What's new

Su-35 versus Typhoon: Analysis from RUSI’s Justin Bronk

Vergennes

ELITE MEMBER
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Messages
8,576
Reaction score
61
Country
France
Location
France
su35-hd-wallpaper-bak8.jpg


Outside the Western world, Russia’s ultra-agile Su-35 is the most potent fighter in operational service. We asked Justin Bronk from the Royal United Services Institute (RUSI) think-tank his thoughts on the Su-35’s combat effectiveness against the Typhoon the backbone of NATO’s fighter force.

HK: What is the current status of the Russian Su-35 fleet?

JB: Russia has 48 Su-35S in service with another 48 scheduled for production. They appear to offer a greater average serviceability rate than previous iterations of the Su-27/30 family, as well as the MiG-29, mainly due to the success of the new Saturn 117S thrust vectoring engines which have so far avoided many of the reliability issues of previous models. However, as with many other aspects of the Russian military, the fact that the production and service numbers of the Su-35 are quite low and exist within a huge mix of various MiG-29 and Su-27/30 derivations which do not share many key components means that running costs are high and logistics remain complex. This drives down serviceability to significantly below US, British and French fighter fleets, except in the case of small forward deployments such as Syria where the entire logistics chain can be concentrated on keeping a small portion of the force at high readines

How does it compare to Typhoon in terms of the following:

Detection/conspicuity to hostile sensors

The Su-35 has a significantly greater Radar Cross Section (RCS) than Typhoon due to its large intakes without effective fan-blade shielding, vertical dual stabilizers and thrust vectoring jet nozzles, as well as the latter’s greater use of radar absorbent materials and signature management for canards. The Su-35’s larger size and the canted position of the engines and greater thrust required also contribute to a heat signature that is significantly greater than Typhoon’s.



In terms of radars, the Su-35S’s Irbis-E PESA radar provides extremely high power levels allowing target detection beyond 300km (although without weapons which can engage at this range), as well as claimed advances in detecting low-observable threats such as stealth fighters at significantly beyond visual range. However, the downside to this is that the Irbis-E has to operate at extremely high power levels to achieve this performance and so is easily detectable and track-able at ranges beyond those at which it can track. All radars except AESAs with very low probabilities of intercept such as the F-22’s APG-79 suffer from this paradox but it is worse for the Su-35 because of the latter’s very large RCS and IR signature which means it must rely on out-ranging its opponents at BVR rather than trying to sneak up on them whilst relying on passive tracking.

successful-storm-shadow-trials-1663.jpg


Typhoon’s CAPTOR-M is comparable with the Irbis-E in terms of long range tracking and detection in active scanning mode and may be inferior with regard to detecting low-observable threats, but Typhoon has a very significant advantage in terms of passive tracking through the DASS and the world-leading PIRATE IRST.

Performance (at various altitudes, speeds and in both WVR and BVR)

Both aircraft are capable of super-cruising although the Typhoon’s speed without afterburners at combat loading is significantly higher than the Su-35*. Top speeds at low and high altitudes are comparable, but again Typhoon has the slight edge. In terms of kinematic persistence, the Su-35 burns much more more fuel to sustain energy than Typhoon, but also carries twice as much fully loaded. In prolonged engagements, the Typhoon has better combat persistence during sustained afterburner-dependent manoeuvres and also retains energy better at during high-g turns. This would tend to put the Su-35 at an increasing energy disadvantage over time, even as its thrust-to-weight ratio improves towards parity with Typhoon as it burns off fuel.

During a BVR engagement at high altitudes, assuming both aircraft have detected each other, the Su-35 is likely to be at a significant energy disadvantage as Typhoon would be flying at its higher service ceiling at faster supercruise speeds.

WVR, however, the Su-35 is extremely dangerous due to its phenomenal supermanoeuvrability due to its thrust vectoring engines and huge lifting body. Both in the horizontal and vertical planes, Typhoon would likely be outmatched by the Su-35 WVR, unless a Typhoon pilot could find space to accelerate vertically to gain an energy advantage without being shot down in the process. In reality, of course, whilst in a WVR dogfight situation the Su-35 does have a kinematic advantage, both aircraft are equipped with helmet-mounted sights to cue off-boresight missile shots and carry extremely manoeuvrable IR missiles with excellent countermeasure resistance. Neither is likely to survive a WVR ‘merge’ against the other.

*HK: The Typhoon’s maximum quoted supercruise speed has varied. EADS test pilot Chris Worning put it at M1.15-M1.2, the RAF have stated M1.1 and Typhoon pilots have suggested 1.2-3 with four conformal AMRAAMS, twin tanks and twin ASRAAMs, and 1.5 clean. The Su-35’s supercruise is marginal, probably no higher than M1.1 – it is much draggier design than the Typhoon.

