The enemy and Pakistan Army

[lkozhi]

One wonders when Kasab & co took a pleasure cruise right up and into India Gate, what were the supreme sena and associated services were twiddling......may be they were frozen in their cold start marker or ended up in an operation theatre bestowed with the surgical strikes ...however driving over their own mines must have killed the factious appetite for hot pursuits....but hey, Indians are heading for the moon with a stop over at UNSC, poor Pakistan is the last thing on their minds so stop twiddling with those anxious thumbs. !!!

same place where your army headquarters was attacked and mehran and .... It is easy to throw a stone but the result played well in to our hands. World saw it live and that helped us in the long run.

 

[KS]

The time and place in this case is for us to decide.

I know you are waiting for the "right moment" Rahman Malik style.

 

[Joe Shearer]

And here we are this glorious morning, with bright sunshine, birds singing, and as a quick look outside seems to indicate, no Sorkh Razil on the flag post. What a wonderful sleep, refreshing, rejuvenating (I now feel like a sprightly Edwardian, no longer a ponderous, portent-laden Victorian), and the insults come bubbling to my lips. My heart is full of laughter, my eyes alight with amusement, my eyes slightly moist with the tears of mirth which squeezed themselves out, my sides gently throbbing with the ache of a dear, familiar stitch in the sides....

Amazing what reading the mail that was exchanged overnight can do.

Thank you, good people, for helping the world be a better place. What would I do without the youth brigade on PDF?

 

[MilSpec]

One wonders when Kasab & co took a pleasure cruise right up and into India Gate, what were the supreme sena and associated services were twiddling......may be they were frozen in their cold start marker or ended up in an operation theatre bestowed with the surgical strikes ...however driving over their own mines must have killed the factious appetite for hot pursuits....but hey, Indians are heading for the moon with a stop over at UNSC, poor Pakistan is the last thing on their minds so stop twiddling with those anxious thumbs. !!!

Indians were considerate, patient to avoid to get into a war like scenario with pak. If you and (hopefully not your leadership) perceives this as a weakness, then probably you should take your chance. Be in line for the next boat that ISI's send, maybe you might shape history.

As far as fear is concerned, i do fear conflict with pakistan, surgical strikes, all of it is fearful for me. I have family,many relatives and thriving businesses in India. No matter how many days the conflict is sustained by Pak, Indian losses will always be higher.

Pakistan certainly is very capable, but the military is not capable of pressing the nuke key, because once that happens and there is Mutual destruction, Pak Army looses. Pak army has had the illustrious reputation of an army that owns a country, why would they give that up just for some conflict.

As from the OP, it's clear, Pakistan will continue to live under the Indian boogeyman syndrome.

 

[RazPaK]

And here we are this glorious morning, with bright sunshine, birds singing, and as a quick look outside seems to indicate, no Sorkh Razil on the flag post. What a wonderful sleep, refreshing, rejuvenating (I now feel like a sprightly Edwardian, no longer a ponderous, portent-laden Victorian), and the insults come bubbling to my lips. My heart is full of laughter, my eyes alight with amusement, my eyes slightly moist with the tears of mirth which squeezed themselves out, my sides gently throbbing with the ache of a dear, familiar stitch in the sides....

Amazing what reading the mail that was exchanged overnight can do.

Thank you, good people, for helping the world be a better place. What would I do without the youth brigade on PDF?

Dear senior citizen of PDF,


Please tell us why your country was making such big claims of surgical strikes and yet has crawled back into it's hole. We are waiting. I am waiting. Please give us an answer.

 

[Rig Vedic]

Dear senior citizen of PDF,


Please tell us why your country was making such big claims of surgical strikes and yet has crawled back into it's hole. We are waiting. I am waiting. Please give us an answer.

Why should India do anything when you are doing such a splendid job yourself, without any assistance.

Similar to how Pak was very much hoping for Indian boots on the ground in Afghanistan, but was disappointed. But the lack of Indian boots does not mean the Afghan people dislike and distrust you any less.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Dear senior citizen of PDF,


Please tell us why your country was making such big claims of surgical strikes and yet has crawled back into it's hole. We are waiting. I am waiting. Please give us an answer.

