The true Afghanistan

[Areesh]

Afghanistan has a rich history of thousands of years that goes beyond Pakistan
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5000 years of dressing young boys in girl clothes and making them dance.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Famous historian Raverty says that limits of true Afghanistan (i.e Pashtunkhwa) in 13th century were ;

Mian Babban what something is - is all dependant on who you ask and the times you live. Nothing is fixed. All we can do is make the best of what we have or fight to change what we have if we don't like it. What Ravery a chap from UK says is moot.

In 13th century the world looked differant. In 300BCE all of Western Asia was part of Greek Empire. Quoting what Alexander regarded as his empire is not going to cut little ice today with Turks or Persians or Afghans or Pakistanis. To begin with what is Afghanistan? Is it the present political unit? Is it the past empire that stretched to borders of Punjab and Sindh? Who are Afghans? Tajiks? Uzbek? Mongol Hazara? Is it a generic term or a modern definition as a political state according to definition of the Westphalian concept?

If you notice I avoid overtly feeding the fires of ethnic nationalism and stress the federative concept of the Pakistani state. Why? Simple, I know Pakistan and Afghanistan like most countries in Asia are essentially multi-ethnic composites. Worse most are very mixed in that the differant ethnic groups ate not neatly boxed into geographic zones. There are no clear lines of differantiation. There are "grey zones" when populations overlap.

I am sure you have heard of Balkanization. This is a very dangerous concept. I am sure you have heard of the falling apart of Yugoslavia and the bloodbath that followed. Is that what you want for our part of the world. Do you want to see Khyber Paktunkwa torn apart along ethnic lines and blood letting on mass scale? Your clearly a smart person so do think about this. You think Pakistan would be better to have a internal fracture? Also once it is over you do undersatand all the ethnic groups that are there will still have to learn to live with each other. They are still going to be living next door to each other.

Have a look at Afghanistan. You know the acrimomny between Tajiks, Uzbeks, Hazara, Turkmen, Pashtun and Nuristani? The single biggest problem with our region is lack of unity. That is why the British walked in and bummed us. That is why US has walked in and is doing what it is doing.

 

[Mian Babban]

Afghanistan has a rich history of thousands of years that goes beyond Pakistan
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5000 years of dressing young boys in girl clothes and making them dance.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

The crazy thing is I was brought up in UK and am accused of being a Anglophile. Yet the reality is most of so called historians use books written by British officials which reflect the world as it looked to them in 1880s as the "end of history". So what the British officials called "Indian" or "Afghan" or Chinese is now truth for eternity.

And Mian Babban think like Ayub Khan.

 

[Mian Babban]

Mian Babban what something is - is all dependant on who you ask and the times you live. Nothing is fixed. All we can do is make the best of what we have or fight to change what we have if we don't like it. What Ravery a chap from UK says is moot.

In 13th century the world looked differant. In 300BCE all of Western Asia was part of Greek Empire. Quoting what Alexander regarded as his empire is not going to cut little ice today with Turks or Persians or Afghans or Pakistanis. To begin with what is Afghanistan? Is it the present political unit? Is it the past empire that stretched to borders of Punjab and Sindh? Who are Afghans? Tajiks? Uzbek? Mongol Hazara? Is it a generic term or a modern definition as a political state according to definition of the Westphalian concept?

If you notice I avoid overtly feeding the fires of ethnic nationalism and stress the federative concept of the Pakistani state. Why? Simple, I know Pakistan and Afghanistan like most countries in Asia are essentially multi-ethnic composites. Worse most are very mixed in that the differant ethnic groups ate not neatly boxed into geographic zones. There are no clear lines of differantiation. There are "grey zones" when populations overlap.

I am sure you have heard of Balkanization. This is a very dangerous concept. I am sure you have heard of the falling apart of Yugoslavia and the bloodbath that followed. Is that what you want for our part of the world. Do you want to see Khyber Paktunkwa torn apart along ethnic lines and blood letting on mass scale? Your clearly a smart person so do think about this. You think Pakistan would be better to have a internal fracture? Also once it is over you do undersatand all the ethnic groups that are there will still have to learn to live with each other. They are still going to be living next door to each other.

Have a look at Afghanistan. You know the acrimomny between Tajiks, Uzbeks, Hazara, Turkmen, Pashtun and Nuristani? The single biggest problem with our region is lack of unity. That is why the British walked in and bummed us. That is why US has walked in and is doing what it is doing.

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Your commentary is purely nationalistic

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Which is why Afghans now want to be the slaves of hindus......lol........

 

[Mian Babban]

The crazy thing is I was brought up in UK and am accused of being a Anglophile. Yet the reality is most of so called historians use books written by British officials which reflect the world as it looked to them in 1880s as the "end of history". So what the British officials called "Indian" or "Afghan" or Chinese is now truth for eternity.

And Mian Babban think like Ayub Khan.

You are clueless about medieval history. Raverty has referenced from Muslim sources like Tabqat-i-Nasiri, Mazkhan-i-Afghani, Tazkirat of Darweza and other medieval Persian and Pashto documents........The limits of Roh or medieval Afghanistan are described by Mughal historians

 

[Indus Pakistan]

You are clueless about medieval history. Raverty has referenced from Muslim sources like Tabqat-i-Nasiri, Mazkhan-i-Afghani, Tazkirat of Darweza and other medieval Persian and Pashto documents

Okay I accept you have better understanding of the history and borders in South Asia in Medieval ages. However non of that detracts from what I said in my earlier post. Read it again.

