T-129 Atak & Turkish Attack Helicopter Programs

[dBSPL]

Consequences of the US engine export barrier to T-129:

1. Turkey had to run an alternative domestic engine program and caused more resources to be transferred to aviation engine developments.
2. Caused Turkey to increase supply chain security with alternative manufacturers
3. It could not prevent Pakistan from acquiring new attack helicopters.
4. It has (probably) caused China to conclude a new arms sales deal and gain another partnership in Pakistani-Chinese military relations.

What I want to say briefly is that the mind that directs foreign policies in the USA is not a product of great intelligence as it is thought. On the contrary, it is narrow-minded and is in the whirlpool of populism enough to cut back on its possibilities and opportunities one by one. It's foolishness to see the world as if we're still living in the 1980s...

 

[hyperman]

Right so the SELLER has no obligations, all obligations are on the CUSTOMER. Seriously dude, stop talking nonsense. Turkey FAILED TO PROVIDE PRODUCT AS PER CONTRACT.

Turkey didn't expect the beef between the State Department and Pakistan.

At expense of Pakistan give up their sovereign right? Sorry no, Pakistan already sting badly once by allowing US drone strike on their land in past. At least the Chinese do not impose this kind of ridiculous right on others. Pakistan rather drop the helo than losing their own dignity and humiliation.

Pakistan already agreed to much of the deal.

US nearing a formal agreement to use Pakistan's airspace to carry out military operations in Afghanistan | CNN Politics

The Biden administration has told lawmakers that the US is nearing a formalized agreement with Pakistan for use of its airspace to conduct military and intelligence operations in Afghanistan, according to three sources familiar with the details of a classified briefing with members of Congress...

www.cnn.com

Report: U.S. nears formal agreement to use Pakistan's airspace

The Biden administration is currently facing the reality of carrying out counterterrorism operations against groups like ISIS-K in Afghanistan following the U.S. withdrawal.

www.politico.com

What I said is that if they were going to do this deal for use of airspace, they should have atleast asked for more things in the deal, like clearance for defense procurements. lol whats the point of allowing use of airspace when you don't even get defense export guarantees.

NOT NEEDED we already have other options...

Shah Mahmood Qureshi and Bajwa already agreed to the deal. They are already selling themselves, all i said is that they should have asked for more money. lol

Report: U.S. nears formal agreement to use Pakistan's airspace

The Biden administration is currently facing the reality of carrying out counterterrorism operations against groups like ISIS-K in Afghanistan following the U.S. withdrawal.

www.politico.com

US nearing a formal agreement to use Pakistan's airspace to carry out military operations in Afghanistan | CNN Politics

The Biden administration has told lawmakers that the US is nearing a formalized agreement with Pakistan for use of its airspace to conduct military and intelligence operations in Afghanistan, according to three sources familiar with the details of a classified briefing with members of Congress...

www.cnn.com

 

[Polestar 2]

Turkey didn't expect the beef between the State Department and Pakistan.


Pakistan already agreed to much of the deal.

US nearing a formal agreement to use Pakistan's airspace to carry out military operations in Afghanistan | CNN Politics

The Biden administration has told lawmakers that the US is nearing a formalized agreement with Pakistan for use of its airspace to conduct military and intelligence operations in Afghanistan, according to three sources familiar with the details of a classified briefing with members of Congress...

www.cnn.com

Report: U.S. nears formal agreement to use Pakistan's airspace

The Biden administration is currently facing the reality of carrying out counterterrorism operations against groups like ISIS-K in Afghanistan following the U.S. withdrawal.

www.politico.com

What I said is that if they were going to do this deal for use of airspace, they should have atleast asked for more things in the deal, like clearance for defense procurements. lol whats the point of allowing use of airspace when you don't even get defense export guarantees.


