SPIEGEL Interview with Pervez Musharraf

[Kinetic]

^^

Yeah, you're right... Kashmiris don't want freedom at all...

There are multiple views among the Kashmiris that includes Kashmiri Pandits.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Why are these points subjective? Well at least you do acknowledge that the terms in siding with the US could have been better negotiated... So you would understand why some people would consider Musharaf a sell out?

As for Sufi Muhammad... and the Taliban in Swat... what I do not understand is why the Army had to displace millions of people from their homes to go on a full fledge attack inside their own country... Tell me then... Was there any other approach utilized? You know as well as anyone else that the mess that Zia Ul Haq created in Karachi by supporting the MQM had to be removed at a painful cost by Army's intervention and it is an open fact that a lot of the Badmash of MQM had to be taken out... Could we not have tried such an approach?

Lastly it is not a conspiracy theory to state that the top brass in Pakistan's military enjoys massive resources and wealth... Pakistan's military does not run on profits from Fauji Foundation only rather it is the poor tax payers money that goes into our military's budget... It is not uncommon to hear people saying that for an Army that has not engaged in much action against its enemies, we should be cutting our defence budget to improve the situation of the poor people in Pakistan... Do you seriously believe that the Army has any other impression in Pakistan other than pathetic for what they have given to the nation in the form of a shameful defeat in 1971, rulers such as General Ayub, Yahya, Zia and now Musharaf... and inability to take Kashmir for the past 60 years? Whats subjective about that?

Will you also deny that Musharaf has pardoned massive amounts of debt that his friends in the military owed to the nation?

Lastly... It is no conspiracy that the Americans have published maps of a divided Pakistan in their armed forces journals... I think there has been a thread on this very forum about the whole thing... To state then that talk of threats to our country is mere conspiracy theory is denying obvious facts... Infact I have even read reports that Xe Services were actually employing retired Pakistani soldiers for doing their dirty work in our country...

The country has gone to the dogs... The poor man' back is breaking with each passing day... people are plotting against our land every day and here we are calling others conspiracy theorists and discussing the return of the same corrupt man who we tolerated for 8 years the gifts of whom we see with the situation we are faced with today...

Is it really Pakistan First?

No sir... Please admit it that we should be seriously thinking about sorting out our mess and taking on a more dignified approach to the problems that we are facing in our country... As a first step we should not get stung from the same hole more than once... This goes for both America and Musharaf...

 

[Mirza Jatt]

Pak rubbishes Musharraf's statement on militants

Islamabad: Stunned by Pervez Musharraf's admission that Pakistan had trained militant groups to fight in Kashmir, Islamabad today rubbished the former military ruler's statement as "baseless".

"I do not know really what prompted him (Musharraf) to say this because he is not in Pakistan and I would not really know as to the purpose of saying this," Pakistan Foreign Office Spokesman Abdul Basit said.

"But as far as government of Pakistan is concerned, I strongly refute these baseless suggestions," he was quoted as saying by a news channel.

Basit also said Pakistan supported Kashmiri people's struggle which he said was "purely indigenous and legitimate in accordance with UN charter and in accordance with international law

Earlier, Musharraf admitted that Pakistan had trained underground militant groups to fight in Kashmir, the first such admission by a top leader of the country.

Musharraf's candid remarks came days after he announced his return to active politics from London where he has been living in self-imposed exile.

"They (underground militant groups to fight against India in Kashmir) were indeed formed," Musharraf told German magazine Der Spiegel in an interview.


Read more at: Pak rubbishes Musharraf's statement on militants

So who is the liar here ?? musharraf or Pakistani Govt. ??

 

[T-Faz]

Why are these points subjective? Well at least you do acknowledge that the terms in siding with the US could have been better negotiated... So you would understand why some people would consider Musharaf a sell out?

Siding with the US was imperative, it was either on their side or on the opposing side. Th reason for this is very simple, we were an instrument in manufacturing these militants that attacked US on September 9/11.

If he was a sell out, our nuclear would be in US control, we would not be having international tussles with US on every matter relating to WOT.

As for Sufi Muhammad... and the Taliban in Swat... what I do not understand is why the Army had to displace millions of people from their homes to go on a full fledge attack inside their own country... Tell me then... Was there any other approach utilized? You know as well as anyone else that the mess that Zia Ul Haq created in Karachi by supporting the MQM had to be removed at a painful cost by Army's intervention and it is an open fact that a lot of the Badmash of MQM had to be taken out... Could we not have tried such an approach?

