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The Kashmir Resolutions - Explanations

‘Indian actions on demilitarization’ was to be preceded by Pakistan’s ‘actions on demilitarization’ making it logically impossible to tie Pakistan’s withdrawal to Indian ‘actions’. That is in fact an absurd proposition. What it could have been contingent upon was the Indian _plan_ of demilitarization. But then, the Commission had explicitly detached Pakistan’s withdrawal from the Indian plan of demilitarization, it being a matter to be settled entirely between GoI and the Commission.

What makes Pakistan’s withdrawal unconditional and unilateral, is that it is irrelevant if Pakistan agreed (or disagreed) to the timing, manner and quantum of Indian withdrawal, so long as UN played the role of mediator. Pakistan had absolutely no say in any of this. It was all UN’s headache. Pakistan had to withdraw _in advance_, consequent on which India had to begin withdrawing in accordance to a plan, agreed upon by GoI and UN and published in public. UN was to _supervise_ the withdrawal to ensure that no country was at a disadvantage. Period.

Nothing, that I have posted, says anything otherwise – explicitly or implicitly.
Wrong - what you have posted cleary does condition Pakistani withdrawal to actions, or a plan of action that satisfied certain criteria the commission laid out - once again, read the text you yourself posted:

"It was feasible [...] that the arrangements could be coordinated and supervised by the mediation party, namely, the Commission, so as to cause the two withdrawals to represent a dual operation which would be coordinated in timing and would result in a military situation in the State which was not such as to place either side at a disadvantage." (para 242)

"It (the Commission)repeatedly assured the Pakistan Government that this would be evident in the agreement itself, and it must be noted that the terms were to be published in full immediately upon the acceptance of the Governments. The withdrawal plan for the Indian forces [...] was consequently, to be published in advance of implementation by either side." (para 244)

The underlying clearly makes a Pakistani withdrawal neither unilateral nor unconditional - any one with a rudimentary understanding of English can see that.

If you peel all the layers, you would find that India had rejected only ONE proposal regarding demilitarization. It was about the quantum of troops to be left on either side, immediately after demilitarization. The reason was Pakistan's deliberately twisted interpretation of 'local authority' in evacuated territory (in spite of repeated clarification by the Commission) and the perfidy in connection with disbanding and disarming the 'Azad forces'. The idea of converting LoC into IB was the most practical solution given Pakistan's insistence on not meeting its obligation on one pretext or the other and thereby holding up demilitarization and everything that was to follow from it.

Peeling the layers? You mean more excuses to explain away Indian intransigence - since the Indian goal was to stall in order to withdraw from its commitment.

It is easy to point fingers when ignorance is wisdom.
It is easy to point fingers when the party being accused is in fact guilty.

Wrong. The commitment was to implement the principle of plebiscite once certain very specific conditions were fulfilled. Non fulfillment of those conditions gave India every right to withdraw from the resolutions.
And where was the timeline for implementation of conditions, failing to meet which a party could determine that the commitment was null and void?

Barring an explicit timeline within the resolutions, your argument would theoretically allow for 'withdrawal from the commitment on the basis of non-implementation' after two days - and is therfore an invalid excuse for India's violation of her commitment to the UNSC resolutions.
That statements do not tantamount to violation of any commitment, is another matter
Statements followed up by actions in the form of the forcible annexation and integration of the disputed territory under Indian control - an explicit violation of the commitment to the UNSC resolutions that declare the territory disputed and the means of dispute resolution a plebiscite.
 
AM,

Those UNSC resolutions are nothing more than junk paper if either India or Pak decide it is so.
Any agreement or treaty is 'junk paper' if no effective enforcement mechanism exists - by that yardstick the IWT is junk, Simla is junk etc. etc. Why should India be trusted with any agreement in the future?
If you mean something along the lines of "give us the valley - keep the rest" - it ain't gonna happen under threat of proxies and judging from Niaz's posting not by offer of peace too.....that which has taken blood/sweat to achieve is unlikely to be given away....

