The Chamar Regiment

[Shabaz Sharif]

The point being attempted to be made therefore is ..?

That chamar regiment exist even today, just name is changed. Research more before creating threads.

 

[Nassr]

Chamar in Punjab is used with a pronounced negative euphemism for a person. Probably this is the reason that the name was changed to SLI.

 

[third eye]

That chamar regiment exist even today, just name is changed. Research more before creating threads.

I dont need advice & least of all from the likes of you on what I should do.

For the record, both these Regiments were raised separately. The Sikh LI was raised in 41 while the Chamar Regt was raised later.

Its just not a name change.

Troops for Sikh LI were & are drawn ONLY from the Sikh community while the Chamar Regt drew from different regions.

The Sikh Light Infantry previously known as The Mazabhi and Ramdasia Sikh Regiment Its name was changed to the Sikh Light Infantry in 1944. The Sikh Light Infantry is the successor unit to theMazhabi Sikh Pioneers 23rd, 32nd and 34th Sikh Pioneers.

The Sikh Light Infantry inherited the battle honours, colours and traditions of the Mazhabi Sikh Pioneers on its merging with a few Ramdasia companies in 1941

Similarity ?

 

[third eye]

Chamar in Punjab is used with a pronounced negative euphemism for a person. Probably this is the reason that the name was changed to SLI.

Refer post 18 above

 

[Nassr]

I dont need advice & least of all from the likes of you on what I should do.

For the record, both these Regiments were raised separately. The Sikh LI was raised in 41 while the Chamar Regt was raised later.

Its just not a name change.

Troops for Sikh LI were & are drawn ONLY from the Sikh community while the Chamar Regt drew from different regions.

The Sikh Light Infantry previously known as The Mazabhi and Ramdasia Sikh Regiment Its name was changed to the Sikh Light Infantry in 1944. The Sikh Light Infantry is the successor unit to theMazhabi Sikh Pioneers 23rd, 32nd and 34th Sikh Pioneers.

The Sikh Light Infantry inherited the battle honours, colours and traditions of the Mazhabi Sikh Pioneers on its merging with a few Ramdasia companies in 1941

Similarity ?

These excerpts are taken from a book "Untouchable Soldiers: The Maharas and the Mazhbis" written by Ardythe Basham. How and why the regiment’s name was changed to Sikh Light Infantry due to various objections has also been highlighted.

 

[Armstrong]

How do you differentiate a Butt from a Arian,a Rajput from a Chaudary and a Jatt

Biradri system is a less severe form of Caste system.

Usually our complexions, our love for food, our happy-go-lucky attitude, our pot bellies & often a times our balding scalps do the differentiation for us !

 

[cloud_9]

Usually our complexions, our love for food, our happy-go-lucky attitude, our pot bellies & often a times our balding scalps do the differentiation for us !

That's a Butt vs Normal People thing.

How about a Butt vs Rajput/Jatt/Arian (in specifics)

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

The Raising of the Chamar Regiment.

Many distinguished officers like General Ayub Khan served in the Chamar regiment.

Field Marshal General Muhammad Ayub Khan HJ, N.Pk, H.Pb, Psc was born on 14 May 1907. He was selected for Royal Military Academy Sand Hurst in 1922 and got commission on 2nd Feb 1928. He joined the 1st Battalion of the 14 Punjab regiment (Sherdils), later known as 5 Punjab Regiment. He was made Commander-in-Chief of the Pakistan Army on January 17, 1951, succeeding General Sir Douglas Gracey, thus becoming the first native Pakistani General to hold this prestigious position. 

Yours is a troll post. Not sure why you feel to post this.

Untouchable is just one act of classification. Humans do find ways to create classes to feel superior, it may be based on economics, color, region, inheritance, history or whatever be an easier way to earn superiority. You can see ahmadis, muhajirs, shias, hindus in your own country. You can see sunnis to be more proud on whatever and see others in disdain. You can see more rich class looking down on poor. Can pakistan president be non muslim? Isn't it a sort of political/administrative untouchability?

You didn't expand the horizon of your thinking but further narrows it down to score a point against some entity. This is one another example of how you want to downgrade indian culture and then feel superior.

You may do so...you dont have to be an exception. I was just replying to a good post made by @Armstrong

LMAO google shia and mujahir notable people... include several COAS,Presidents,pms etc

 

[Nassr]

Yours is a troll post. Not sure why you feel to post this.

Untouchable is just one act of classification. Humans do find ways to create classes to feel superior, it may be based on economics, color, region, inheritance, history or whatever be an easier way to earn superiority. You can see ahmadis, muhajirs, shias, hindus in your own country. You can see sunnis to be more proud on whatever and see others in disdain. You can see more rich class looking down on poor. Can pakistan president be non muslim? Isn't it a sort of political/administrative untouchability?

