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Stealth-Killer: How Russia or China Could Crush America’s F-35 or F-22 Raptor

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Stealth-Killer: How Russia or China Could Crush America’s F-35 or F-22 Raptor
lockheed_martin_f-22_raptor_09-191_-_ff_27585274634_0.jpg

Dave Majumdar
February 20, 2017

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With a missile warhead large enough, the range resolution does not have to be precise. For example, the now antiquated S-75 Dvina—known in NATO parlance as the SA-2 Guideline—has a 440-pound warhead with a lethal radius of more than 100 feet. Thus, a notional twenty-microsecond compressed pulse with a range resolution of 150 feet should have the range resolution to get the warhead close enough—according to Pietrucha’s theory. The directional and elevation resolution would have to be similar with an angular resolution of roughly 0.3 degrees for a target at thirty nautical miles because the launching radar is the only system guiding the SA-2. For example, a missile equipped with its own sensor—perhaps an infrared sensor with a scan volume of a cubic kilometer—would be an even more dangerous foe against an F-22 or F-35.

The United States has poured ten of billions of dollars into developing fifth-generation stealth fighters such as the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. However, relatively simple signal processing enhancements, combined with a missile with a large warhead and its own terminal guidance system, could potentially allow low-frequency radars and such weapons systems to target and fire on the latest generation U.S. aircraft.

It is a well-known fact within Pentagon and industry circles that low-frequency radars operating in the VHF and UHF bands can detect and track low-observable aircraft. It has generally been held that such radars can’t guide a missile onto a target—i.e. generate a “weapons quality” track. But that is not exactly correct—there are ways to get around the problem according to some experts.


Traditionally, guiding weapons with low frequency radars has been limited by two factors. One factor is the width of the radar beam, while the second is the width of the radar pulse—but both limitations can be overcome with signal processing.

The width of the beam is directly related to the design of the antenna—which is necessarily large because of the low frequencies involved. Early low-frequency radars like the Soviet-built P-14 Tall King VHF-band radars was enormous in size and used a semi-parabolic shape to limit the width of the beam. Later radars like the P-18 Spoon Rest used a Yagi-Uda array—which were lighter and somewhat smaller. But these early low frequency radars had some serious limitations in determining the range and the precise direction of a contact. Furthermore, they could not determine altitude because the radar beams produced by these systems are several degrees wide in azimuth and tens of degrees wide in elevation.

Another traditional limitation of VHF and UHF-band radars is that their pulse width is long and they have a low pulse repetition frequency [PRF]—which means such systems are poor at accurately determining range. As Mike Pietrucha, a former Air Force an electronic warfare officer who flew on the McDonnell Douglas F-4G Wild Weasel and Boeing F-15E Strike Eagle once described to me, a pulse width of twenty microseconds yields a pulse that is roughly 19,600 ft long—range resolution is half the length of that pulse. That means that range can’t be determined accurately within 10,000 feet. Furthermore, two targets near one another can’t be distinguished as separate contacts.

Signal processing partially solved the range resolution problem as early as in the 1970s. The key is a process called frequency modulation on pulse, which is used to compress a radar pulse. The advantage of using pulse compression is that with a twenty-microsecond pulse, the range resolution is reduced to about 180 feet or so. There are also several other techniques that can be used to compress a radar pulse such as phase shift keying. Indeed, according to Pietrucha, the technology for pulse compression is decades old and was taught to Air Force electronic warfare officers during the 1980s. The computer processing power required for this is negligible by current standards, Pietrucha said.

Engineers solved the problem of directional or azimuth resolution by using phased array radar designs, which dispensed with the need for a parabolic array. Unlike older mechanically scanned arrays, phased array radars steer their radar beams electronically. Such radars can generate multiple beams and can shape those beams for width, sweep rate and other characteristics. The necessary computing power to accomplish that task was available in the late 1970s for what eventually became the Navy’s Aegis combat system found on the Ticonderoga-class cruisers and Arleigh Burke-class destroyers. An active electronically scanned array is better still, being even more precise.

With a missile warhead large enough, the range resolution does not have to be precise. For example, the now antiquated S-75 Dvina—known in NATO parlance as the SA-2 Guideline—has a 440-pound warhead with a lethal radius of more than 100 feet. Thus, a notional twenty-microsecond compressed pulse with a range resolution of 150 feet should have the range resolution to get the warhead close enough—according to Pietrucha’s theory.