7_04_09_867.jpg


Maintenance/reliability/sortie rate

Su-35 is bigger, heavier and more mechanically temperamental than Typhoon. However, it does not have such a dependence on software and computers which can cause many issues of their own in the case of Typhoon. If deployed as part of a large unified fleet by a Western air force, Su-35 could probably approach Typhoon’s reliability rate and surpass it in terms of ease of maintenance. However, the fact that Su-35 exists within a patchily resourced Russian Air Force with a myriad of different fighter types means it comes substantially below Typhoon in terms of reliability.

Defensive aids/elcectronic warfare (EW) suite

Russian EW capabilities tend to be superb. However, their defensive aids suites often lag behind their Western competitors. In the case of Su-35 and Typhoon specifically, both have some of the best DAS and EW capabilities which their respective nations can mount in frontline jets, but the exact details are highly classified. It is probably fair to assume that Typhoon has the edge in terms of defensive aids and passive ELINT gathering, whilst Su-35 has the edge in offensive EW and jamming capabilities.

Man-machine interface/ ease of flying and fighting

This is an area where Russian jets have always struggled. Even with multifunction cockpit displays and digital flight instruments, the Su-35 lags behind Typhoon in terms of ease of flying and fighting with it as a weapons system.

Network connectivity

Lack of Russian Air Force standardisation means that Typhoon wins hands down with latest generation Link 16, MIDS and other connectivity advantages. However, Russian tactical doctrine may mean that this disadvantage is less of an issue for them than it would be for a Western Air Force.

Weapons

Su-35 benefits from superb Russian missile design expertise. The multiple seeker-head mix which Russian fighters would fire in missile salvos in combat with Western fighters makes defending against them a very complicated task. At long range, the Su-35 can fire a mix of semi-active radar homing, anti-radiation (home on jam) and IR homing missiles, whilst at short range the Adder series remains as deadly as ever. Typhoon has the excellent ASRAAM and IRIS-T short range IR missiles which can equal or surpass their Russian counterparts, but at long range the AMRAAM is showing its age and against Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM) jamming technology which the Su-35S employs, it’s Pk drops significantly to the point that multiple missiles would likely be required to kill each target.

Which set-ups would favour which aircraft?

High and fast in BVR combat and rules of engagement which allow long range missile shots would favour Typhoon, especially once Meteor is fully integrated next year. WVR combat, especially at lower altitudes and speeds favour the Su-35. During a sudden incident as part of, say Baltic Air Policing, where both aircraft would typically be at medium altitude and at close range during QRA intercepts, Su-35S would likely be a real handful for Typhoon.

Which aircraft, all things being equal, would have an advantage?

I would certainly still take a Typhoon going into a hypothetical ‘all things equal’ scenario, because of its superior kinematics at high altitudes and speeds which allow it to have control of an engagement except in specific scenarios.

What do you expect the future holds for the Su-35, in terms of upgrades and production figures?

I expect that following the second order of 48 being delivered to the Russian Air Force by 2020, further orders will come in in dribs and drabs whilst the PAK FA/T-50 continues to be refined. Upgrades here and there will no doubt be added but I don’t anticipate any fundamental improvements – the Su-35S really is the pinnacle of the Flanker line.

What should I have asked you about the Su-35?

Haha, is it good value for money? Not withstanding what I’ve said about the various ways in which top-of-the-line and extremely expensive Western fighters such as the F-22, Typhoon (and Rafale which we haven’t really touched on) have answers to the Su-35, for its price tag of around $65M very little comes close!

Justin Bronk is a Research Fellow at the Military Sciences at Royal United Services Institute.

Su-35 versus Typhoon: Analysis from RUSI’s Justin Bronk | Hush-Kit
-

@Taygibay @PARIKRAMA @Blue Marlin @mike2000 is back @Khafee @F-22Raptor @AMDR @waz @DavidSling @500 @Penguin @Levina @James Jaevid
 
Very balanced, accurate, and professional, in my opinion. Su-35 is a very good fighter, but like most Russian designs, choices were made to emphasise one or two strengths at the expense of other attributes.
I kinda agree. but let's compare the Su-35 to F-35 you could say the Su-35 is more balanced.

