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The imaginary concept

Dawood Ibrahim

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If in 1400 years the two major sects of our religion have been unable to reconcile their differences, how on earth can an imaginary concept of Muslim Ummah ever exist?
the-imaginary-concept-2fc903e4b67c2514b9c1468bcdb710a1.JPG


By:
D Asghar


24-Dec-16

535

535


The political conflicts of the Middle East are so confusing and convoluted that even the most knowledgeable people are often found scratching their heads. We all know that Iran and Saudi Arabia are the major players who are at odds with one another. The rest of the influential players in the world are there as well, at times openly and often behind the scenes; either trying to reduce the hostilities, or in most cases to fan the flames, and so it rages on.

I have touched on this issue, here at this forum, a few times in the past. Here we are at the end of 2016, and the Middle East is a war zone as usual, with most people still trying to figure out who is fighting with whom and why. The Bush Administration’s wish to remove Saddam Hussein from Iraq by launching the "Operation Enduring Freedom" has been a sheer disaster for the region.

A situation, which could have been handled perhaps in a covert operation, was sold as the "game changer" for the Middle East. The idea was to make Iraq a model for the rest of the Middle East so it could witness the American values of "freedom and democracy." Someone can make a long winded argument that such paradigm shifts take decades to show signs of real change and improvements. But I would very humbly disagree with that line of argument.

A militant group, formerly known and identified as "Al Qaeda" in Iraq emerged as a lethal force that soon renamed itself the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria or (ISIS). From that point onwards, there has been an ongoing battle to get rid of this particular group of the Western world. Let’s not forget the rebels who are fighting the Assad regime in Syria. In this conflict, who is aligned with whom is quite mind numbing.

Similarly, Yemen has its own share of Houthi rebels, and Saudi Arabia is involved in quelling the resistance there with the pretext of protecting its own borders. Russia is trying to protect the Assad regime in Syria. There has been a chaos of epic proportions in Syria, as reported by most credible news sources in the world. As a result, the city of Aleppo is in ruins. Whether it’s the Syrian rebels and the Assad regime, or Saudi Arabia and the Yemeni rebels, these are just some glaring examples of Muslim on Muslim violence.

Thousands of people have lost their lives; thousands have lost their homes and have been forced to migrate to other countries. The so-called Islamic State (ISIS) is in the mix as well, to exert their influence by the exercise of terror. If you turn on your favourite western TV news channels, the newscasters, analysts and panellists debate endlessly on what the potential outcome(s) would be. The complexities of the entire situation are quite nerve wrecking.

Growing up, we were sold the fantasy of a concept called "Muslim Ummah (community)." We were also told that it is the cunning and jealous Non-Muslims who prevent the Ummah to remain united. As a child, I struggled with this fantasy, because most Muslim countries are clustered together and mostly share common boundaries and/or a common language.

As a full blown adult, I totally discredit such an absurd concept. I certainly am not a subscriber of the baseless conspiracy theories either. There never was a Muslim Ummah, to begin with, and there will be no such entity at least in my lifetime. We kill our own coreligionists without any remorse or shame. The really wishful naive believe that all the Muslims should sit on a table and resolve their differences. As if Chad, Niger or Somalia have any say in the happenings of their so called Muslim brethren. Stretching the same argument, I certainly do not see a Caliphate that can ever rule a highly diverse group of Muslim countries in the form that most televangelists try to peddle.

My argument is that we the Muslims as a whole are quite materialistic, often very ruthless and practically averse to the concept of brotherhood. After listening to hours of commentaries from various so-called experts and glancing through many write-ups, one can quickly sum up that we are hopeless beyond any repair.