You didn't expand the horizon of your thinking but further narrows it down to score a point against some entity. This is one another example of how you want to downgrade indian culture and then feel superior.

You may do so...you dont have to be an exception. I was just replying to a good post made by @Armstrong

Attempts to hide a reality through accusatory counters does not hide the reality. It only brings out the diminishing intellectuals returns.

 

[POKEMON12]

LMAO google shia and mujahir notable people... include several COAS,Presidents,pms etc

Mayabati (chamar) has been CM of Uttar Ptadesh twice, can we say chamars in UP dont face social discrimination?

Going by the same logic many muslims in India has occupied pioneer positions like president etc, why so much cry about minorities then.

Be logical.

 

[third eye]

Field Marshal General Muhammad Ayub Khan HJ, N.Pk, H.Pb, Psc was born on 14 May 1907. He was selected for Royal Military Academy Sand Hurst in 1922 and got commission on 2nd Feb 1928. He joined the 1st Battalion of the 14 Punjab regiment (Sherdils), later known as 5 Punjab Regiment. He was made Commander-in-Chief of the Pakistan Army on January 17, 1951, succeeding General Sir Douglas Gracey, thus becoming the first native Pakistani General to hold this prestigious position. 

This should help.. I am pasting excerpts only.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

Comment: Ayub Khan’s appointment

Mr Gohar Ayub admits that Ayub Khan was a colonel in 1947. He gives the example of General JN Chaudhuri who was also a colonel in 1947 and went on to become the Indian army chief. The fact is that General JN Chaudhri did become the Chief of Army Staff of the Indian Army, but on November 19, 1962, full 11 years and 11 months after Ayub Khan became Pakistan’s army chief! In his memoirs Glimpses into the Corridors of Power, Mr Gohar Ayub admits that his father was of the opinion that the rank of a full colonel was the most he could attain during British control.

The promotion from colonel to general in less than four years for Ayub Khan had strategic consequences for Pakistan, as Ayub Khan had neither attained the experience or the gravitas needed to do justice to the office of the Commander-in-Chief of Pakistan Army. His shortcomings became apparent during the 1965 War into which he had led the country, thanks to the ill thought and badly executed ‘Operation Gibraltar’. Compare this to the Indian Army. Field Marshal Kodandera ‘Kipper’ Madappa Cariappa, who was its first native army chief, was the senior most Hindu officer serving in the British Indian Army on partition. He was the first Indian officer to be given command of a unit (by the British in 1942) in 200 years of the British Raj. For his military exploits against the Japanese as division commander of the 26th Division, Cariappa was given the Order of the British Empire (OBE). Ayub Khan had the honour of serving under him as a colonel in the Frontier Brigade Group in 1946.
.................................................

Mr Gohar Ayub denies that the British gave Ayub Khan a horrible Annual Confidential Report (ACR) for timidity and refusal to participate in combat in Burma in World War II. Furthermore, he states, “Ayub Khan commanded 1st Assam Regiment from January 4 to December 27, 1945 in the Burma Campaign during which the battalion participated in heavy fighting till the Japanese surrender in mid-1945.”

Both of the above claims made by him are false and untrue. Ayub Khan’s timidity and refusal to participate in combat in World War II is an established fact. AH Amin and Dr Ayesha Siddiqa Agha, who are the only defence analysts and military historians in Pakistan of international stature, testify to this. Reviewing Shuja Nawaz’s book on Pakistan Army, Crossed Swords, in Newsline magazine in August 2008, Dr Ayesha states, “In fact, he completely ignores the information that Ayub Khan had received a bad ACR from his bosses prior to the partition of India and had become a general through machination.” Furthermore, there are written testimonies in this regard from Lieutenant Colonel Parson and Lieutenant Colonel Mohatram who served in the same unit as Ayub Khan in Burma. The former in his presentation, ‘Battle of Kohima’, in 1984 categorically stated that, “Ayub Khan refused to command the regiment on the grounds that its men were no longer fit to carry on the battle and that he requested that he be sent back to India.” Lieutenant Colonel Parson’s revelations were published in the Daily Telegraph of Calcutta as well in Daily News of Karachi on April 28, 1984. From here the story gets really weird. Major General Joginder Singh, who was Ayub Khan’s battalion mate, asserts in his book Behind the Scenes (1993) that Ayub Khan was not considered fit to command his parent Punjab Regiment and was relegated to serving in Chamar Regiment, which was disbanded after the war ended. The point is that Ayub Khan did not serve in the prestigious Assam Regiment, which Gohar Ayub claims he did! For more on this issue and on Quaid-e-Azam’s order to transfer and freeze Ayub Khan’s career, I recommend the readers to read Major General Sher Ali’s The Story of Soldiering and Politics in India and Pakistan, Air Commodore Sajjad Haider’s Flight of the Falcon and Hasan Abbas’s Pakistan’s Drift into Extremism.