For Sufi Mohammed and his Malakand uprising in 1994, there was limited displacement, where as in recent times, the population had to be displaced because the problem was much greater and the militants were able to extend their attacks onto territories of their liking. Maulana Fazlullah (son-in-law of Sufi Mohammed) initiated all this and their capabilities were greatly increased. To keep civilian causalities low or no existent, displacement was necessary.

This mess belongs to Zia, he was the father of all this. Karachi is an important city and thus action was quick to come about. As for the FATA area, no one is interested in what occurs in that region.

Lastly it is not a conspiracy theory to state that the top brass in Pakistan's military enjoys massive resources and wealth... Pakistan's military does not run on profits from Fauji Foundation only rather it is the poor tax payers money that goes into our military's budget... It is not uncommon to hear people saying that for an Army that has not engaged in much action against its enemies, we should be cutting our defence budget to improve the situation of the poor people in Pakistan... Do you seriously believe that the Army has any other impression in Pakistan other than pathetic for what they have given to the nation in the form of a shameful defeat in 1971, rulers such as General Ayub, Yahya, Zia and now Musharaf... and inability to take Kashmir for the past 60 years? Whats subjective about that?

Not all of the top brass has been like that, certain ones have indulged in such and we know their names openly. Ayub Khan did turn Pakistan into the most progressive and least corrupt nation in Asia. Amongst his vices though were the promotions of Musa Khan (should have been Sher Ali Khan) and Yahya Khan (should have been Akhtar Hussain Malik), trickle down theory and the 22 families who were hogging all the nations hard earned cash. Had Gen. Akhtar Hussain Malik been allowed to carry on with Grand Slam, we would had Kashmir long ago.

Here, have a read: http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/59694-maj-general-akhtar-malik-1965-debacle.html

Will you also deny that Musharaf has pardoned massive amounts of debt that his friends in the military owed to the nation?

Corruption is a national past time, not everyone is involved but those who reach the very top are certainly are.

Lastly... It is no conspiracy that the Americans have published maps of a divided Pakistan in their armed forces journals... I think there has been a thread on this very forum about the whole thing... To state then that talk of threats to our country is mere conspiracy theory is denying obvious facts... Infact I have even read reports that Xe Services were actually employing retired Pakistani soldiers for doing their dirty work in our country...

The map you are referring to was produced by a very anti Muslim gentlemen and his map was a figment of imagination. Superpowers produce such maps, its a part of their strategy but it does not mean that they will be implemented. Soviets had a map showing Greater Balochistan in the late 70's and a broken Pakistan too.

As for Blackwater/Xe, we have never been able to obtain substantial evidence. Though it could be a ploy by our very own government to keep the focus on such nonsense matters while the other important matters are overlooked.

The country has gone to the dogs... The poor man' back is breaking with each passing day... people are plotting against our land every day and here we are calling others conspiracy theorists and discussing the return of the same corrupt man who we tolerated for 8 years the gifts of whom we see with the situation we are faced with today...

Is it really Pakistan First?

Musharraf slashed poverty by huge numbers during his tenure, he put the economy of Pakistan on the right track and introduced a better system that made us progressive. Sure there were still a lot of problems but it would take decades of consistent progress to rid ourselves of our social and economical problems.

No sir... Please admit it that we should be seriously thinking about sorting out our mess and taking on a more dignified approach to the problems that we are facing in our country... As a first step we should not get stung from the same hole more than once... This goes for both America and Musharaf...

We are all thinking of a better approach to our problems and sorting it all out. But in the land where corrupt are admired while honest, hardworking men are ignored, nothing could be achieved overnight. In our country, it is easier to concentrate on Xe and insipid interpretations of various laws then on development and education. Like Musharraf said, the civil society was poisoned for 10 years in the 80's and we suffer terribly because of it.

We will turn it all around though, this time is a lesson that we should learn from and adapt a modern approach as set out by our great leader Jinnah. We have to be the progressive democratic Muslim state were religion plays no part in the affairs of state. Only then we will achieve a good future, we tried our variation of religious laws, but they have been only used by crooks to further their cause. Like I said, religion is a personal and important matter, not to be used for ill gains or poisoning the minds of people.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

hmmm... looks like there is lots of support for Musharaf on this forum... and despite the fact that I disagree with some of what he said, I liked TFaz's above post for its clarity...