 

[Mian Babban]

Okay I accept you have better understanding of the history and borders in South Asia in Medieval ages. However non of that detracts from what I said in my earlier post. Read it again.

I did read your post. I stick to my stance, your notion notion of history is muddled by nationalism.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

In a ideal world every single ethnic group starting from Turkmen to Hazara, Tajik, Uzbek, Nuristani, Pashtuns, Baloch, Punjabi, Kashmiri, Sindhi and then going into India with it's dozens of ethnic groups should have been separate countries with clean tidy borders but short of World War 3 and millions dead this is NOT going to happen peacefully. So better to live with what contours we have and make the best we can out of it. I know European history very well. Most European states are indeed ethno- states. For example Poland is "Poles". Bulgarians is "Bulgars" etc

But do you know what they went through in last 300 years?

 

[Mian Babban]

In a ideal world every single ethnic group starting from Turkmen to Hazara, Tajik, Uzbek, Nuristani, Pashtuns, Baloch, Punjabi, Kashmiri, Sindhi and then going into India with it's dozens of ethnic groups should have been separate countries with clean tidy borders but short of World War 3 and millions dead this is NOT going to happen peacefully. So better to live with what contours we have and make the best we can out of it. I know European history very well. Most European states are indeed ethno- states. For example Poland is "Poles". Bulgarians is "Bulgars" etc

But do you know what they went through in last 300 years?

Thats what i was talking about, you are a nationalist rather than a historian or student of history or simple history enthusiast. I remember you were unable to adjust yourself on historium forum, because of nationalism

 

[Khan_21]

Thats what i was talking about, you are a nationalist rather than a historian or student of history or simple history enthusiast. I remember you were unable to adjust yourself on historium forum, because of nationalism

This is 2017 nobody gives a crap how or What Afghanistan was 400 years ago .

 

[Mian Babban]

This is 2017 nobody gives a crap how or What Afghanistan was 400 years ago .

What are you doing in history section?

 

[Indus Pakistan]

your notion notion of history is muddled by nationalism.

Mian MBabban cut me some slack. I am not a idiot. I have own personal prejudices and thoughts but I am a realist. It's not so much as 'muddled' but more to do with reality as it exists today and then rationalizing that. In short to me history is to learn from and then apply those lessons to today to create a better situation. History for me is not to go back and try to live it as it was or try to reconfigure the present according to the past.

You go on about "ghairat" etc and to me that appears to be indicative that your stuck in the past. You read history books (with respec) not to learn lessons and move forward but to satisfy a yearning to live in the past. That is fools gold I am afraid.

Evolve. Pragmatism. Evolution is the natural order of things. Take for example Mullah Omar. That basket did not give up OBL to the Americans out of some primitive concept of honour and obediance to a redundant code. Because of Mullah Omar's primitivness look what happened? Thousands on thousands of young babies, children, women have been killed by American missiles. Thousands on thousands of "kaffir" soldiers are marching all over Afghanistan kicking doors open with their boots and intruding into female quarters.

Tell me is this "ghairat" or indicative of honour? Having your people raped by a kaffir invader all because of some stupid notion of honour to a primitive code? That my friend is stupidity. Those who do not learn from history are bound to repeat it again and again. Use your knowledge to move forward.

CPEC offers K-Pk limitless opportunties. You see Javed Afridi and his success with Haier Pakistan. That is way forward. K-Pk has such a great future if education mated with forward thinking takes hold. China and it's huge market is waiting to be plucked.

 

[Mian Babban]

Mian MBabban cut me some slack. I am not a idiot. I have own personal prejudices and thoughts but I am a realist. It's not so much as 'muddled' but more to do with reality as it exists today and then rationalizing that. In short to me history is to learn from and then apply those lessons to today to create a better situation. History for me is not to go back and try to live it as it was or try to reconfigure the present according to the past.

You go on about "ghairat" etc and to me that appears to be indicative that your stuck in the past. You read history books (with respec) not to learn lessons and move forward but to satisfy a yearning to live in the past. That is fools gold I am afraid.

Evolve. Pragmatism. Evolution is the natural order of things. Take for example Mullah Omar. That basket did not give up OBL to the Americans out of some primitive concept of honour and obediance to a redundant code. Because of Mullah Omar's primitivness look what happened? Thousands on thousands of young babies, children, women have been killed by American missiles. Thousands on thousands of "kaffir" soldiers are marching all over Afghanistan kicking doors open with their boots and intruding into female quarters.

Tell me is this "ghairat" or indicative of honour? Having your people raped by a kaffir invader all because of some stupid notion of honour to a primitive code? That my friend is stupidity. Those who do not learn from history are bound to repeat it again and again. Use your knowledge to move forward.

CPEC offers K-Pk limitless opportunties. You see Javed Afridi and his success with Haier Pakistan. That is way forward. K-Pk has such a great future if education mated with forward thinking takes hold. China and it's huge market is waiting to be plucked.

You are all over the place buddy. Whats up with the mentions of "ghairat", "mullah omar" , "Javed Afridi of Hair", "CPEC", "China" , "OBL" ? ........there are other sections for these discussions, you are being off-topic here like every other Pakistani nationalist.