The basis of all this is not justice or the 'righteous' but power. The more powerful entity will prevail.....take the fact pakistan hasn't gotten anywhere with it's proxies or wars.....I for one would definitely be OK with India ceding kashmir for independence or change in territorial status quo but reality is different. Time for Pakistan to re-calibrate and define what is in it's best interest.
You have essentially dropped all pretense of having any legal or moral claim to J&K, nor any valid excuse to justify Indian occupation and subjugation of J&K, by resorting to the excuse of last resort for scoundrels and thugs - 'might is right'.

Since that is where you rest your case, do you then accept then that in return for India's forcible occupation and subjugation of Kashmir and the Kashmiri people, and the numerous atrocities inflicted upon those people by India in the effort to strengthen her occupation, Pakistan is well within its bounds to use covert and overt violent means, as it sees fit, to make Indian occupation and subjugation as costly for India as possible?
 
We are just going in circles.
Wrong - what you have posted cleary does condition Pakistani withdrawal to actions, or a plan of action that satisfied certain criteria the commission laid out...
To the satisfaction of UN, yes. Not Pakistan.

That was the whole point of UN being there as a mediator. That was the whole point of negotiation between GoI and UN. That was the whole point of keeping Pakistan out from the negotiation. Because Pakistan’s obligation to withdraw was _absolute_, where withdrawal meant _complete_ evacuation of Pak nationals, Army and other fighting forces, while India’s obligation arose as and when Pakistan withdrew. Hence, timing, manner and quantum of Indian troop withdrawal needed to be determined to the satisfaction of UN. Not of Pakistan.

"It was feasible [...] that the arrangements could be coordinated and supervised by the mediation party, namely, the Commission, so as to cause the two withdrawals to represent a dual operation which would be coordinated in timing and would result in a military situation in the State which was not such as to place either side at a disadvantage." (para 242)
Again, it was UN to decide if plan of Indian withdrawal fulfilled the criteria. Not Pakistan. Pakistan was not even entitled to know about the terms and conditions, until the time of agreement. You also forgot to highlight the part that says _the arrangements could be coordinated and supervised by the mediation party, namely, the Commission_ which makes abundantly clear that it was not something that concerned Pakistan.

Besides, para 242 was the Commission’s response to Pakistan’s demand that withdrawal be ‘synchronized’ and that the only way to ensure such ‘synchronization’ was by sharing of information.
The Commission's reply regarding synchronization cannot be interpreted out of the context of the Resolution which, as has been pointed out, draws a distinction between the withdrawal of Indian and Pakistan forces. Pakistan troops are to begin to withdraw in advance of the Indian troops and their withdrawal is not conditioned on Pakistan's agreement to the plan of the Indian withdrawal. […] The Commission was not able to share the view of the Government of Pakistan that the only method of assuring this form of synchronization was by the full and free exchange of information between the Indian and Pakistan Governments regarding withdrawal plans. It was feasible, in the Commission's judgment and the Commission's military adviser had had this in mind, that the arrangements could be coordinated and supervised by the mediation party, namely, the Commission, so as to cause the two withdrawals to represent a dual operation which would be coordinated in timing and would result in a military situation in the State which was not such as to place either side at a disadvantage.(para 242)​
The connotation of that quote becomes clear when read in the right context. And that is, the 'synchronization' was UN's responsibility. (Hence Indian plan needed to be to the satisfaction of UN.)

"It (the Commission)repeatedly assured the Pakistan Government that this would be evident in the agreement itself, and it must be noted that the terms were to be published in full immediately upon the acceptance of the Governments. The withdrawal plan for the Indian forces [...] was consequently, to be published in advance of implementation by either side." (para 244)[/I]
Give it a rest. The highlighted part is a reference to Part II/C of the Truce agreement. It states:
“Upon signature, the full text of the Truce Agreement or communiqué containing the principles thereof as agreed upon between the two Governments and the Commission, will be made public.”​
That you have to fall back on questioning my understanding of rudimentary English, illustrates how desperately you want to see what you want to see. In spite of knowing that it is logically impossible for an action to be dependent on something that succeeds it and is in essence dependent on it, or in spite of UN clarifying in no uncertain terms that Pakistan’s withdrawal was not conditional to Indian plan of demilitarization you keep insisting that it was so. Your intransigence is now reaching new heights of absurdity.

