What's new

Study: Germans see Islam as a threat

Please don't embarrass yourself, and your side, with such vacuous arguments.

The fundamental principle of law is very clear: we hold people accountable for their actions, not thoughts or ethnicity or religion.

People on your side who fail to understand such basic concepts are out of touch with egalitarian, democratic values. The irony of such people lecturing others on "values" is a source of constant amusement.
That is the law. But the conflict between civilizations involves more than just the local law but also thoughts, ethnicity and religions.

I said it before, and I will continue to say it: That we do not live in an intellectual and moral vacuum, that EVERYTHING we do (actions) needs justifications, and that those justifications comes from our thoughts, where we came from (ethnicity), and whether we believes what we do are motivated by the fear of being held accountable by a supernatural power (religion), just as our actions are motivated by the fear of being held accountable by local laws.
 
.
When Muslims finally learn to keep to themselves maybe only then will they be welcomed by the rest of the world society.
 
. . . .
Btw, 19% of Germans said they see Judaism as a threat. In my opinion that's a relatively high number if you compare it to the small number of Jews in Germany and in relation to the number of Muslims.
 
. .
That is the law. But the conflict between civilizations involves more than just the local law but also thoughts, ethnicity and religions.

I said it before, and I will continue to say it: That we do not live in an intellectual and moral vacuum, that EVERYTHING we do (actions) needs justifications, and that those justifications comes from our thoughts, where we came from (ethnicity), and whether we believes what we do are motivated by the fear of being held accountable by a supernatural power (religion), just as our actions are motivated by the fear of being held accountable by local laws.

Without conceding the oft-repeated nebulous claim that "most Muslims" in the West reject Western values, let's examine your premise.

You are right that thoughts influence actions, but the whole basis of freedom of thought and speech -- most notably implemented in the US -- is that ideas win by their own merit and don't need official protections of thought control. All ideas and principles can be challenged in a lawful manner and debated on merit. If there is a clash of ideas, or civilizations, then liberal democratic principles are strong enough to survive any challenge by competing ideas.
 
.
@Mosamania Sir, you have got an interesting avatar for a Muslim!

And gambit is completely right about this. Just take a look at the Boston bombers case and you'll know he's right! And that is not even an isolated case!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
.
Without conceding the oft-repeated nebulous claim that "most Muslims" in the West reject Western values, let's examine your premise.

You are right that thoughts influence actions, but the whole basis of freedom of thought and speech -- most notably implemented in the US -- is that ideas win by their own merit and don't need official protections of thought control. All ideas and principles can be challenged in a lawful manner and debated on merit. If there is a clash of ideas, or civilizations, then liberal democratic principles are strong enough to survive any challenge by competing ideas.
Who said anything about 'thought control'? Unless you are saying, despite your claim to believe in the liberal democratic principles, that to challenge the Muslims regarding the motivations for their actions qualify as 'thought control'.

The fundamental principle of law is very clear: we hold people accountable for their actions, not thoughts or ethnicity or religion.
The law hold people accountable for their actions, but we have the right to hold each other MORALLY accountable for their thoughts, spoken or unspoken, and even actionable when necessary, as in the case of libel.

If I am of a religion that says my wife must walk 3 paces behind me, non-believers do have the right to question the morality of my religion. So even if there is no law that forbid the treatment of wives in the manner of A, B, or C, they are holding me accountable against their moralities while I treat my wife according to my religious beliefs. Like it or not, the human nature is that we first measure what we experience against what we know, then we seek understanding. But even if we understand, that does not mean we will accept what we see and experience to be on the same plane as our moralities dictate to us. In other words, we will grade all moralities and religions. That gradation is unacceptable to the Muslims. In order for one argument (idea) to 'win', its opposition must 'lose'. For a set of morality to take second place in a two man race, the believers of that set of morality will be seen as inferior, inapplicable and inappropriate to modernity. If that set of morality have a religious component, and moralities usually do, its god will also be seen as an inferior god, or worse, the moral opposite of the god that 'won' the debate.

So what we are seeing now is that the Muslims are seeking legal forbiddance of moral and intellectual challenges to Islam and consequently how Muslims act in the practice of their religion, as in 'thoughts influence actions', as you conceded. The Muslims in the countries where Islam is not the dominant religion are also carving out enclaves where they will enforce their interpretations of Islam, and often what are being enforced are contrary to the dominant moral and legal foundation allows and protects. Inside those enclaves, the Muslims are indeed rejecting Western values.