-bigger, means it can carry more fuel and weapons
-faster
-supermaneuverable
-huge radar
-state of the art ECM
-cheaper to buy

only thing the F-35 got on it's side is it's sensors and stealth


but as for the Typhoon it's good especially when it get's the new upgrades

if given the choice I would take the Su-35 over the Typhoon
 
Last edited:
Although i like SU 35 it looks sexy too but Typhoon is just pure beauty ^_^
 
...."balanced, accurate"... must be kidding... it would close to those definitions if at least some numbers, links provided.. otherwise.. just word, which as all of us knows, are 'cheap'...
 
All I see are uninformed generalizations.

The Typhoon has zero advantage when it comes to BVR capability using the radar. MS vs PESA. And two TWTs mean the Irbis-E can perform actual multitasking operations. The Typhoon won't see the Su-35 nor will the AMRAAM be effective against the Su-35. The Typhoon will have to resort to the IRST in order to do anything at BVR. Considering the Su-35 can 'barely' supercruise, it can still go supersonic at higher speeds with afterburners for longer periods than the Typhoon can at supercruise. Weirdly enough, the analyst fails to mention that the Typhoon's radar also emits very high power. So passive detection works both ways.

The service ceiling is affected by whether the pilot is wearing a spacesuit or not. And I doubt the Su-35 has the same ceiling as a Su-30 in a purely performance PoV. It has 4 tons extra thrust and 2 tons extra fuel over the MKI, plus a lot of aerodynamic improvements, including the removal of that massive airbrake in the spine.

I laughed when I read the Su-35 doesn't have a good man-machine interface. The aircraft can actually RTB in case the pilot is incapacitated. It also has some very rudimentary AI which they are testing on the Su-35 before introduction into the PAK FA.

Otoh, the Su-35 is definitely less stealthy and has some other problems that plague all Flankers, like maintenance. You stick an AESA and Meteor on the Typhoon, then the Su-35 is in real trouble.
 
This is one sided analyst still being analysis of a specialist. I would like to hear what Russians and Su35 operators have to say. good one sided analysis overall.

He did not mention thought that su35 is different from other flankers due to its anti rcs quotings to reduce rcs to light fighter rcs. Which makes it less detectable than many 4th generation fighters. furthermore if size of su35 is big than one must realize that ef2000 is also using canards which even after remotely 3d controlled whatsoever that is reduces rcs by margin.

This mature modern warfare has already realised the importance of RCS i dont believe but at all that rcs of su35 series is still as older flankers.
 
I kinda agree. but let's compare the Su-35 to F-35 you could say the Su-35 is more balanced.

-bigger, means it can carry more fuel and weapons
-faster
-supermaneuverable
-huge radar
-state of the art ECM
-cheaper to buy

only thing the F-35 got on it's side is it's sensors and stealth


but as for the Typhoon it's good especially when it get's the new upgrades

if given the choice I would take the Su-35 over the Typhoon
:o::o::o: :crazy:
really!!

bigger means it can carry more fuel, yes thats true, but its big because the engines are not effecient,
faster, yeah sure it is but thats when its got the reheat on and that reduces the range, whilst we can supercruise with a good combat config whilst the su-35 cannot.
huge radar, its a pesa radar whilst is has the advantage of being easy to maintain it's not as good as the captor-e aesa
the ecm's, really, russain kit is better than western kit, just a few days ago the pakistani's said russain kit is not as good as western kit.

cheaper, ok you can have that,

This is one sided analyst still being analysis of a specialist. I would like to hear what Russians and Su35 operators have to say. good one sided analysis overall.

He did not mention thought that su35 is different from other flankers due to its anti rcs quotings to reduce rcs to light fighter rcs. Which makes it less detectable than many 4th generation fighters. furthermore if size of su35 is big than one must realize that ef2000 is also using canards which even after remotely 3d controlled whatsoever that is reduces rcs by margin.

This mature modern warfare has already realised the importance of RCS i dont believe but at all that rcs of su35 series is still as older flankers.
thats a good idea, but in the guys defence, what does he have to work with? we a russain expert to give their vire of the su-35. @vostok
 
su35-hd-wallpaper-bak8.jpg


Outside the Western world, Russia’s ultra-agile Su-35 is the most potent fighter in operational service. We asked Justin Bronk from the Royal United Services Institute (RUSI) think-tank his thoughts on the Su-35’s combat effectiveness against the Typhoon the backbone of NATO’s fighter force.

HK: What is the current status of the Russian Su-35 fleet?