Peeling the layers? You mean more excuses to explain away Indian intransigence - since the Indian goal was to stall in order to withdraw from its commitment.


It is easy to point fingers when the party being accused is in fact guilty.
Ignorance is indeed bliss.

And where was the timeline for implementation of conditions, failing to meet which a party could determine that the commitment was null and void?

Barring an explicit timeline within the resolutions, your argument would theoretically allow for 'withdrawal from the commitment on the basis of non-implementation' after two days - and is therfore an invalid excuse for India's violation of her commitment to the UNSC resolutions.
An agreement becomes null and void when, among other reasons, the other party to the agreement takes a position which makes it apparent, its intention to not perform. Pakistan’s declared stance on several issues (e.g. deliberate misinterpretation of ‘local authority’, refusing to disband and disarm ‘Azad’ force, insisting on simultaneous troop withdrawal to bring in ‘military balance’, refusal to accept its role, or the lack of it, in the process of negotiation, but more importantly, refusing to implement Part I/B & E of Cease Fire agreement etc.) made it clear that Pakistan didn’t want to withdraw. India was not under any compulsion to wait till infinity when it became apparent that no withdrawal was possible in the face of Pakistan's hardened stand.

One more time, incorporating Kashmir within the folds of Indian Constitution wasn’t illegal. There is nothing in any resolution that prevents India from administering Kashmir in a way that it deemed fit.

...the UNSC resolutions that declare the territory disputed and the means of dispute resolution a plebiscite.
No resolution at the UN was passed declaring the territory ‘disputed’. On the contrary, the Commission had explicitly assured India that the sovereignty of J & K would never be questioned. By virtue of Instrument of Accession, a substantial part of that sovereignty rested with India.

You can give this canard a rest too.
 
Let me post the whole 1952 UNSC resolution on India-Pakistan Kashmir Issue.

*RESOLUTION 98 (1952) ADOPTED BY THE SECURITY COUNCIL AT ITS 611TH MEETING ON 23 DECEMBER, 1952. (DOCUMENT NO. S/2883, DATED THE 24TH DECEMBER, 1952).

THE SECURITY COUNCIL,

Recalling its resolutions, 91 (1951) of 30 March 1951, its decision of 30 April 1951 and its resolution 96 (1951) of 10 November 1951,

Further Recalling the provisions of the United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan resolutions of 13 August 1948, and 5 January 1949, which were accepted by the Governments of India and Pakistan and which provided that the question of the accession of the State of Jammu and Kashmir to India or Pakistan would be decided through the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite conducted under the auspices of the United Nations,

Having received the third report, dated 22 April 1952, and the fourth report, dated 16 September 1952, of the United Nations Representative for India and Pakistan;

Endorses the general principles on which the United Nations Representative has sought to bring about agreement between the Governments of India and Pakistan;

2. Notes with gratification that the United Nations Representative has reported that the Governments of India and Pakistan have accepted all but two of the paragraphs of his twelve-point proposals;

3. Notes that agreement on a plan of demilitarization of the State of Jammu and Kashmir has not been reached because the Governments of India and Pakistan have not agreed on the whole of paragraph 7 of the twelve-point proposals;


4. Urges the Governments of India and Pakistan to enter into immediate negotiations under the auspices of the United Nations Representative for India and Pakistan in order to reach agreement on the specific number of forces to remain on each side of the cease-fire line at the end of the period of demilitarization, this number to be between 3,000 and 6,000 armed forces remaining on the Pakistan side of the cease-fire line and between 12,000 and 18,000 armed forces remaining on the India side of the cease-fire line, as suggested by the United Nations Representative in his proposals of 16 July 1952, such specific numbers to be arrived at bearing in mind the principles or criteria contained in paragraph 7 of the United Nations Representative's proposal of 4 September 1952;

5. Records its gratitude to the United Nations Representative for India and Pakistan for the great efforts which he has made to achieve a settlement and requests him to continue to make his services available to the Governments of India and Pakistan to this end;