Before the readers take the strong exception to my highly pessimistic viewpoint, let me ask the readers, a very simple question. If in 1400 years, the two major sects of our religion have been unable to reconcile their differences, how on earth can an imaginary concept of Muslim Ummah ever exist? You do not need to be a PhD in Political Science to figure out that the two giants of the Muslim world can fight with one another because they have the power and will to do so. Simply put, the battle between the two is about power and influence. And please for heaven's sake do not try to convince me that it is all a conspiracy by that wicked, evil West to make these two juvenile schoolboys continue their petty recess squabble, so they can munch their snacks while waiting for the school bell to ring.


http://dailytimes.com.pk/opinion/24-Dec-16/the-imaginary-concept

@tps77 @war&peace @BATMAN @PaklovesTurkiye @Moonlight
 
1- First of all, it is an absurd idea to say that religion unites people...If religion could have united people, then we could have 3/4 countries in the world. That very concept is wrong.
2- Rather people find simililarity with similar cuture way of living than simillar religion. Classic example is Arabs are part of one culture. They have simillar intrest, more or less simillar food habbit and most important thing is shared history to feel pride about. In the same vein, in the modern world, Western world defined their own culture. So if nations would have tried to put emphasis on culture, it could have paid more dividend than the concept of Muslim unity. This Muslim unity or Christian unity is so vague that if you see in today's world, it is the Muslims who are fighting with each other and stake holders of being in war zone. They always takes execuse of US as the culprit while avoiding to make any course correction to their own aspirations.

3- Sometimes back, i saw there is a news about Islamic Anti Terrorism force lead by general of Pakistan...You have to understand, in order to bring peace in Muslim world, you do not need a Muslim force, you just need the intent to stop the violence. Can Arabs and Iran regime and sit together and bring some sanity in their relationship? If yes, then you do not need any Islamic force to fight with.
 
1- First of all, it is an absurd idea to say that religion unites people...If religion could have united people, then we could have 3/4 countries in the world. That very concept is wrong.
2- Rather people find simililarity with similar cuture way of living than simillar religion. Classic example is Arabs are part of one culture. They have simillar intrest, more or less simillar food habbit and most important thing is shared history to feel pride about. In the same vein, in the modern world, Western world defined their own culture. So if nations would have tried to put emphasis on culture, it could have paid more dividend than the concept of Muslim unity. This Muslim unity or Christian unity is so vague that if you see in today's world, it is the Muslims who are fighting with each other and stake holders of being in war zone. They always takes execuse of US as the culprit while avoiding to make any course correction to their own aspirations.

3- Sometimes back, i saw there is a news about Islamic Anti Terrorism force lead by general of Pakistan...You have to understand, in order to bring peace in Muslim world, you do not need a Muslim force, you just need the intent to stop the violence. Can Arabs and Iran regime and sit together and bring some sanity in their relationship? If yes, then you do not need any Islamic force to fight with.
If culture is the factor of division than kindly go and divide India ... there are so many diverse culture Inida ...

Northern dont like southern and vice versa .. kashmiris absolutely do not fill the bill in any case ... so if culture is the factor than divide india in atleast 5 countries ...

Now don't give emotional answers and start derailing the threat ... Give your answer by logic and arguments ..
 
If culture is the factor of division than kindly go and divide India ... there are so many diverse culture Inida ...

Northern dont like southern and vice versa .. kashmiris absolutely do not fill the bill in any case ... so if culture is the factor than divide india in atleast 5 countries ...

Now don't give emotional answers and start derailing the threat ... Give your answer by logic and arguments ..

Personal rants shows someones frustration. Stick to the topic to have rational discussion.

To respond to your question, your question is valid. India is definitely a very special case where there is so much of diversity in terms of culture, tradition, food habits that it is an interesting and developing concept where modern day India is developing into a successful nation.

If you see the history of world war, the war never faught between different religion. Rather it was all from same religion who fought with each other to kill million of people. Same story goes in modern day story. The worst night mare of war in happening in the areas of Muslim population. It is not like common people are very fond of war, rather the lack of the leaders who can see to rise above their own interest is driving power play between different Muslim nations that is leading to massive unrest.
 