Also:

Chamar Regiment

 

[SQ8]

Dr Ayesha states, “In fact, he completely ignores the information that Ayub Khan had received a bad ACR from his bosses prior to the partition of India and had become a general through machination.” Furthermore, there are written testimonies in this regard from Lieutenant Colonel Parson and Lieutenant Colonel Mohatram who served in the same unit as Ayub Khan in Burma. The former in his presentation, ‘Battle of Kohima’, in 1984 categorically stated that, “Ayub Khan refused to command the regiment on the grounds that its men were no longer fit to carry on the battle and that he requested that he be sent back to India.” Lieutenant Colonel Parson’s revelations were published in the Daily Telegraph of Calcutta as well in Daily News of Karachi on April 28, 1984. From here the story gets really weird. Major General Joginder Singh, who was Ayub Khan’s battalion mate, asserts in his book Behind the Scenes (1993) that Ayub Khan was not considered fit to command his parent Punjab Regiment and was relegated to serving in Chamar Regiment, which was disbanded after the war ended. The point is that Ayub Khan did not serve in the prestigious Assam Regiment, which Gohar Ayub claims he did! For more on this issue and on Quaid-e-Azam’s order to transfer and freeze Ayub Khan’s career, I recommend the readers to read Major General Sher Ali’s The Story of Soldiering and Politics in India and Pakistan, Air Commodore Sajjad Haider’s Flight of the Falcon and Hasan Abbas’s Pakistan’s Drift into Extremism.

And then people argue on the misfortunes that befell Pakistan right after partition. It was as if the groggy muck at the bottom of the barrel was scraped up to be put on top. And it is this groggy muck that led us in our wars.. it is a miracle then that we survived through all of them.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Field Marshal General Muhammad Ayub Khan

This should help.. I am pasting excerpts only.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

Comment: Ayub Khan’s appointment

Mr Gohar Ayub admits that Ayub Khan was a colonel in 1947. He gives the example of General JN Chaudhuri who was also a colonel in 1947 and went on to become the Indian army chief. The fact is that General JN Chaudhri did become the Chief of Army Staff of the Indian Army, but on November 19, 1962, full 11 years and 11 months after Ayub Khan became Pakistan’s army chief! In his memoirs Glimpses into the Corridors of Power, Mr Gohar Ayub admits that his father was of the opinion that the rank of a full colonel was the most he could attain during British control.

The promotion from colonel to general in less than four years for Ayub Khan had strategic consequences for Pakistan, as Ayub Khan had neither attained the experience or the gravitas needed to do justice to the office of the Commander-in-Chief of Pakistan Army. His shortcomings became apparent during the 1965 War into which he had led the country, thanks to the ill thought and badly executed ‘Operation Gibraltar’. Compare this to the Indian Army. Field Marshal Kodandera ‘Kipper’ Madappa Cariappa, who was its first native army chief, was the senior most Hindu officer serving in the British Indian Army on partition. He was the first Indian officer to be given command of a unit (by the British in 1942) in 200 years of the British Raj. For his military exploits against the Japanese as division commander of the 26th Division, Cariappa was given the Order of the British Empire (OBE). Ayub Khan had the honour of serving under him as a colonel in the Frontier Brigade Group in 1946.
.................................................

Mr Gohar Ayub denies that the British gave Ayub Khan a horrible Annual Confidential Report (ACR) for timidity and refusal to participate in combat in Burma in World War II. Furthermore, he states, “Ayub Khan commanded 1st Assam Regiment from January 4 to December 27, 1945 in the Burma Campaign during which the battalion participated in heavy fighting till the Japanese surrender in mid-1945.”