The directional and elevation resolution would have to be similar with an angular resolution of roughly 0.3 degrees for a target at thirty nautical miles because the launching radar is the only system guiding the SA-2. For example, a missile equipped with its own sensor—perhaps an infrared sensor with a scan volume of a cubic kilometer—would be an even more dangerous foe against an F-22 or F-35


Source :

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...ssia-or-china-could-crush-americas-f-35-19511
 
Thing is you first need to know the Aircraft first before countering it , or any technology .. For raptor the world does not even know much about it there are things which only US knows about Raptor .. Raptor is and will be dominating the world skies for at least 2 decades ..
 
Thing is you first need to know the Aircraft first before countering it , or any technology .. For raptor the world does not even know much about it there are things which only US knows about Raptor .. Raptor is and will be dominating the world skies for at least 2 decades ..

To me it sounds like, you are telling a bats man playing cricket, that unless you know , what the ball is made of and what it has inside of it, you wont really be able to hit the ball,

In such a case china or Russia just needs to touch 1 ball with a bat, while they have like 10 bats to hit it. No matter even if the ball is made up of iron or rubber, once it touches the bat, poof!
 
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Ah, the legend of the stealth will continue to be frank. The logic is pretty sraight and simple. The idea was created, advocated, promoted by US so any others counter measures are nothing for it all depends the willingness of Americans -- 1.Deployed F22 like planes to the regions. 2.invade both countries. With these so that it can provide evidences to show what capabilities both countries have just like F117 in Yugoslavia. I don't think US will or dare to provide this opportunities.

Theories on paper or equipments at home just can't stop the legend.

DF21D and DF26 are other examples. So just take it easy and let's just have theoretic talking. US won't give you any proofs for now.
 
Stealth-Killer: How Russia or China Could Crush America’s F-35 or F-22 Raptor
lockheed_martin_f-22_raptor_09-191_-_ff_27585274634_0.jpg

Dave Majumdar
February 20, 2017

TweetShareShare

With a missile warhead large enough, the range resolution does not have to be precise. For example, the now antiquated S-75 Dvina—known in NATO parlance as the SA-2 Guideline—has a 440-pound warhead with a lethal radius of more than 100 feet. Thus, a notional twenty-microsecond compressed pulse with a range resolution of 150 feet should have the range resolution to get the warhead close enough—according to Pietrucha’s theory. The directional and elevation resolution would have to be similar with an angular resolution of roughly 0.3 degrees for a target at thirty nautical miles because the launching radar is the only system guiding the SA-2. For example, a missile equipped with its own sensor—perhaps an infrared sensor with a scan volume of a cubic kilometer—would be an even more dangerous foe against an F-22 or F-35.

The United States has poured ten of billions of dollars into developing fifth-generation stealth fighters such as the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. However, relatively simple signal processing enhancements, combined with a missile with a large warhead and its own terminal guidance system, could potentially allow low-frequency radars and such weapons systems to target and fire on the latest generation U.S. aircraft.

It is a well-known fact within Pentagon and industry circles that low-frequency radars operating in the VHF and UHF bands can detect and track low-observable aircraft. It has generally been held that such radars can’t guide a missile onto a target—i.e. generate a “weapons quality” track. But that is not exactly correct—there are ways to get around the problem according to some experts.


Traditionally, guiding weapons with low frequency radars has been limited by two factors. One factor is the width of the radar beam, while the second is the width of the radar pulse—but both limitations can be overcome with signal processing.

The width of the beam is directly related to the design of the antenna—which is necessarily large because of the low frequencies involved. Early low-frequency radars like the Soviet-built P-14 Tall King VHF-band radars was enormous in size and used a semi-parabolic shape to limit the width of the beam. Later radars like the P-18 Spoon Rest used a Yagi-Uda array—which were lighter and somewhat smaller. But these early low frequency radars had some serious limitations in determining the range and the precise direction of a contact. Furthermore, they could not determine altitude because the radar beams produced by these systems are several degrees wide in azimuth and tens of degrees wide in elevation.

Another traditional limitation of VHF and UHF-band radars is that their pulse width is long and they have a low pulse repetition frequency [PRF]—which means such systems are poor at accurately determining range. As Mike Pietrucha, a former Air Force an electronic warfare officer who flew on the McDonnell Douglas F-4G Wild Weasel and Boeing F-15E Strike Eagle once described to me, a pulse width of twenty microseconds yields a pulse that is roughly 19,600 ft long—range resolution is half the length of that pulse. That means that range can’t be determined accurately within 10,000 feet. Furthermore, two targets near one another can’t be distinguished as separate contacts.