The issue about the new Maps for our country is not this simple... How dare someone even thinks that he can divide our land like this... Our country should at least demand that we be given the chopped hands of the man who dared to write such a thing!!!

I think Musharaf must have had some opposition in selling our nuclear assets... You mention his economic achievements... I have posted a big article about that... whats so big about an economic achievement that is based on loans? Has nt Musharaf and the city banker Shaukat Aziz sold off the gold deposits at Riko Diq?

Ok Mr TFaz bhai (maybe I should say Uncle)... why should we separate religion from the affairs of this state?... Dont you think that Islam provides solutions that we can apply... Otherwise how are we ever going to change this corruption... Since people have no Taqwa (genuine fear of God or fear of punishment in this life or the next), this is the very reason why we have corruption in the first place...

I have given two examples on the forum before... We have a situation in Pakistan where certain land lords proudly claim that many train stations lie within their land... we would have no problem with that as long as these feudal land lords would not treat the people who work on these lands as their personal slaves... Farmers and their children should also have the right to education (we would all agree on that)... and also use the land for agriculture... but then according to survey reports that I have, half of the cultivatable land in Pakistan is not being used for agriculture... I mean what is the problem if we apply Islam in this situation and take the land and give it to someone who would put it to use? Similarly why cant we use the revenue generated by oil/gas wealth for public services like hospitals, schools, libraries, infrastructure (roads, rail lines, communications) etc? This again is an Islamic solution instead of what we have in capitalism where everything gets privatized and its benefit reaches a few people... recipe for making the rich richer and poor poorer...

Seriously... we should not take such an approach as to reject the economic model of Islam... I think there is great wisdom in abolishing Fiat Currency, Fractional Reserve Banking and Interest based transactions... More importantly it is an obligation like our prayers and fasting to do so... How will you justify a Riba based system when there is declaration of war against this system and those who run it in our holy book? Why should we not think about adopting the gold/silver standard, implementing Zakat (savings tax) and abolish income tax (or for that matter all sorts of other taxes GST, VAT etc)...

Surely death is closer than our shoe laces... and Judgement day is not farther from that either... We may not see the day after tonight thats how unpredictable this world is...

but at least we are talking...

Tell you what... May Allah give you health and long life along with myself... we can meet after ten years and Pakistan will still be in the same mess infact even worse condition if we continue to remain secular... Ideological states are far more progressive and appealing to me compared to the confused combination of Islam and Capitalism that we are applying in our country since its inception...

Also if you choose to answer sometimes... do tell me if you are aware of the word "Milbus"...

 

[Nothing]

So who is the liar here ?? musharraf or Pakistani Govt. ??

More precisely Ex-President or current President

 

[Ras]

The statements about militants has diverted from topic at hand but it would be good to shed some light on it and understand the context in which it is being said.

This militancy that was nurtured for Kashmir was a part of Zia's doctrine. Having ousted many of our great and brave generals, the regime at that time concentrated solely on proxy war owing to the soviet invasion of Afghanistan. The art of arming and using insurgents was perfected in the 80's against the soviets to such an extent, that Zia decided to use it in Kashmir too. 'Death by a thousand cuts' was the motto and the Soviets suffered from so many cuts that they did not have any strategy left to counter the Mujahideen threat. Militancy in Kashmir rose during the late 80's and early 90's because this was the strategy at that time. This is what Musharraf is alluding to in this interview and it is very fair to say that this strategy was a failure and caused colossal damage to us.

As soon as General Asif Nawaz become COAS, he stopped utilizing this technique and that has been followed by all other Army chiefs who followed his tenure. The problem arose in relation to this strategy that the militants created turned their guns onto their own countrymen. They started attacking minorities and this harmed us a lot as it continues to do so.

This strategy was a part of a bygone era and is over. Musharraf has done the right thing in stating what had been done, similarly Sharif also stated that their Afghanistan strategy was a failure.

The matter is all but dead, the militants are our enemy now, India underwent the same experience with Tamil Tigers. The rogue elements we so often hear about are remnants from the era when they utilized this technique and still do so against our own and others.

Zia was a smart guy..short sighted on the impact of his policies on civil society but by all accounts smart.I am not sure how and why he thought that the Guerrilla war fare which busted the Soviets would work against India in Kashmir. For one Afghanistan is a big battle ground. Kashmir is not especially when you realize that the Kashmir valley is the only place inside Kashmir where the the fighting would take place. India can and has thrown a huge concentration of forces into the fray as the area to cover is really small relatively speaking.