6. Requests the Governments of India and Pakistan to report to the Security Council not later than thirty days from the date of the adoption of this resolution;

7. Requests the United Nations Representative for India and Pakistan to keep the Security Council informed of any progress.

http://daccess-ods.un.org/access.nsf/Get?Open&DS=S/RES/98%20(1952)&Lang=E&Area=RESOLUTION

http://www.kashmiri-cc.ca/un/sc23dec52.htm

Clearly, from the above 3 highlighted paras it is clear that both India and Pakistan didn't agree for the demilitarization and the blame is put on both due to their disagreement to certain points in 12-point proposal. So, both India and Pakistan are at fault for failure of this UNSC mandated resolutions and a long time has passed since that these resolutions are no longer applicable.
 
Thursday, 07 October 2010
Shawwal 27, 1431
UN Chief Expresses Concern over Kashmir Issue
UNITED NATIONS: United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, expressing concern over the killings in Indian occupied Kashmir Valley, has again called for an immediate end to violence and has urged for restraint while regretting the loss of life.

More than 110 Kashmiris have been killed in the mass unrest that broke out early June following protests over spate of killings by Indian police.

When at his press conference Wednesday, the UN chief’s attention was drawn to the deteriorating situation in Kashmir and asked whether he was prepared to offer his good-offices to resolve the decades-old dispute since bilateral efforts have failed, Ban said he could only use his good offices when both parties - India and Pakistan - agreed to such a course.

“I regret the latest loss of life. I have been calling for an immediate end to violence and urge calm and restraint by all concerned,” Ban however said.

“That is the position of the United Nations at this time.”

“As far as this role of good offices is concerned, the United Nations normally takes that initiative when requested by both parties concerned,” Ban told journalists during his monthly briefing.

“India and Pakistan, they are neighbouring countries, important nations in that region — peace and security would have important implications,” he said.

Last week, representatives of India and Pakistan had a verbal duel in the UN General Assembly after Indian External Affairs Minister SM Krishna accused Pakistan of being behind the current unrest in Kashmir.

Pakistan rejected India’s allegation, urging New Delhi to stop its state-sponsored terrorism in Kashmir and grant the Kashmiri people their UN-mandated right to self-determination.

Later both sides cancelled a scheduled meeting after the Pakistani foreign minister said the talks should be made “meaningful” by including the festering dispute over Kashmir on the agenda.


UN boss expresses concern over Kashmir Issue - GEO.tv
 
How Nehru’s Partisans Are Subverting his Kashmir Promise​
Jawed Naqvi
When US President Barrack Obama during his visit to India kept studiously quiet about his host’s military occupation of Kashmir, he was in fact critiquing Jawaharlal Nehru in front of those who claim legitimacy from India’s first prime minister.

Obama may have got his cue from Prime Minister Manmohan Singh. He was after all a senior member of the Indian cabinet in 1994 when the parliament passed a strange resolution claiming that the entire Jammu and Kashmir state, including the area “occupied” by Pakistan, was an integral part of India.

The resolution became the antithesis of everything that India had stood for vis a vis Kashmir under Nehru. The fact that Delhi’s most powerful politician Sonia Gandhi, and the ruling Congress party’s heir apparent Rahul Gandhi have implicitly backed the existing hard line policy can be seen as the betrayal of an ideal both claim to inherit from Nehru.

Let’s see what Nehru said over several years about Kashmir, and how many of his views are being echoed by political activists who are being shunned by the system today as seditionists and anti-national rabble-rousers.

In his telegram to the Prime Minister of Pakistan on Oct 27, 1947, Nehru said: “I should like to make it clear that the question of aiding Kashmir in this emergency is not designed in any way to influence the state to accede to India. Our view which we have repeatedly made public is that the question of accession in any disputed territory or state must be decided in accordance with wishes of people and we adhere to this view.”

In another similar telegram four days later, he said: “Kashmir’s accession to India was accepted by us at the request of the Maharaja’s government and the most numerously representative popular organisation in the state which is predominantly Muslim. Even then it was accepted on condition that as soon as law and order had been restored, the people of Kashmir would decide the question of accession. It is open to them to accede to either Dominion then.”