Signal processing partially solved the range resolution problem as early as in the 1970s. The key is a process called frequency modulation on pulse, which is used to compress a radar pulse. The advantage of using pulse compression is that with a twenty-microsecond pulse, the range resolution is reduced to about 180 feet or so. There are also several other techniques that can be used to compress a radar pulse such as phase shift keying. Indeed, according to Pietrucha, the technology for pulse compression is decades old and was taught to Air Force electronic warfare officers during the 1980s. The computer processing power required for this is negligible by current standards, Pietrucha said.

Engineers solved the problem of directional or azimuth resolution by using phased array radar designs, which dispensed with the need for a parabolic array. Unlike older mechanically scanned arrays, phased array radars steer their radar beams electronically. Such radars can generate multiple beams and can shape those beams for width, sweep rate and other characteristics. The necessary computing power to accomplish that task was available in the late 1970s for what eventually became the Navy’s Aegis combat system found on the Ticonderoga-class cruisers and Arleigh Burke-class destroyers. An active electronically scanned array is better still, being even more precise.

With a missile warhead large enough, the range resolution does not have to be precise. For example, the now antiquated S-75 Dvina—known in NATO parlance as the SA-2 Guideline—has a 440-pound warhead with a lethal radius of more than 100 feet. Thus, a notional twenty-microsecond compressed pulse with a range resolution of 150 feet should have the range resolution to get the warhead close enough—according to Pietrucha’s theory.

The directional and elevation resolution would have to be similar with an angular resolution of roughly 0.3 degrees for a target at thirty nautical miles because the launching radar is the only system guiding the SA-2. For example, a missile equipped with its own sensor—perhaps an infrared sensor with a scan volume of a cubic kilometer—would be an even more dangerous foe against an F-22 or F-35


Source :

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...ssia-or-china-could-crush-americas-f-35-19511

You have missed the point about F-22 or any sort of advance weapon, the point is never have to try and have a "Wonder Weapon" undefeatable, but rather how it will impact your own strategy and your enemy reaction.

As a weapon advocate myself, I believe there are no "Wonder Weapon" not to the Chinese DF-21 or anykind of missile tech, not to the American F-22 or F-35? Why? Try ask yourselves the following 2 questions.

1.) Can F-22 or Stealth be defeated? YES, OF COURSE.
2.) Does that mean F-22 is a useless weapon? NO.

F-22 or stealth is not a new concept, the moment it roll out the line by Lockheed Martin or Nortrop Grumman roll out F-117A, F-22 in the 1980s, the US Scientist have already been developing a way to defeat their own stealth. While I am not privvy to the detail, I am pretty sure the American had already have a pretty good way to defeat Staelth with at least 30 years research. They are just not telling anybody about it

No weapon platform are "undefeatable" weapon platform are born to tactical changes, and once the tactics changes, your weapon is then effectively defeated. It had happen all over history of warfare. You have your fist, then you have your swords or close quarter weapon, then you develope chain armour to defeat the sword, then you try to draw the enemy wide and single them out with bows and arrows. Then you started to arm with shield, next step is horse cavalry, and you learn how to deal with it in pike. Then war move on to projectile and rifled weapon, and you start to wear body armor. Then they have tank over the WW1 trenches, but someone defeat them with hedges or anti-tank missile, next come aircraft, and people start designing Surface to Air Missile. (SAM)

At any given point in the stage of history, Sword, Bows and Arrows, Horse Cavalry, Rifles and Guns, Tanks and Aircraft were labelled "Wonder Weapon" at some stage, but each are effectively defeat with either a change of tactics or inventing new weapon, or both. Nothing ever is undefeatable, it's unwise to think otherwise.

However, would that throught rendering F-22 or other sort of advance weapon useless? No, a weapon platfrom are always there to HELP YOU WIN A WAR, BUT NOT WINNING A WAR FOR YOU. Depending on how much effofc the rest of the world trying to overcome the disadvantages. If a particular weapon system would have give your enemy a scratch of their head and a run for their money, they would have to devote time, manpower, resource to try and defeat it. Which will give you time to invent new weapon. That would be the value of the advance weaponry.

Yes, shooting down a F-22 is not impossible, and nobody ever claim they are impossible to shoot down, however, what you need to do to shoot down a F-22? If it takes multiple resource to shoot it down than a normal platform, let's say it take 4 times as much effort to shoot down a F-22, then maybe over a F-15, that mean you do more with less, you take up more of your enemy resource to focus on you, instead of focusing on anywhere else in the battlefield, that is the core value of avdance weapon platform.

