t have the speed [of the F-22], but it can beat the F-22 in stealth.”

F-35 Stealthier Than F-22? | Ares

Had any image, F-22 lock a Rafale or Typhoon! F-22 is inflated too many times, as the source of the evidence I have given. F-22 absolutely not the best stealth aircraft, it is also no victory over the aircraft Typhoon, Rafale, the EA-18G. Its electronic system is outdated, its weapon systems are obsolete and difficult to upgrade

this is based on one person saying it's way more stealthier than the F-22 this is total marketing. he isn't buying F-22s he's buying F-35s. this is salesman talk.

Gilmary M. Hostage III - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


RCS OF Different Fighters


F-22 has 1/6th RCS of the F-35

 

[zon95]

this is based on one person saying it's way more stealthier than the F-22 this is total marketing. he isn't buying F-22s he's buying F-35s. this is salesman talk.

Gilmary M. Hostage III - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


RCS OF Different Fighters


F-22 has 1/6th RCS of the F-35

General Gilmary Michael Hostage III
commander, Air Combat Command

And.....Who are you ? a military expert? You are just a nameless

you have other sources of information outside the forum?

Do not impose individualism

 

[C130]

General Gilmary Michael Hostage III
commander, Air Combat Command

And.....Who are you ? a military expert? You are just a nameless

you have other sources of information outside the forum?

Do not impose individualism

where is the data that shows the F-35 is stealthier than the F-22??

Like I said he's marketing the F-35. When you are buying thousands of them and your allies are buying 100's you gotta pitch it to justify the costs


it's a good plane, but I'm just doubting it's RCS is smaller than the F-22, and B-2s


and this isn't individualism this is from multiple articles I have read about the F-22 and F-35.