In his broadcast over All India Radio on Nov 2, 1947, Nehru said: “We are anxious not to finalise anything in a moment of crisis and without the fullest opportunity to be given to the people of Kashmir to have their say. It is for them ultimately to decide — And let me make it clear that it has been our policy that where there is a dispute about the accession of a state to either Dominion, the accession must be made by the people of that state. It is in accordance with this policy that we have added a proviso to the Instrument of Accession of Kashmir.”

In his statement in the Indian Constituent Assembly on Nov 25, 1947, Nehru said: “In order to establish our bona fide, we have suggested that when the people are given the chance to decide their future, this should be done under the supervision of an impartial tribunal such as the United Nations Organisation. The issue in Kashmir is whether violence and naked force should decide the future or the will of the people.”

In his statement in the Indian Constituent Assembly on March 5, 1948, he said: “Even at the moment of accession, we went out of our way to make a unilateral declaration that we would abide by the will of the people of Kashmir as declared in a plebiscite or referendum. We insisted further that the government of Kashmir must immediately become a popular government. We have adhered to that position throughout and we are prepared to have a Plebiscite with every protection of fair voting and to abide by the decision of the people of Kashmir”.

In his press conference in London on Jan 16, 1951, as reported by The Statesman on Jan 18, 1951, Nehru stated: “India has repeatedly offered to work with the United Nations reasonable safeguards to enable the people of Kashmir to express their will and is always ready to do so. We have always right from the beginning accepted the idea of the Kashmir people deciding their fate by referendum or plebiscite. In fact, this was our proposal long before the United Nations came into the picture. Ultimately the final decision of the settlement, which must come, has first of all to be made basically by the people of Kashmir and secondly, as between Pakistan and India directly. Of course it must be remembered that we (India and Pakistan) have reached a great deal of agreement already. What I mean is that many basic features have been thrashed out. We all agreed that it is the people of Kashmir who must decide for themselves about their future externally or internally. It is an obvious fact that even without our agreement no country is going to hold on to Kashmir against the will of the Kashmiris.”

**In his report to All Indian Congress Committee on July 16, 1951, as published in The Statesman, New Delhi, on July 9, 1951, Nehru said: “Kashmir has been wrongly looked upon as a prize for India or Pakistan. People seem to forget that Kashmir is not a commodity for sale or to be bartered. It has an individual existence and its people must be the final arbiters of their future.**

It is here today that a struggle is bearing fruit, not in the battlefield but in the minds of men.”

In a letter dated Sept 11, 1951, to the UN representative, Pandit Nehru wrote: “The Government of India not only reaffirms its acceptance of the principle that the question of the continuing accession of the state of Jammu and Kashmir to India shall be decided through the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite under the auspices of the United Nations but is anxious that the conditions necessary for such a plebiscite should be created as quickly as possible.” (This is where Pakistan needs to fulfil its part of the bargain.)

As reported by Amrita Bazar Patrika, Calcutta, on Jan 2, 1952, while replying to the Bharatiya Jan Sangh’s Shyama Prasad Mookerji’s question in the Indian Legislature as to what the Congress Government was going to do about one third of territory still held by Pakistan, Nehru said: “It is not the property of either India or Pakistan. It belongs to the Kashmiri people.

When Kashmir acceded to India, we made it clear to the leaders of the Kashmiri people that we would ultimately abide by the verdict of their Plebiscite. If they tell us to walk out, I would have no hesitation in quitting. We have taken the issue to United Nations and given our word of honour for a peaceful solution. As a great nation we cannot go back on it. We have left the question for final solution to the people of Kashmir and we are determined to abide by their decision”.

In his statement in the Indian Parliament on Aug 7, 1952, Nehru said: “Let me say clearly that we accept the basic proposition that the future of Kashmir is going to be decided finally by the goodwill and pleasure of her people. The goodwill and pleasure of this Parliament is of no importance in this matter, not because this Parliament does not have the strength to decide the question of Kashmir but because any kind of imposition would be against the principles that this Parliament holds.