If ordinary Germans view Islam as a social threat, it is only a matter of time they will react to that threat outside of the intellectual arena. And that time is near.
 
.
well i am proud of what i am ""MUSLIM"" and other should be proud of what the belongs to. well Religion has nothing to do with extremism its all about the follower.. if a Ferrari has got an accident who will u blame ?? Ferrari or the driver?? its all about followers... the crusaders slaughtered thousands of muslims and jews!! yeah its reality that their was no media and news papers on that time but you can not deny history... so will you blame Christianity for that??? well in real Christianity has nothing to do with that. we must be a human being first then the follower of our religion, religion is for humans not for animals, be a HUMAN and yeah when they failed to crush ISLAM militarily so they started physiological campaign against ISLAM ... and the interesting part is, their own people are converting and accepting ISLAM... the fastest growing religion on earth
 
.
Who said anything about 'thought control'? Unless you are saying, despite your claim to believe in the liberal democratic principles, that to challenge the Muslims regarding the motivations for their actions qualify as 'thought control'.

The bit about thought control was in reference to people claiming that Muslims who allegedly are not in sync with Western values should be deported. There was a recent study which showed surprisingly large numbers of people in some Western countries who are disaffected with democracy and who are not convinced it is the best method of governance. Should we deport them too? Where to? What about conservatives, of all stripes, who are not 'in sync with' liberal principles?

Bottom line, it is (unlawful) actions that matter, not beliefs.

The law hold people accountable for their actions, but we have the right to hold each other MORALLY accountable for their thoughts, spoken or unspoken, and even actionable when necessary, as in the case of libel.

Libel is an action. If someone thinks that Obama steals money, he can think it all he wants. But if he makes a public statement to that effect, then it becomes libel and only then can that person be prosecuted.

If I am of a religion that says my wife must walk 3 paces behind me, non-believers do have the right to question the morality of my religion.

Of course they can, and no one here has denied that there are extremist elements in, and interpretations of, Islam -- like any other religion. We even concede that much of the problems keeping Muslims backward are due to such elements.

What we are saying is that such criticism should be measured and in context. When a Muslim asks for sharia law, it becomes front page news. When a Jewish or Christian person does similar, it does not. If you look at the history of political activism challenging the 'mainstream' culture, the Muslim plaintiffs are negligible compared to others. So this hyped up fear that Islam, and Muslim immigration, poses a threat to the local culture is overblown due to selective media focus.

As for 'no go' areas, I already explained that such areas exist for many other economically disadvantaged minorities -- non Muslim, Christian minorities -- and have done so throughout the history of migrant groups. To suggest that this recent Muslim phenomenon is somehow unique, or that it reflects on mainstream Muslims, is disingenuous.
 
.
If it is only media focus..then why are only people of one religious group blowing civilians up in god's name?Why aren't christians,hindus,buddhists,jews,sikhs,zoroastrians doing the same?Its not all media conspiracy...no matter how much u try to enforce denial.Another thing is there is no seperate jewish law or christian law that is being asked for btw as u claim,only sharia....and in many cases over people u don't beleive in the faith.
 
.
Screw all that noise, Europeans will be Europeans. They've overlooked Greece's inner politics because they intentionally wanted for them to create a buffer between us and them. They knew that Greece was spending EU funds on military equipment all along. The fact is that they used Greece and when they're done they threw them under the bus

When Muslims finally learn to keep to themselves maybe only then will they be welcomed by the rest of the world society.
2.5 million Turks in Germany, no way they can "keep to themselves"

It's NOT our fault, it's just their natural crusader mentality. You'd think that after renaissance and reform they would've changed but they are sub-consciously following the same path, same ideology.

. We've protected Europe's flank during the cold war, we've done our part. We have a strong, stable economy, a young, hardworking population. They still won't accept us to EU

Europe should get over their 1400s' retarded catholic mentality and move on. The world has changed
 
.
It's NOT our fault, it's just their natural crusader mentality. You'd think that after renaissance and reform they would've changed but they are sub-consciously following the same path, same ideology.

Europe should get over their 1400s' retarded catholic mentality and move on. The world has changed

Luckily for us the muslims have reformed by leaps and bounds while the barbarian europeans still live trapped in a medieval mentality :cheers:
 
.
Back
Top Bottom