Shah Mahmood Qureshi and Bajwa already agreed to the deal. They are already selling themselves, all i said is that they should have asked for more money. lol

Report: U.S. nears formal agreement to use Pakistan's airspace

The Biden administration is currently facing the reality of carrying out counterterrorism operations against groups like ISIS-K in Afghanistan following the U.S. withdrawal.

www.politico.com

US nearing a formal agreement to use Pakistan's airspace to carry out military operations in Afghanistan | CNN Politics

The Biden administration has told lawmakers that the US is nearing a formalized agreement with Pakistan for use of its airspace to conduct military and intelligence operations in Afghanistan, according to three sources familiar with the details of a classified briefing with members of Congress...

www.cnn.com

I highly doubt that source.

 

[mjting01]

They must be radar warning receivers and jammers. Yes, there are probably minor modifications to the models that were delivered to different forces. After all, this helicopter is constantly evolving. So much so that there is no place to put additional equipment in the helicopter anymore.

For this reason, a new helicopter is planned with the military version of the TS-1400 engine and its domestic transmission. The T-629 is planned, which will be 1 tonne heavier than the T129. This helicopter will have a common infrastructure with the Gökbey civil helicopter.

If the T-629 can be produced quickly, it can be offered to Pakistan instead of the T129 Atak. However, first of all, Gökbey needs to enter mass production. The T-629, which will share the joint infrastructure with Gökbey after it enters mass production, is implemented very quickly.

Note: Except for the T-629 model, the 10-ton class T-929 model, which will fly with the Ukrainian engine, will also be produced. In fact, this helicopter can be produced even before the T-629.

Thanks. I hope that the front small sensors are just blocked off and not exactly NOT included.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Turkey didn't expect the beef between the State Department and Pakistan.


Pakistan already agreed to much of the deal.

US nearing a formal agreement to use Pakistan's airspace to carry out military operations in Afghanistan | CNN Politics

The Biden administration has told lawmakers that the US is nearing a formalized agreement with Pakistan for use of its airspace to conduct military and intelligence operations in Afghanistan, according to three sources familiar with the details of a classified briefing with members of Congress...

www.cnn.com

Report: U.S. nears formal agreement to use Pakistan's airspace

The Biden administration is currently facing the reality of carrying out counterterrorism operations against groups like ISIS-K in Afghanistan following the U.S. withdrawal.

www.politico.com

What I said is that if they were going to do this deal for use of airspace, they should have atleast asked for more things in the deal, like clearance for defense procurements. lol whats the point of allowing use of airspace when you don't even get defense export guarantees.


Shah Mahmood Qureshi and Bajwa already agreed to the deal. They are already selling themselves, all i said is that they should have asked for more money. lol

Report: U.S. nears formal agreement to use Pakistan's airspace

The Biden administration is currently facing the reality of carrying out counterterrorism operations against groups like ISIS-K in Afghanistan following the U.S. withdrawal.

www.politico.com

US nearing a formal agreement to use Pakistan's airspace to carry out military operations in Afghanistan | CNN Politics

The Biden administration has told lawmakers that the US is nearing a formalized agreement with Pakistan for use of its airspace to conduct military and intelligence operations in Afghanistan, according to three sources familiar with the details of a classified briefing with members of Congress...

www.cnn.com

Pak has got Afganistan as a barter. Not a bad deal...

As for the ban on defense stuffs for Pak, it's a bone, purchased by the Indian diaspora, thrown toward India...

 

[BaybarsHan]

 

[Oublious]

Unfortunately the project for Pakistan is canceled. And they are right, Americans didn't give the export licence. Insallah next project with the the T929 we will meet againg .

 

[Shotgunner51]

Turkey didn't expect the beef between the State Department and Pakistan.


Pakistan already agreed to much of the deal.

US nearing a formal agreement to use Pakistan's airspace to carry out military operations in Afghanistan | CNN Politics

The Biden administration has told lawmakers that the US is nearing a formalized agreement with Pakistan for use of its airspace to conduct military and intelligence operations in Afghanistan, according to three sources familiar with the details of a classified briefing with members of Congress...

www.cnn.com

Report: U.S. nears formal agreement to use Pakistan's airspace

The Biden administration is currently facing the reality of carrying out counterterrorism operations against groups like ISIS-K in Afghanistan following the U.S. withdrawal.

www.politico.com

What I said is that if they were going to do this deal for use of airspace, they should have atleast asked for more things in the deal, like clearance for defense procurements. lol whats the point of allowing use of airspace when you don't even get defense export guarantees.