Kashmir is very close to our minds and hearts and if by some decree or adverse fortune, ceases to be a part of India, it will be a wrench and a pain and torment for us. If, however, the people of Kashmir do not wish to remain with us, let them go by all means. We will not keep them against their will, however painful it may be to us. I want to stress that it is only the people of Kashmir who can decide the future of Kashmir.

It is not that we have merely said that to the United Nations and to the people of Kashmir, it is our conviction and one that is borne out by the policy that we have pursued, not only in Kashmir but everywhere. Though these five years have meant a lot of trouble and expense and in spite of all we have done, we would willingly leave if it was made clear to us that the people of Kashmir wanted us to go.

However sad we may feel about leaving we are not going to stay against the wishes of the people. We are not going to impose ourselves on them on the point of the bayonet.” :tup:

Today, opposing the subjugation of Kashmiris at bayonet point is called sedition. We have indeed come a long way from India’s early promise of democracy and justice to be shared equally by its people, including with those that might wish to leave the union for reasons of their own.




jawednaqvi@gmail.com



http://www.dawn.com/2010/11/29/how-...isans-are-subverting-his-kashmir-promise.html
 
In a nutshell , the UN Resolution relating to Kashmir has been abrogated by dis-use ?
 
The resolution was passed by United Nations Security Council under chapter VI of UN Charter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council#Resolutions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council#Resolutions
Resolutions passed under Chapter VI of UN charter are considered non binding and have no mandatory enforceability as opposed to the resolutions passed under Chapter VII.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapter_VII_of_the_United_Nations_Charter

So why did Pakistan pass it under Chapter VI and not Chapter VII making it non binding and non enforceable??

End of story. You cannot enforce it, cry as much as you want! Now go have a Pepsi and relax.
 
Yeah, that is what "abrogated by disuse" means :D

Also, Pakistan did not follow the resolution by withdrawing the aggressor forces as demanded by the UN resolutions. So they are the ones responsible for it.
 
The resolution was passed by United Nations Security Council under chapter VI of UN Charter.
Resolutions passed under Chapter VI of UN charter are considered non binding and have no mandatory enforceability as opposed to the resolutions passed under Chapter VII.



So why did Pakistan pass it under Chapter VI and not Chapter VII making it non binding and non enforceable??

End of story. You cannot enforce it, cry as much as you want! Now go have a Pepsi and relax.


Ummmm; now that is an "interesting" fact.
 
THere is a difference. India never said they want kashmir solution on the religious lines but its always pakistan who is desparate to solve Kashmir on religious lines only. Their main agenda is to cleanse Kashmir of non-muslims thats why there was late 1980s kashmir insurgency of killing non-muslims including sikhs as well.

They are not even allowing to build Pandits colony in kashmir who were original occupants of kashmir and due to spleen less attitude of then J&K and Indian government had forced Kashmiris pandits to flee their birth place.

You know, I am not sure if you know the breathe of my knowledge on this subject. So PLEASE, try not to take me as a fool. I've studied your region for 3 decades, I know stuff like you don't know your India's history. I am actually meaning every word I say.

They are not allowing to built a "Pandits" Colony? India didn't allow 91% POPULATION's RIGHT TO VOTE when India overtook Kashmir. Do you think you have have a 1% comparison here to your "not letting them build a Pandits colony" case????

How do you overwrite 91% of a state's population's voting right and call yourself a "democratic India"???? The Kashmir is an issue, and it is where it is today due to India not respecting the 91% populations voting right in the elections before the occupation.

How does ONE King (a Hindu Maharaja), overwrite 91% of his population's right to chose their government, and calls his Hindu affiliated state to take over his state and kill all voting and democracy rights and its been the case since 1948?????? Had you people let the REAL Kashmiri's vote, today, Kashmir would be a bridge between Pakistan and India to establish peace. One of the gorgeous places for both the countries tourists to visit and enjoy, meet each other and have great people to people relationships. And, there wouldn't be these so many wars, terrorism and all the drama going on for 70 years. ALL because the rights of the people weren't respected!!!!
 

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