Both of the above claims made by him are false and untrue. Ayub Khan’s timidity and refusal to participate in combat in World War II is an established fact. AH Amin and Dr Ayesha Siddiqa Agha, who are the only defence analysts and military historians in Pakistan of international stature, testify to this. Reviewing Shuja Nawaz’s book on Pakistan Army, Crossed Swords, in Newsline magazine in August 2008, Dr Ayesha states, “In fact, he completely ignores the information that Ayub Khan had received a bad ACR from his bosses prior to the partition of India and had become a general through machination.” Furthermore, there are written testimonies in this regard from Lieutenant Colonel Parson and Lieutenant Colonel Mohatram who served in the same unit as Ayub Khan in Burma. The former in his presentation, ‘Battle of Kohima’, in 1984 categorically stated that, “Ayub Khan refused to command the regiment on the grounds that its men were no longer fit to carry on the battle and that he requested that he be sent back to India.” Lieutenant Colonel Parson’s revelations were published in the Daily Telegraph of Calcutta as well in Daily News of Karachi on April 28, 1984. From here the story gets really weird. Major General Joginder Singh, who was Ayub Khan’s battalion mate, asserts in his book Behind the Scenes (1993) that Ayub Khan was not considered fit to command his parent Punjab Regiment and was relegated to serving in Chamar Regiment, which was disbanded after the war ended. The point is that Ayub Khan did not serve in the prestigious Assam Regiment, which Gohar Ayub claims he did! For more on this issue and on Quaid-e-Azam’s order to transfer and freeze Ayub Khan’s career, I recommend the readers to read Major General Sher Ali’s The Story of Soldiering and Politics in India and Pakistan, Air Commodore Sajjad Haider’s Flight of the Falcon and Hasan Abbas’s Pakistan’s Drift into Extremism.

Also:

Chamar Regiment

@third eye; wht you have dredged out is actually a matter of fact. Maj.(r) Agha Humayun Amin is another Military Author who has ponted out Ayub Khan's 'less than edifying' Military Record in rather acerbic terms--to the extent of calling him 'timid', which as depicted in the Chamar Regt. episode could even be considered to be some kind of euphemism for LMF.

There is another account by another PA veteran who had served as ADC to Gen.Gracey who happened to be in Britain for a course when Gen.Gracey had superannuated and Ayub was COAS when this (then serving) PA officer called on his erstwhile Boss; Gen.Gracey asked him "when is Ayub taking over" or words to that effect. His astounded guest said that Iskandar Mirza was very much President while his protege Ayub was in the COAS's chair. Gracey smiled sardonically and said that all that Ayub could think of was to get into the chair himself ! Ayub's fortuitous appointment as COAS by a benefactor President/PM and then his later treasonous turning on his benefactor was replicated by other COAS in Pakistan's chequered history!! Zia and Musharraff are some other such "worthies"/ vardies! who instantly spring to mind; they had a hallowed tradition to uphold after all!

Incidentally; Gen.Gracey had not recommended any upward trajectory for Ayub Khan for the reasons that you have enumerated. The Officers senior to Ayub were Maj.Generals Iftikhar Khan, Akbar Khan, Raza and Majid. Iftikhar Khan was by far the most suitable choice for elevation to COAS to replace Gracey. But he had an untimely death in an air-crash. Of the rest, Majid was a Bengali which obviously ruled him out. Thus started the hoary tradition of COAS of the PA being chosen less for any professional qualities and more for the qualities of "good courtiership".
Of course that in turn gave such Officers to display greater "politicking skills" than "military skills".

Somebody here has mentioned Ayub Khan with the full panoply of Field Marshal General Ayub Khan ; which is amusing to start with because a Field Marshal cannot be a General at the same time!
Then is the other interesting fact: Ayub Khan appointed himself a Field Marshal ! So far the only one in PA's history! Incidentally; this was suggested and urged upon him by his (then) acolyte Zulfiqar Bhutto. It is another matter that Bhutto later turned upon him too.............Ah, the ides of March; where art thou oh Brutus?

BTW, a concluding note: another self appointed Field Marshal in (fairly) recent history was:
Field Marshal Alhaji Dr. Idi Amin Dada, VC, DSO, MC, CBE ; AKA the Butcher of Uganda.
Except for the title of "Alhaji"; all the rest of the letters of alphabet appearing before and and after his name were 'self-assumed'.

 

[livingdead]

^^^ CBE stands for Conqueror of british empire... (from wiki) ... lolz

 

[he-man]

How exactly does this Untouchability thing work again ? How does one differentiate an Untouchable from (say !) a Brahmin if both were to walk side by side ?

In Singapore I couldn't really tell the castes of any of the Indian Origin People there - Most of them were vegetarians, a little brownish-to-dark in complexions, the women usually had a red or orange dot on their foreheads as did the men sometimes & most of the Aunties were wearing sarees two sizes two small with flabs of fat coming out of everywhere whilst most of the Uncles were wearing neat & freshly pressed Safaris & some with a Dhoti type thing for the lower dress - They all looked the same to me !

pls don't fall into the caste propaganda again

in india from indipendence onwards there is reservations for the weaker sections in govt jobs and colleges,universities etc

sc/st(dalits)-----22.5%
obc(other backward castes)-------27%

higher castes-----------------rest 50%

so there is actual advantage in being a low caste in india nowadays,,,lol