If in 1400 years the two major sects of our religion have been unable to reconcile their differences, how on earth can an imaginary concept of Muslim Ummah ever exist?
the-imaginary-concept-2fc903e4b67c2514b9c1468bcdb710a1.JPG


By:
D Asghar


24-Dec-16

535

535


The political conflicts of the Middle East are so confusing and convoluted that even the most knowledgeable people are often found scratching their heads. We all know that Iran and Saudi Arabia are the major players who are at odds with one another. The rest of the influential players in the world are there as well, at times openly and often behind the scenes; either trying to reduce the hostilities, or in most cases to fan the flames, and so it rages on.

I have touched on this issue, here at this forum, a few times in the past. Here we are at the end of 2016, and the Middle East is a war zone as usual, with most people still trying to figure out who is fighting with whom and why. The Bush Administration’s wish to remove Saddam Hussein from Iraq by launching the "Operation Enduring Freedom" has been a sheer disaster for the region.

A situation, which could have been handled perhaps in a covert operation, was sold as the "game changer" for the Middle East. The idea was to make Iraq a model for the rest of the Middle East so it could witness the American values of "freedom and democracy." Someone can make a long winded argument that such paradigm shifts take decades to show signs of real change and improvements. But I would very humbly disagree with that line of argument.

A militant group, formerly known and identified as "Al Qaeda" in Iraq emerged as a lethal force that soon renamed itself the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria or (ISIS). From that point onwards, there has been an ongoing battle to get rid of this particular group of the Western world. Let’s not forget the rebels who are fighting the Assad regime in Syria. In this conflict, who is aligned with whom is quite mind numbing.

Similarly, Yemen has its own share of Houthi rebels, and Saudi Arabia is involved in quelling the resistance there with the pretext of protecting its own borders. Russia is trying to protect the Assad regime in Syria. There has been a chaos of epic proportions in Syria, as reported by most credible news sources in the world. As a result, the city of Aleppo is in ruins. Whether it’s the Syrian rebels and the Assad regime, or Saudi Arabia and the Yemeni rebels, these are just some glaring examples of Muslim on Muslim violence.

Thousands of people have lost their lives; thousands have lost their homes and have been forced to migrate to other countries. The so-called Islamic State (ISIS) is in the mix as well, to exert their influence by the exercise of terror. If you turn on your favourite western TV news channels, the newscasters, analysts and panellists debate endlessly on what the potential outcome(s) would be. The complexities of the entire situation are quite nerve wrecking.

Growing up, we were sold the fantasy of a concept called "Muslim Ummah (community)." We were also told that it is the cunning and jealous Non-Muslims who prevent the Ummah to remain united. As a child, I struggled with this fantasy, because most Muslim countries are clustered together and mostly share common boundaries and/or a common language.

As a full blown adult, I totally discredit such an absurd concept. I certainly am not a subscriber of the baseless conspiracy theories either. There never was a Muslim Ummah, to begin with, and there will be no such entity at least in my lifetime. We kill our own coreligionists without any remorse or shame. The really wishful naive believe that all the Muslims should sit on a table and resolve their differences. As if Chad, Niger or Somalia have any say in the happenings of their so called Muslim brethren. Stretching the same argument, I certainly do not see a Caliphate that can ever rule a highly diverse group of Muslim countries in the form that most televangelists try to peddle.

My argument is that we the Muslims as a whole are quite materialistic, often very ruthless and practically averse to the concept of brotherhood. After listening to hours of commentaries from various so-called experts and glancing through many write-ups, one can quickly sum up that we are hopeless beyond any repair.