The question you should ask is, if American already have the solution to defeat Steakth, then wouldn't the Chinese or Russian effort to develope 5th gen aircraft is already in vein? Becuase the American have 30 odds year time to try defeat Stealth, then, the edge of stealth has alrady been lost. see, the value of weaponry is not try and not be defeated, but rather lead your enemy into it so you can come out ahead of your enemy.

It's naive to think you will have an undefeatable weapon, no weapon is undefeatable, that is always true, how much it works for you and how much works it demanded your enemy is the real value of every advance weapon platform. If your new weapon can be counter with minimal change to weapon and tactics, that mean your "wonder weapon" had failed. However, if we talk a lot about how to defeat a new weapon, wasn't we have already been beaten at this point?

Thing is you first need to know the Aircraft first before countering it , or any technology .. For raptor the world does not even know much about it there are things which only US knows about Raptor .. Raptor is and will be dominating the world skies for at least 2 decades ..

As I said before, no weapon are undefeatable, weapon platform in general is actually a tool, you don't win a war with solely your tool, you win a war with the help of your tool.

Weapon and Tactics goes hand in hand together, no weapon are undefeatable, no tactics are always winnign the war for you, but weapon, in general give you edge over your enemies. And that edge is not measured by would that weapon be able to defeated? But rather, how much resource, manpower, time you take to defeat them. Because the more you draw your enemy resource on your advance weapon, the less resource they would have to face the other things, that gives you an edge. And that goes the value of an advance platform.
 
As I said before, no weapon are undefeatable, weapon platform in general is actually a tool, you don't win a war with solely your tool, you win a war with the help of your tool.

Weapon and Tactics goes hand in hand together, no weapon are undefeatable, no tactics are always winnign the war for you, but weapon, in general give you edge over your enemies. And that edge is not measured by would that weapon be able to defeated? But rather, how much resource, manpower, time you take to defeat them. Because the more you draw your enemy resource on your advance weapon, the less resource they would have to face the other things, that gives you an edge. And that goes the value of an advance platform.

Of course i agree, but what my point is that any Airforce to counter Raptor they need to know it , up side down .. as far as i read here information regarding Raptor is very less or basic there is much about raptor that meets the eye.
but definitely to win a War even Air Warfare, we have to consider all aspects , That may include AWAC's , SAM , Net Centric Environment, ground support Radars etc ..
 
To me it sounds like, you are telling a bats man playing cricket, that unless you know , what the ball is made of and what it has inside of it, you wont really be able to hit the ball,

In such a case china or Russia just needs to touch 1 ball with a bat, while they have like 10 bats to hit it. No matter even if the ball is made up of iron or rubber, once it touches the bat, poof!
This ball is not passive. It has the ability to deliver stuff that goes 'poof'.
 
Of course i agree, but what my point is that any Airforce to counter Raptor they need to know it , up side down .. as far as i read here information regarding Raptor is very less or basic there is much about raptor that meets the eye.
but definitely to win a War even Air Warfare, we have to consider all aspects , That may include AWAC's , SAM , Net Centric Environment, ground support Radars etc ..

Yes, indeed, that's why the weapon system itself is not important, what the enemy need to do to work against it.

As you say, the only way to defeat stealth (a raptor in this case) you will need to get your hand on a raptor, or a similar aircraft, that is the main motivation why Russia and China dips their hand on Stealth. The problem is, for the American, Stealth is already an old technology, they have a raptor (actually Nighthawk to begin with) to play with stealth. Meaning, at this point, US have about 30 years to try and defeat stealth with an actual stealthy aircraft.

On the other hand, China and Russia have yet to produce a production level Stealth Fighter, that means even if theey have suddenly finalized a stealth design, they will have to have to catch up with 30 years of USAF research. By the time they get there, the US would have already moved onto sixth gen aircraft.

THe reason new weapon exist so you will have your enemy scratch their heads and try to build something to work against it, how effective, how hard it could be is another factor, but the edge has already exist when you have to force your enemy to design something to counter your waepon, that will drain resources and manpower away from what you should focusing on. Which is to lead the edge.

The fact that both China and Russia locked in developing stealthy fifth gen fighter means the US has already won. Because, for the American, Stealth Fighter already existed for more than 3 decades, they knows for sure how to defeat it. So, when China and Russia eventually be able to produce their own stealthy aircraft, those effort are already wasted, simply because the American already knew how to defeat it.
 
F 22 can be shot down easily. you don't need this much effort.
 
10pisa media at it again. the Americans have their own stealth bombers far more advanced than the Chinese can ever copy off.
 
10pisa media at it again. the Americans have their own stealth bombers far more advanced than the Chinese can ever copy off.
let show it china can copy it in two weeks
 
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