JB: Russia has 48 Su-35S in service with another 48 scheduled for production. They appear to offer a greater average serviceability rate than previous iterations of the Su-27/30 family, as well as the MiG-29, mainly due to the success of the new Saturn 117S thrust vectoring engines which have so far avoided many of the reliability issues of previous models. However, as with many other aspects of the Russian military, the fact that the production and service numbers of the Su-35 are quite low and exist within a huge mix of various MiG-29 and Su-27/30 derivations which do not share many key components means that running costs are high and logistics remain complex. This drives down serviceability to significantly below US, British and French fighter fleets, except in the case of small forward deployments such as Syria where the entire logistics chain can be concentrated on keeping a small portion of the force at high readines

How does it compare to Typhoon in terms of the following:

Detection/conspicuity to hostile sensors

The Su-35 has a significantly greater Radar Cross Section (RCS) than Typhoon due to its large intakes without effective fan-blade shielding, vertical dual stabilizers and thrust vectoring jet nozzles, as well as the latter’s greater use of radar absorbent materials and signature management for canards. The Su-35’s larger size and the canted position of the engines and greater thrust required also contribute to a heat signature that is significantly greater than Typhoon’s.



In terms of radars, the Su-35S’s Irbis-E PESA radar provides extremely high power levels allowing target detection beyond 300km (although without weapons which can engage at this range), as well as claimed advances in detecting low-observable threats such as stealth fighters at significantly beyond visual range. However, the downside to this is that the Irbis-E has to operate at extremely high power levels to achieve this performance and so is easily detectable and track-able at ranges beyond those at which it can track. All radars except AESAs with very low probabilities of intercept such as the F-22’s APG-79 suffer from this paradox but it is worse for the Su-35 because of the latter’s very large RCS and IR signature which means it must rely on out-ranging its opponents at BVR rather than trying to sneak up on them whilst relying on passive tracking.

successful-storm-shadow-trials-1663.jpg


Typhoon’s CAPTOR-M is comparable with the Irbis-E in terms of long range tracking and detection in active scanning mode and may be inferior with regard to detecting low-observable threats, but Typhoon has a very significant advantage in terms of passive tracking through the DASS and the world-leading PIRATE IRST.

Performance (at various altitudes, speeds and in both WVR and BVR)

Both aircraft are capable of super-cruising although the Typhoon’s speed without afterburners at combat loading is significantly higher than the Su-35*. Top speeds at low and high altitudes are comparable, but again Typhoon has the slight edge. In terms of kinematic persistence, the Su-35 burns much more more fuel to sustain energy than Typhoon, but also carries twice as much fully loaded. In prolonged engagements, the Typhoon has better combat persistence during sustained afterburner-dependent manoeuvres and also retains energy better at during high-g turns. This would tend to put the Su-35 at an increasing energy disadvantage over time, even as its thrust-to-weight ratio improves towards parity with Typhoon as it burns off fuel.

During a BVR engagement at high altitudes, assuming both aircraft have detected each other, the Su-35 is likely to be at a significant energy disadvantage as Typhoon would be flying at its higher service ceiling at faster supercruise speeds.

WVR, however, the Su-35 is extremely dangerous due to its phenomenal supermanoeuvrability due to its thrust vectoring engines and huge lifting body. Both in the horizontal and vertical planes, Typhoon would likely be outmatched by the Su-35 WVR, unless a Typhoon pilot could find space to accelerate vertically to gain an energy advantage without being shot down in the process. In reality, of course, whilst in a WVR dogfight situation the Su-35 does have a kinematic advantage, both aircraft are equipped with helmet-mounted sights to cue off-boresight missile shots and carry extremely manoeuvrable IR missiles with excellent countermeasure resistance. Neither is likely to survive a WVR ‘merge’ against the other.

*HK: The Typhoon’s maximum quoted supercruise speed has varied. EADS test pilot Chris Worning put it at M1.15-M1.2, the RAF have stated M1.1 and Typhoon pilots have suggested 1.2-3 with four conformal AMRAAMS, twin tanks and twin ASRAAMs, and 1.5 clean. The Su-35’s supercruise is marginal, probably no higher than M1.1 – it is much draggier design than the Typhoon.

7_04_09_867.jpg


Maintenance/reliability/sortie rate

Su-35 is bigger, heavier and more mechanically temperamental than Typhoon. However, it does not have such a dependence on software and computers which can cause many issues of their own in the case of Typhoon. If deployed as part of a large unified fleet by a Western air force, Su-35 could probably approach Typhoon’s reliability rate and surpass it in terms of ease of maintenance. However, the fact that Su-35 exists within a patchily resourced Russian Air Force with a myriad of different fighter types means it comes substantially below Typhoon in terms of reliability.