For starters my friend

Lets thank Allah that saner minds prevailed and war was avoided. If the IAF did carry out surgical strikes, you could be damn sure that PAF would have replied with strikes of their own. No way to say how much things could have escalated. Thank God there were cooler minds on both sides of the border.

 

[RazPaK]

For starters my friend

Lets thank Allah that saner minds prevailed and war was avoided. If the IAF did carry out surgical strikes, you could be damn sure that PAF would have replied with strikes of their own. No way to say how much things could have escalated. Thank God there were cooler minds on both sides of the border.

I agree with you sir,


I rather not see a war in which many civilians would end up casualties.

However, I am against all this Indian propaganda and chest thumping.

It gets on my nerves, and I am by no means a military man nor am I a saint.

 

[KS]

Surgical strikes on Pak serve no purpose other than uniting your country razpak. And that is the last thing we want. You guys are doing things, what we should be doing , pretty much yourselves.

 

[Rig Vedic]

I agree with you sir,


I rather not see a war in which many civilians would end up casualties.

However, I am against all this Indian propagating and chest thumping.

It gets on my nerves, and I am by no means a military man nor am I a saint.

Good, on that more mellow note, I shall leave the thread.

 

[Bang Galore]

And who is going to make Pakistan stand down, disband and disarm it. One thing is certain it certainly ain't going to be India, she simply lacks the military and diplomatic muscle to force Pakistan to stand down and disarm. Your General Staff is quite aware of this fact, and that is why it has ensured that things don't heat up with Pakistan. You need to get off this high horse of pretending to be scary, because believe me you are not and most importantly you don't scare Pakistan.



Well India will have to adjust to this fact my friend, the chapter has closed and your military has accepted this fact. This is why i believe both IA and PA need to engage in 1 on 1 talks to discuss the nuclear issue.



I will say it again, India lacks the military or diplomatic muscle required to remove Pakistan from the equation. If she did, believe me she would have removed Pakistan from the equation long ago.

India does not have to worry about making Pakistan stand down, Pakistan does that brilliantly itself. Lets just take a look at what Pakistan has done for its interests vis-a-vis India. Most agree that Pakistan's primary aim (I'm not taking crazy ideas of destruction of India/hoisting Pakistani flag on red fort etc into account) is to get a settlement on Kashmir, one that is in favour of Pakistan. What is it exactly that Pakistan has done on that score? When Vajpayee embarked on his Lahore bus yatra, Pakistan's position on Kashmir was probably at it's best; the nuclear weapons granted unprecedented parity, Kashmir was still burning & Pakistan had on the Indian side, a PM wanting to make peace, indeed believing that it could be done. Any settlement in1999-2000 would have (most probably) included some land transfers. Kargil ended that idea. The Pakistan army, the saviour of India territorial integrity...the delicious irony! The coup which followed, the terrorist attack on the Indian parliament of 2001 & the attack on the army families in 2002 made sure that nothing happened during the intervening period. The 2001 attacks in America was a good stroke of luck for India because it made everyone more receptive to allegations of Pakistan being a state sponsor of terrorism. Only towards the end of 2005-06 did backroom channels come up with an outline for settlement of Kashmir, only this time involving no land transfers but with Pakistan having a bigger say. A change in government in Pakistan to a civilian one changed matters because they decided that some demonstrations in Kashmir meant that they could push for more. The Mumbai attacks of 2008 followed which effectively nixed any negotiations on Kashmir till date. The intervening period since 1999 has seen India's economy outpace Pakistan's substantially making Pakistan's position more & more unequal. Where does that leave your "core" issue? You are being effectively forced to stand down from your positions which grows even weaker with every passing year.

In view of the above, it may be more prudent to suggest that Pakistan has no bigger enemy than Pakistan itself.

 

[RazPaK]

Good, on that more mellow note, I shall leave the thread.