Shah Mahmood Qureshi and Bajwa already agreed to the deal. They are already selling themselves, all i said is that they should have asked for more money. lol

Report: U.S. nears formal agreement to use Pakistan's airspace

The Biden administration is currently facing the reality of carrying out counterterrorism operations against groups like ISIS-K in Afghanistan following the U.S. withdrawal.

www.politico.com

US nearing a formal agreement to use Pakistan's airspace to carry out military operations in Afghanistan | CNN Politics

The Biden administration has told lawmakers that the US is nearing a formalized agreement with Pakistan for use of its airspace to conduct military and intelligence operations in Afghanistan, according to three sources familiar with the details of a classified briefing with members of Congress...

www.cnn.com

Yes, Pak-US is talking and cutting deals as we speak, that's key point! That's exactly why I said the Z-10ME story is pure hot air (perhaps from PA side as a pressure tactic on US) and AH-1Z may eventually get delivered. Let's not forget those AH-1Z are already made and sitting in Arizona, US also suffers loss if no new deal is made.

The situation also applies to T129, Pak can simply wait it out until either US folds or TAI is ready to deliver. US should know time is not on their side (Pak can use old AH-1 for the time being), cos when TAI is ready to fit a new engine either domestic or Ukrainian even Russian to T129, US will loose all bargaining chip, they should be smart enough to cut a deal with Pak-Turkey while they still can.

 

[aziqbal]

Unfortunately the project for Pakistan is canceled. And they are right, Americans didn't give the export licence. Insallah next project with the the T929 we will meet againg .


View attachment 806156

That is very unfortunate

but at least Turks were open and honest about the development timeline

maybe they can work on ATAK II which will be larger and more powerful than T129

 

[blain2]

Turkey didn't expect the beef between the State Department and Pakistan.


Pakistan already agreed to much of the deal.

Shah Mahmood Qureshi and Bajwa already agreed to the deal. They are already selling themselves, all i said is that they should have asked for more money. lol

Report: U.S. nears formal agreement to use Pakistan's airspace

The Biden administration is currently facing the reality of carrying out counterterrorism operations against groups like ISIS-K in Afghanistan following the U.S. withdrawal.

www.politico.com

US nearing a formal agreement to use Pakistan's airspace to carry out military operations in Afghanistan | CNN Politics

The Biden administration has told lawmakers that the US is nearing a formalized agreement with Pakistan for use of its airspace to conduct military and intelligence operations in Afghanistan, according to three sources familiar with the details of a classified briefing with members of Congress...

www.cnn.com

Respectfully, nothing of the sort has been agreed to. You are quoting sources from back in Oct of last year when some of these meetings were taking place after which no less than Imran Khan categorically stated to western news outlets that Pakistan will NOT offer its airspace for strikes against Afghanistan. Unless you know something more specific and concrete, the above is just one of many other speculations.

The US military leadership in their testimony to Congress (CENTCOM commander specifically) in late September had mentioned that they have no such arrangement yet for intelligence gathering with neighboring countries but they have "over the horizon" targeting options. As far as I am aware, there is no agreement in place with Pakistan on this.

 

[blain2]

This is a good thread to post this very apt article in the Express Tribune newspaper by Lt Gen Talat Masood. While not addressing this issue directly, he bemoans the lack of technical and engineering knowhow in the Muslim world. What is essential is for countries like Turkey and Pakistan to invest heavily in engine development (perhaps in concert with China and Russia) if they expect to have options without the sanctions trip-wires.

Chinese are certainly struggling with it and this is instructive that jet/turbine engines are one of the most difficult feat of engineering thus far. Yet, it has to be mastered if countries like Turkey and Pakistan expect to survive (and hopefully thrive if they are able to break the Western monopoly). I know this is an extremely difficult task but the more examples we see of this nature, the starker the need to meddle more in this space.