Before the readers take the strong exception to my highly pessimistic viewpoint, let me ask the readers, a very simple question. If in 1400 years, the two major sects of our religion have been unable to reconcile their differences, how on earth can an imaginary concept of Muslim Ummah ever exist? You do not need to be a PhD in Political Science to figure out that the two giants of the Muslim world can fight with one another because they have the power and will to do so. Simply put, the battle between the two is about power and influence. And please for heaven's sake do not try to convince me that it is all a conspiracy by that wicked, evil West to make these two juvenile schoolboys continue their petty recess squabble, so they can munch their snacks while waiting for the school bell to ring.


http://dailytimes.com.pk/opinion/24-Dec-16/the-imaginary-concept

@tps77 @war&peace @BATMAN @PaklovesTurkiye @Moonlight


Brother this is a very serious and deep topic and if look on the surface then conclusion rached by the writer is correct ... no one can deny ... but to understand such an important aspect we have to understand the factors deeply .. we have to study the history ... we have to actually analyze the root cause of entire problem ... and we have to segregate and identify who is supporting whom in middle east and the reason behind the support ...

First of all have you ever heard of fourth generation / fifth generation warefare ?? This warefare is not fought by external forces and is not fought by raiding the enemy ... this warefore is based on phycoligal basis ... to use the faultline within a certain a society and to destory it within ...

I will answer all of the questions raised here one by one and then will answer your queries ... but first of all I would like to tell you that you cannot rule out the possibility of conspiracy theory as without conspiracy theory you cannot explain the following :

1) Unconditional US support of KSA despite of being monarchy...
2) Unconditional support of entire west of tiny Israel with no significance to the world ...
3) Despite of so many differences with Irana nd Iran openly challenging US and all west with having weakest economy and military in past decade but still US never invade Iran (or you can alternatively say a shia leadership country)...
4) So USA is keeping alive leaders of both Shia and Sunni countries despite of having so many differences with Iran and KSA being totally against so called US democratic values...
5) Without conspiracy theories how would you explain US support for Free Syrian army (Al-Qaeda with the new name) ...
6) Without conspiracy theory how would you explain destruction of third tower of world trade center ??/

Brother all above issues defies logic and you cannot explain any of the above issues without conspiracy theories .. however, here we have many pro-aethist beilevers so I will keep all my arguments based on worldly knowledge and wisdom keeping aside ahadis, conspiracy theories etc etc ...

First of all we should go back to history ... there was no sunni shia war in history ... Shia and Sunni issue was never escalated to such a level until 19th century ... There were initial 3 civil wars between muslims but they were not based on sect as at that there was no concept of sunni and shia and all of the muslims like to recognize them with the name of muslims ... but after these wars muslims did not had any major civil war based on sect ...

Now I would like to stop here as I dont want to start debate on shia and sunni ... and I would also like to request other muslim brothers to avoid debate on shia and sunni ...

If we never had civil war between sunni and shia war in past then why are we fighting now ??? For answering this we again have to go back into history that how during world war Al-Saud dynasty was used by british to destory muslim unity ... Al-Saud used religion as a tool to mobilize muslims against turk (holder of banner of muslim khilafat) and as a result whole of muslim arab got divided into tiny little states ... Al-Saud was never sincere to religion ,,, as the army loyal to religion (Ikhwans) when begin questioning the arabs links with non-muslim britishers and asked al-saud family to also fight against non-muslims but al-saud not only refused but also masscared Ikhwans ... Ikhwan were religious fighters which helped Al-Saud to capture Saudia Arabia on the promise of Islamic supermacy but unfortnately they were massacared by Al-Saud ...

Britishers not only helped in creation of Saudia Arabia but they have divide the whole arab world in these states ... so strenthending of sunni saddam in shia majority iraq is by the help of USA ...

Now analyze the current situation ...

1) USA has defeated sunni Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and drived but providing them weapons in Syria to fight against Bashar Al Asad ...
2) When Pakistan started operation zarb-e-azab then instead of strethning border control so that terrorists do not flee they left the border posts vacant allowing the terrorist to flee to Afghanistan ...
3) In Syria Bashr-Al-Asad is being cntinously condemn on killing civilians but no one is highlighting the civilians being killed by rebels ...
4) No weapons of mass destruction were found in Iraq ... However, all the rebuilding and oil contracts are with US companies ...
5) Libya neighter had weapons of mass destuction nor does he was tyrant for his own people but west backed rebel killed him and now libya is in fire ...
6) In Syria Iran is fighting USA supported Free Syrian Army but in Yemen USA is pressurizing KSA to stop attacks against houthis and actually support Iran backed Houthi rebels ...
7) Proposals are there to divide Iraq further based on Shia sunni and kurd areas which is against democratic principles of USA that the basis of division should be ethinicity and not religion ....

Isn't all those point conusing ...

No they are not ... Because this all fourth generation warfare .. They know muslims are second biggest religion of the world and will be very strong force if they unite so if they attack on muslims directly muslims will fight back togather and hence divide muslims internally ..

So one of the common factor in all the above conflict is to utlize the faultline (shia sunni conflict) within muslims ... In all the region western forces are empowering the weakone so that they can become powerful to damage the strong ones ... for example in syria shia were in lead so they are empowering sunnis to take over ...

In yemen sunnis are in power so they are supporting shia behind the scenes ...

Last few years back Iran ecnomy was so much damaged that they were not able to face KSA ... Now here comes the drama of setllement and now iran is back in game and now its economy has started to heal ...

Now the overall game plan is to increase shia sunni difference as much as they could to start a war between sunni and shia leading countries i.e. KSA and Iran to suck in other measure muslim countries as well i.e. turkey and Pakistan ...

Have'nt you guys receiving facebook posts, messages and whatapp images about masscare of sunni muslims ... mosque of my area is distributing images of masscare of sunni muslims in aleppo ... but do bomb ask a muslims is he sunni or shia ??? or a bullet ask a man is he muslim or not ... wasn't masscare was done by rebels of shia muslim brothers at the time of capture of alleppo ??? Don't you think our shia brother are getting same type of messages news articles pictures ... infact there might be same injured persons and bodies which would have been shown to both shia and sunnis to increase there anger and claiming that its a sunni / shia massacare but infact it is muslims massacare ...

Why would they like to do so ... Its simple biggest industry of west is weapon industry ... furthermore they need cheap oil ... so its all because of resources ... They want to masimize wealth at the cost of other humans ...

Now about muslim ummah ... Concept of muslim was never about one government ... it was never about one country ... it was not about one foreign policy ... however, it is is about one code ... i.e. Quran ... e it shia and be it sunni ,,, we have one code ,,, we have one quran ,, quran do not divide between shia and muslim ,, quran tell us not to kill unjustfully other human beings be it sunni, shia or even non-muslims .... so all of the killings we see are not approved by islam but it is on the behest of few monarch who want thier rule in the name of religion ,,, be it al-saud or imam khomeni ... how a true follower of islam can order murder of another muslim ...

All the massacare in middle east is due to stubborness of two governments of ksa and iran ,,, the common shia and sunni are being brain washed some upto the extent that they are ready to shake hands with non-muslims and are killing muslims by using waepons provided by non-muslims ...

My request to all muslims ,,, please open your eyes to this grand plan ,,, this grand is prepared by those who want to grab all the resources of the world and muslims are the world most resource rich areas ... why there is no conflit between shia and sunni in far east as there are no resources to be grabbed ... the real resource of those muslim countries are its people ...

May Allah give us hidayahhh

@Peaceful Civilian
@WAJsal

@PARIKRAMA ,@Irfan Baloch ,@HRK ,@Horus ,@WebMaster ,@Manticore ,@waz ,@Jungibaaz ,@Kaptaan ,@Arsalan ,@ajpirzada ,@The Eagle ,@abdulbarijan ,@unleashed ,@shimshali ,@Emmie ,@nair ,@scorpionx ,@AUSTERLITZ ,@hellfire ,@saiyan0321 ,@Kambojaric ,@krash ,@JamD ,@shah1398 ,@anant_s ,@Mr.Meap ,@Slav Defence ,@notorious_eagle ,@balixd ,@Gufi ,@Oscar ,@Icarus ,@Joe Shearer ,@Levina ,@That Guy
@Neutron ,@Side-Winder ...

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/cpec-and-its-benefits-to-gb.447817/#ixzz4TlaQgzC8


Personal rants shows someones frustration. Stick to the topic to have rational discussion.

To respond to your question, your question is valid. India is definitely a very special case where there is so much of diversity in terms of culture, tradition, food habits that it is an interesting and developing concept where modern day India is developing into a successful nation.

If you see the history of world war, the war never faught between different religion. Rather it was all from same religion who fought with each other to kill million of people. Same story goes in modern day story. The worst night mare of war in happening in the areas of Muslim population. It is not like common people are very fond of war, rather the lack of the leaders who can see to rise above their own interest is driving power play between different Muslim nations that is leading to massive unrest.
So your initial theory that it is absurd idea that religion unites people is wrong so there could be anything which can unite people ,,, it could be religion ,, ethinicity ,,, culture, or just a piece of land ,,, it all depands on people of the land ,,, we Pakistani are the example of religion being the binding force and so is Israel ,,, USA is example of piece of land being the binding force .... whereas in case of Germany is ethinicity .....

You might have your own belief and i have my own belief and whatever a combine belief of a society is it will prevail to unite that society .... and there will always be a minority which will challenge the common belief ... the external forces will utilize those minorities as per their benefits ,,, as in the case of Pakistan few minotrities like asma jhangir, najam sethi and other such morons are being used to advertise western agenda that Pakistan is a failed state as it was formed on the basis of religion ,,, which is against belief of common Pakistani citizen like me ...
 
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Well you see the problem lies here divided and rule. Muslims die be it Sunni or shia while their leader live pampered life

WE know the mother of Al Qaida or others

Hate can be tackled step by step if our scholars instead of Accusing each sec as a kafir should promote each sec as brothers and sisters


In the end ALLAH gaved every human beings a thing called Brian. To think before you act. I guess they put that wisdom aside and bring their emotions of hate 1st. All is possible if we can think positively to our brothers and sisters regardless of their sects religion


May ALLAH make it easy for all the Muslims AMEEN
 
Personal rants shows someones frustration. Stick to the topic to have rational discussion.
I don't see any personal rant in his comment rather he raised an excellent question..you should provide a logical answer to that.
First of all, it is an absurd idea to say that religion unites people...If religion could have united people, then we could have 3/4 countries in the world. That very concept is wrong.
Well your statement is against the factual observation.
 
Nationalism is always a binding force....not religion.
 
Look at the past. Even take example of Pakistan.
Then what would you say about yemen syria iraq ... They were same nTions from 1000s of tears but now killing each other for their religious belief ...
 
Then what would you say about yemen syria iraq ... They were same nTions from 1000s of tears but now killing each other for their religious belief ...
As far as Arabs example , being a Pakistan try enter in their circle...you will feel the difference. Iranian, Turkish, Japenese , Chinese (Hans) Pashtuns, Punjabi,Sindhi, Baluch and list goes on.
 
As far as Arabs example , being a Pakistan try enter in their circle...you will feel the difference. Iranian, Turkish, Japenese , Chinese (Hans) Pashtuns, Punjabi,Sindhi, Baluch and list goes on.
I quoted example of anti nstionalism instances ... Nowdayys it is popular but it is not always ... It is in most of the cases ... Example pakistani is no nation if you remove islam out of it ....
 
I quoted example of anti nstionalism instances ... Nowdayys it is popular but it is not always ... It is in most of the cases ... Example pakistani is no nation if you remove islam out of it ....
In reality , I would say its Pak army and lame democracy is binding force rather then Islam. Personally , I wouldn't say Islam play any binding force among Pakistanis people.
 

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