It doesn't matter to me.

Get your frustrations out here. God knows in the real world you will have to keep them suppressed.

 

[Rig Vedic]

It doesn't matter to me.

Get your frustrations out here. God knows in the real world you will have to keep them suppressed.

Jeez I thought you had calmed down, but you turn around again snarling like a pit bull. Anyway, ta ta.

 

[RazPaK]

Jeez I thought you had calmed down, but you turn around again snarling like a pit bull. Anyway, ta ta.

I am really not that aggressive of a person, but If your countrymen are talking about subduing Pakistan, then you know should my standard response. It's not in the reach of India, or even the US.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Pakistan has already started standing down.

Can you please give me a few examples Good Sir. Name me a couple of instances where in the face of Indian demands, Pakistan backed off and accepted Indian's demands.

There is not just a single way to achieve objectives. Over the last decade, Pakistan has continuously reduced its demand/rhetoric against India.

That more has to do with Pakistan's priorities shifting to her Western borders, and also some of our misguided leaders whom are under the spell that Indian leaders want peace.

Regardless of whether you believe it was done as a goodwill gesture, policy makers know that Pakistan has been forced to do this.

Thats just good speculation Sir served for empty chest thumping for the domestic audience. Your policy makers and public likes to believe that, but unfortunately that is not backed by any evidence or logic.

Economic disparity has led Pakistan to be left far behind when it comes to getting things done in the global order. An example can be Musharraf publicly asking to be treated on the same level as India in the global fora!

India is 7 times bigger than Pakistan, thus it is obvious that her economy and military budget would be 7 times bigger than Pakistan's. The reason why India is slowly becoming the darling of west is because of the Indian market which consists of 1.2 billion consumers and in hopes of using India as a counterweight against China.

This coupled with economic disparity also makes for military budgets against which even minimum deterrence will be hard to achieve.

The strategy of minimum credible deterrence has worked quite well for Pakistan

The results are there to see. Pakistan has been backing down. Unable to conjure up the resources needed to keep matching India in the level of minimum deterrence which initself has been constantly reducing for Pakistan! What PA deemed minimum deterrence 2 decades back was much more than what it considers minimum deterrence today!

Pray tell me, when was the last time Pakistan backed off either diplomatically or militarily against India? The minimum deterrence has worked quite well for Pakistan, that is why there has not been any war. An Indian airstrike carried without any impunity or IA/BSF firing mortars and artillery shells inside Pakistan without impunity would equate to Pakistan backing down. But that has not happened, every time Indian Forces have acted belligerent Pakistani Forces have replied in kind. You would have a better argument that India has successfully managed to make Bangladesh, Nepal or Bhutan back down. You can mock the minimum credible deterrence all you want, but on ground it has worked wonders for Pakistan and i am a man who believes that 'Actions speak louder than words'.

It is not an unreasonable expectation that PA will stand down with increasing gap! To the point that the Pakistani public will question whether in the face of insurmountable odds in military capability and diplomatic heft, is Pakistan's continued enemity with India justified? Or are we wasting money with the military buying these tanks!

Good statement for domestic consumption, but holds no weight behind it.

The question the Indian public should be asking is why with all these billions spent, the balance of power is still the same in the Indo-Pak scenario. India still cannot punish Pakistan for actions she considers unacceptable and naughty. The sheer frustration is quite visible on the IA as it is trying to implement new doctrines in hopes that it might work against Pakistan, and deliver the quick victory the masses and the political masters want. If India could punish Pakistan as you state India can, believe me her reaction would have been very different after the Mumbai attacks. Lots of noise was made from the Indian side, but nothing tangible came off it.

Now how to ensure that this economic disparity keeps increasing at an increasing rate - that is the key question!

That is something your war planners have already executed. Support Pakistan specific terrorist groups with weapons and money to keep the instability going, but not to the extent where it risks the collapse of the State, which indirectly ensures that the economy stays in the dump. Thus IMO, India has delivered a master stroke, some of my fellow countrymen are just too dumb to see this.