 

[TigerOfMysore]

Consequences of the US engine export barrier to T-129:

1. Turkey had to run an alternative domestic engine program and caused more resources to be transferred to aviation engine developments.
2. Caused Turkey to increase supply chain security with alternative manufacturers
3. It could not prevent Pakistan from acquiring new attack helicopters.
4. It has (probably) caused China to conclude a new arms sales deal and gain another partnership in Pakistani-Chinese military relations.

What I want to say briefly is that the mind that directs foreign policies in the USA is not a product of great intelligence as it is thought. On the contrary, it is narrow-minded and is in the whirlpool of populism enough to cut back on its possibilities and opportunities one by one. It's foolishness to see the world as if we're still living in the 1980s...

US decisions these days are run on the basis of hubris and an over inflated self belief. It will take time for the US to realize the world has changed. Till then it will keep making such decisions that in the long run hurt her own interests.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

This is a good thread to post this very apt article in the Express Tribune newspaper by Lt Gen Talat Masood. While not addressing this issue directly, he bemoans the lack of technical and engineering knowhow in the Muslim world. What is essential is for countries like Turkey and Pakistan to invest heavily in engine development (perhaps in concert with China and Russia) if they expect to have options without the sanctions trip-wires.

Chinese are certainly struggling with it and this is instructive that jet/turbine engines are one of the most difficult feat of engineering thus far. Yet, it has to be mastered if countries like Turkey and Pakistan expect to survive (and hopefully thrive if they are able to break the Western monopoly). I know this is an extremely difficult task but the more examples we see of this nature, the starker the need to meddle more in this space.

Turkey's top brains are working on turbo engines. Ukraine has turned out to be the only country to form JVs in Turkey for such engines. So far, such JVs are formed for turboprop, turbofan, and naval gas turbine engines..

 

[hyperman]

after which no less than Imran Khan categorically stated to western news outlets that Pakistan will NOT offer its airspace for strikes against Afghanistan.

source? All i saw was refusal for airbases inside pakistan(his little "Absolutely Not" moment with the HBO reporter), I haven't seen anything with regards to airspace.

This is a good thread to post this very apt article in the Express Tribune newspaper by Lt Gen Talat Masood. While not addressing this issue directly, he bemoans the lack of technical and engineering knowhow in the Muslim world.

Its hard to do this when there are no mechanisms between Muslim states to cooperate and codevelop(sharing development costs and technology) and buy from each other or share in growing pains for such a thing, you see states taking the easy route of depending on their benefactors to provide for them, the one who cannot be self reliant will always walk around with a leash that can be tugged by his master who feeds him.

jet/turbine engines

There is a 3rd element outside of the Western Bloc and the Russian/Chinese ecosystem from which these things can be acquired. Ukraine inherited much of the airspace industry of the older soviet union and is capable of manufacturing planes and engines that even large high GDP states like India cannot produce. The next closest element is from the emerging East Asian defense industries, perhaps engaging in codevelopment either with South Korea or Japan, who have industrial bases to develop such things.

 

[Shotgunner51]

Turkey and Pakistan

Fully agree, and that's why I think this story of cancelling T129 and moving on to Z-10ME is pure hot air, perhaps by Pak-Turkey as a pressure tactic on US. If US folds now, deal done, if they continue to play hard ball Pak-Turkey might as well focus on engine replacement, a domestic one that replace LHTEC T800 in the long run.

Of course it's not a simple task, LHTEC T800 takes resources from both US (Honeywell) well as UK (RR) to build, and it's only until recently China managed to produce WZ-9C/AES100 turboshaft but production rate is still limited. Turkey has already set sail with their engine program for ATAK-1/2, it is a fruitful strategic investment for Pakistan to join now, say forming a Pak-Turkey JV like the LHTEC which is a US-Britain JV, in fact China-Russia has also started a JV to build helo.