Defensive aids/elcectronic warfare (EW) suite

Russian EW capabilities tend to be superb. However, their defensive aids suites often lag behind their Western competitors. In the case of Su-35 and Typhoon specifically, both have some of the best DAS and EW capabilities which their respective nations can mount in frontline jets, but the exact details are highly classified. It is probably fair to assume that Typhoon has the edge in terms of defensive aids and passive ELINT gathering, whilst Su-35 has the edge in offensive EW and jamming capabilities.

Man-machine interface/ ease of flying and fighting

This is an area where Russian jets have always struggled. Even with multifunction cockpit displays and digital flight instruments, the Su-35 lags behind Typhoon in terms of ease of flying and fighting with it as a weapons system.

Network connectivity

Lack of Russian Air Force standardisation means that Typhoon wins hands down with latest generation Link 16, MIDS and other connectivity advantages. However, Russian tactical doctrine may mean that this disadvantage is less of an issue for them than it would be for a Western Air Force.

Weapons

Su-35 benefits from superb Russian missile design expertise. The multiple seeker-head mix which Russian fighters would fire in missile salvos in combat with Western fighters makes defending against them a very complicated task. At long range, the Su-35 can fire a mix of semi-active radar homing, anti-radiation (home on jam) and IR homing missiles, whilst at short range the Adder series remains as deadly as ever. Typhoon has the excellent ASRAAM and IRIS-T short range IR missiles which can equal or surpass their Russian counterparts, but at long range the AMRAAM is showing its age and against Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM) jamming technology which the Su-35S employs, it’s Pk drops significantly to the point that multiple missiles would likely be required to kill each target.

Which set-ups would favour which aircraft?

High and fast in BVR combat and rules of engagement which allow long range missile shots would favour Typhoon, especially once Meteor is fully integrated next year. WVR combat, especially at lower altitudes and speeds favour the Su-35. During a sudden incident as part of, say Baltic Air Policing, where both aircraft would typically be at medium altitude and at close range during QRA intercepts, Su-35S would likely be a real handful for Typhoon.

Which aircraft, all things being equal, would have an advantage?

I would certainly still take a Typhoon going into a hypothetical ‘all things equal’ scenario, because of its superior kinematics at high altitudes and speeds which allow it to have control of an engagement except in specific scenarios.

What do you expect the future holds for the Su-35, in terms of upgrades and production figures?

I expect that following the second order of 48 being delivered to the Russian Air Force by 2020, further orders will come in in dribs and drabs whilst the PAK FA/T-50 continues to be refined. Upgrades here and there will no doubt be added but I don’t anticipate any fundamental improvements – the Su-35S really is the pinnacle of the Flanker line.

What should I have asked you about the Su-35?

Haha, is it good value for money? Not withstanding what I’ve said about the various ways in which top-of-the-line and extremely expensive Western fighters such as the F-22, Typhoon (and Rafale which we haven’t really touched on) have answers to the Su-35, for its price tag of around $65M very little comes close!

Justin Bronk is a Research Fellow at the Military Sciences at Royal United Services Institute.

Su-35 versus Typhoon: Analysis from RUSI’s Justin Bronk | Hush-Kit
-

@Taygibay @PARIKRAMA @Blue Marlin @mike2000 is back @Khafee @F-22Raptor @AMDR @waz @DavidSling @500 @Penguin @Levina @James Jaevid


Interesting that part of the article was cut out!

And against the Saab Gripen and Dassault Rafale?

Gripen is a bit of an unknown quantity against modern air superiority machines because it takes a fundamentally different approach to survivability. Whilst in traditional DACT exercises, Typhoon pilots have often referred to the Gripen as ‘cannon-fodder’ due to its inferior thrust-to-weight ratio, speed, agility and armament, in the few cases where the Gripen has ‘come to play’ with its full electronic warfare capabilities, it has given Typhoons very nasty shocks. Against the Su-35S, Gripen would rely on the cutting edge EW capabilities which Saab builds the Gripen (especially the new E/F) around to hide the aircraft from the sensors of the Russian jets in much the same way as the Raptor relies on x-band stealth. These EW capabilities are so highly classified that there is simply no way to assess their effectiveness in the public domain. Having said that, RAF pilots who I have talked to with experience of the Saab fighter’s EW teeth first hand say that the ability of the aircraft to get alarmingly close without detection thanks entirely to EW is very impressive.

https://hushkit.net/2016/03/17/su-35-versus-typhoon-analysis-from-rusis-justin-bronk/
 
Justin Bronk is a Research Fellow at the Military Sciences at Royal United Services Institute.
says it all.

Can we have someone interview any Russian aviator or research analyst from Russia for SU35 Vs EFT comparison to get both sides of the story.
 

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom