‘The EU cannot defend Europe’: NATO chief

[Akritas]

Why Europeans always have the delusion of Russia's invasion?

Europe lived under two illusions.
The first is, since it started handing over the keys to its energy dependence to a single provider, which alone was not solvent.
The second is that in the name of economic globalization, it destroyed values and institutions that brought it to the position it was in, and one of them was military power.
So this combination underestimated not only military threats but also other threats, such as that of border security.

 

[Zsari]

The US wants Europe to strenghten its armed forces. Calling Europe a vasal of the US is just a knee jerk reaction. The US needs to focus on the Pacific and China, and let Europe handle Russia. We are just not up to it after decades of neglecting our armed forced while Russia was rebuilding its military.
It doesnt mean Europe cant defend itself against Russia in Europe, which it can simply by using its airforce. But we do not hold endless amounts of hardware to ship to the ukrainian army to defend itself against Russia in this major artillery ping-pong match.

I just wish NATO reacted sending planes to Ukraine on day one calling Putins bluff. Let Russia worry about MAD insted.

US wants the Europeans to pay more of the NATO expenses that it controls. If EU wants independence, then it first need an army of its own that it fully commands.

 

[MeFishToo]

US wants the Europeans to pay more of the NATO expenses that it controls. If EU wants independence, then it first need an army of its own that it fully commands.

What “NATO expenses”? Each country runs it own defence and contribute to NATO with whatever it has. Its just a mutual defence pact.
That being said, most european countries do need to increase defence spendings. My country could, if hard pressed, contribute with a mixed armor/mechanized brigade, and a few light infantry battalion sized battle groups supported by 30 F-16 fighters and 5 frigates/small destroyers. Not exactly something Putin needs to worry about.

 

[MeFishToo]

its funny how the same people arguing that Russia is weak, its entire economy is smaller then a german city blablabla....

while at the same time being in existential panic, and trying to massively increase defense spending... well which is it?

Also looks like the US propaganda machine has copy pasted its vietnam era "domino theory" propaganda..

It was theorized that if vietnam fell, all of asia would become commie and the apocalypse wouldn happen according to western propaganda at the time.

Same story here. Russia literally handed back half of eastern europe that it conquered with 10s of millions of casualties for free. The only thing it asked for and was agreed with was not to expand nato towards Russia, and keep the independent states as a buffer....

Historians will laugh at how stupid western people are to always believe everything their government media tells them, and how that was the reason for the downfall of western dominance.

You seem to mistake Russia with the USSR, as do Putin. Maybe youre paying to much attention to russian state sponsered propaganda.

 

[K_Bin_W]

Probably has to do something with the Cold War. Many eastern countries were eager to get away from Russian influence.


If the EU and Ukraine can contain Russian, the U.S. and allies in Asia can handle China.

Amreeka should 1st contain NoKo forget China that's too big.

 

[Beny Karachun]

Why Europeans always have the delusion of Russia's invasion?

Maybe because Russia is literally threatening to do so?

 

[Beny Karachun]

its funny how the same people arguing that Russia is weak, its entire economy is smaller then a german city blablabla....

while at the same time being in existential panic, and trying to massively increase defense spending... well which is it?

Also looks like the US propaganda machine has copy pasted its vietnam era "domino theory" propaganda..

It was theorized that if vietnam fell, all of asia would become commie and the apocalypse wouldn happen according to western propaganda at the time.

Same story here. Russia literally handed back half of eastern europe that it conquered with 10s of millions of casualties for free. The only thing it asked for and was agreed with was not to expand nato towards Russia, and keep the independent states as a buffer....

Historians will laugh at how stupid western people are to always believe everything their government media tells them, and how that was the reason for the downfall of western dominance.

If Russia didn't have nukes Moscow would have had a NATO flag above it long ago

 

[Paul2]

@Paul2 @mike2000 is back input from actual people in Europe would be appreciated here.

I agree, but I am not an average European.

An average European whose opinion matters is really not somebody you can easily characterise.

EU's opinions now vary from "Invade Russia now!" to hysterical panic.

I knew some Tory connected upstarts who tell it was a complete shock for UK elites to see Russia invading.

I will call UK elites a bit more "perceptive" than autistic Central Europeans, so I will also tell that the surprise for EU core members was real too.

German elites are cynical bastards, but even they were taken aback by brutality, and are now weighting the "what if Russians are doing this for real?" probability.

More than half are still completely oblivious. Some imbeciles say "papa Amerika will come to save us", some foolishly think that EU NATO members can defend themselves when most of them have less tanks than a single Russian tank regiment.

 

[RescueRanger]

I agree, but I am not an average European.

An average European whose opinion matters is really not somebody you can easily characterise.

EU's opinions now vary from "Invade Russia now!" to hysterical panic.

I knew some Tory connected upstarts who tell it was a complete shock for UK elites to see Russia invading.

I will call UK elites a bit more "perceptive" than autistic Central Europeans, so I will also tell that the surprise for EU core members was real too.

German elites are cynical bastards, but even they were taken aback by brutality, and are now weighting the "what if Russians are doing this for real?" probability.

More than half are still completely oblivious. Some imbeciles say "papa Amerika will come to save us", some foolishly think that EU NATO members can defend themselves when most of them have less tanks than a single Russian tank regiment.

Thank you very much for your excellent assessment.

 

[Beny Karachun]

I agree, but I am not an average European.

An average European whose opinion matters is really not somebody you can easily characterise.

EU's opinions now vary from "Invade Russia now!" to hysterical panic.

I knew some Tory connected upstarts who tell it was a complete shock for UK elites to see Russia invading.

I will call UK elites a bit more "perceptive" than autistic Central Europeans, so I will also tell that the surprise for EU core members was real too.

German elites are cynical bastards, but even they were taken aback by brutality, and are now weighting the "what if Russians are doing this for real?" probability.

More than half are still completely oblivious. Some imbeciles say "papa Amerika will come to save us", some foolishly think that EU NATO members can defend themselves when most of them have less tanks than a single Russian tank regiment.

Tank on tank battles are rare. EU is armed with so many Spike ATGMs that outrange everything Russia has it's just hilarious. Tens of thousands of those. Russian tanks are practically useless against them, considering the losses Russia endured by inferior NLAW, Javelin and Stugna missiles.

NATO would easily overwhelm Russia.

European tanks are much more advanced, I'd say even 500 tanks equipped with APS are better than 5000 Russian tanks in such a war. Russia's tank force is pretty much crippled anyways.

 

[Zsari]

What “NATO expenses”? Each country runs it own defence and contribute to NATO with whatever it has. Its just a mutual defence pact.
That being said, most european countries do need to increase defence spendings. My country could, if hard pressed, contribute with a mixed armor/mechanized brigade, and a few light infantry battalion sized battle groups supported by 30 F-16 fighters and 5 frigates/small destroyers. Not exactly something Putin needs to worry about.

Contribution, expenses. Same difference.

 

[Paul2]

Tank on tank battles are rare. EU is armed with so many Spike ATGMs that outrange everything Russia has it's just hilarious. Tens of thousands of those. Russian tanks are practically useless against them, considering the losses Russia endured by inferior NLAW, Javelin and Stugna missiles.

NATO would easily overwhelm Russia.

European tanks are much more advanced, I'd say even 500 tanks equipped with APS are better than 5000 Russian tanks in such a war. Russia's tank force is pretty much crippled anyways.

1. Except there are not a single serially manufactured APS fitted tank yet.

2. How do you drop that ATGM team to its AO? You still need armour to survive the artillery firewall in front of the tank unit.

3. EU NATO members rely on advanced helicopters instead of fixed wing for search&destroy against armour, but Russia has tons if SPAGs

4. EU NATO members has very very few F35s, and most of their F16, and F18 are ancient.

5. Even combined EU airforce will likely not be able to stop a force of 200,000 from overrunning at least half of Central Europe before it starts to spread out, and digging in.

6. After a force of that size spreads out, and digs in, you will have to throw raw volume of firepower at it to dislodge it, or you throw infantry. EU nations have neither, they are too invested into few pieces of advanced hardware.

 

[MeFishToo]

Tank on tank battles are rare. EU is armed with so many Spike ATGMs that outrange everything Russia has it's just hilarious. Tens of thousands of those. Russian tanks are practically useless against them, considering the losses Russia endured by inferior NLAW, Javelin and Stugna missiles.

NATO would easily overwhelm Russia.

European tanks are much more advanced, I'd say even 500 tanks equipped with APS are better than 5000 Russian tanks in such a war. Russia's tank force is pretty much crippled anyways.

I believe youre right. I think the war in Ukraine have shown us that major tank battles are history. Its obvious. Most russian exercise vidoes about the almighty russian army shows us massive numbers if tanks rolling across plains, but we have not seen that in Ukraine.
The european armies are are designed for defence. They would not overwhelm Russia in offensive operations, but they would definitely prevent Russia from maneuvering armor like its WW2.
I think western airpower would be the main factor in such a conflict. They would simply deny Russia maneuvering, while striking anything remotely close to being artillery. I cant even imagine what volleys of Brimstone like missiles would do to a russian battalion tactical group.

 

[Beny Karachun]

I believe youre right. I think the war in Ukraine have shown us that major tank battles are history. Its obvious. Most russian exercise vidoes about the almighty russian army shows us massive numbers if tanks rolling across plains, but we have not seen that in Ukraine.
The european armies are are designed for defence. They would not overwhelm Russia in offensive operations, but they would definitely prevent Russia from maneuvering armor like its WW2.
I think western airpower would be the main factor in such a conflict. They would simply deny Russia maneuvering, while striking anything remotely close to being artillery. I cant even imagine what volleys of Brimstone like missiles would do to a russian battalion tactical group.

Also, massive amounts of tanks need massive amounts of logistics and Ukraine has shown that it's a double edged sword.

 

[MeFishToo]

Contribution, expenses. Same difference.

Except its not NATO expenses. NATO doesnt hold any power over a member country, and doesnt control the armed forces of member states.

1. Except there are not a single serially manufactured APS fitted tank yet.

2. How do you drop that ATGM team to its AO? You still need armour to survive the artillery firewall in front of the tank unit.

3. EU NATO members rely on advanced helicopters instead of fixed wing for search&destroy against armour, but Russia has tons if SPAGs

4. EU NATO members has very very few F35s, and most of their F16, and F18 are ancient.

5. Even combined EU airforce will likely not be able to stop a force of 200,000 from overrunning at least half of Central Europe before it starts to spread out, and digging in.

6. After a force of that size spreads out, and digs in, you will have to throw raw volume of firepower at it to dislodge it, or you throw infantry. EU nations have neither, they are too invested into few pieces of advanced hardware.

Considering a russian force this size couldnt overrun eastern Ukraine after months of preperation, I think its safe to say a Russian force of 200.000 wouldnt come close to overrun anything in Central Europe.
Russia needs to take the train into battle. Europe would have time to recruit and train entire armies and put them in defensive positions before Russia is good to go.