An armed uprising was always destined to fail.

 

[T-Faz]

The issue about the new Maps for our country is not this simple... How dare someone even thinks that he can divide our land like this... Our country should at least demand that we be given the chopped hands of the man who dared to write such a thing!!!

It works both ways, there are many who call for destruction or end of some western countries and Israel. If we were to go by such a method of punishment for such a small matter, there wont be anyone left because everyone harbors such thoughts for one country or another. The response should be calm and collective, to remove the problems that would allow for someone to come up to such a conclusion.

I think Musharaf must have had some opposition in selling our nuclear assets... You mention his economic achievements... I have posted a big article about that... whats so big about an economic achievement that is based on loans? Has nt Musharaf and the city banker Shaukat Aziz sold off the gold deposits at Riko Diq?

Though there have been discussions on whether the economic lift during his tenure was only possible because of aid and loans. No one can deny that foreign investments were an all time high, we were making advancements in many fields and economic indicators are testament to that. We were listed in Next 11 economies, major financial outlets opened their offices in Pakistan and the economic condition of Pakistan was profoundly positive. Perhaps you should browse the Economy & Development section of this website and look at the articles being posted in the years of Musharraf. You will notice how positive they are in their outlook and how we were actually being commended for something which has been a rarity.

As for our natural reserves in Reko Diq, Thar and other places. We lack the machinery and industry to utilize them and elevate our economy. We do not know how to extract gold from Reko Diq, we do not have the expertise on refining them and we do not have the companies who can market our products.

Ok Mr TFaz bhai (maybe I should say Uncle)... why should we separate religion from the affairs of this state?... Dont you think that Islam provides solutions that we can apply... Otherwise how are we ever going to change this corruption... Since people have no Taqwa (genuine fear of God or fear of punishment in this life or the next), this is the very reason why we have corruption in the first place...

The thing about implementing Islamic laws is that it would be irrelevant in a society like ours where knowledge of religion is very low and it is used as a political tool. You can implement Sharia overnight but it will not end corruption, tyranny or ill practices of our society. Things will continue on the same path because when the people are not the ones who bring about change, how can any law compel them to change their ways. When there is limited understanding of Islam and religious leaders who use religion as a means for gains for themselves and corrupt leaders. We would still suffer from same problems and more because our religious clergy is one major part of the mess we are in.

Similarly, the value of Islam will be negated if it is implemented because all our ills will then be associated with religion, as they are now by some people especially westerners.

Another thing you should note is that Islam has multiple sects and many are found within Pakistan. There is no universal interpretation, what might be the correct interpretation for you may not be the same for a person from another sect. Zia's adapted Islamization was Wahabi friendly, Shia's protested heavily against it but could not stop the process from being implemented. As a result, sectarian violence grew and many sects ended up producing violent groups for harming each other.

I have given two examples on the forum before... We have a situation in Pakistan where certain land lords proudly claim that many train stations lie within their land... we would have no problem with that as long as these feudal land lords would not treat the people who work on these lands as their personal slaves... Farmers and their children should also have the right to education (we would all agree on that)... and also use the land for agriculture... but then according to survey reports that I have, half of the cultivatable land in Pakistan is not being used for agriculture... I mean what is the problem if we apply Islam in this situation and take the land and give it to someone who would put it to use? Similarly why cant we use the revenue generated by oil/gas wealth for public services like hospitals, schools, libraries, infrastructure (roads, rail lines, communications) etc? This again is an Islamic solution instead of what we have in capitalism where everything gets privatized and its benefit reaches a few people... recipe for making the rich richer and poor poorer...

Do you know that our religious leaders are closely allied with feudal lords and they twist religious scriptures to validate what the feudal lords get up to. We do not have the enlightened, modest and honest religious leaders to implement all this.

Seriously... we should not take such an approach as to reject the economic model of Islam... I think there is great wisdom in abolishing Fiat Currency, Fractional Reserve Banking and Interest based transactions... More importantly it is an obligation like our prayers and fasting to do so... How will you justify a Riba based system when there is declaration of war against this system and those who run it in our holy book? Why should we not think about adopting the gold/silver standard, implementing Zakat (savings tax) and abolish income tax (or for that matter all sorts of other taxes GST, VAT etc)...

The problem is we play on another mans table and we have to play by their rules. If the Muslim world was strong and independent, we could have implemented these but as our economies are interlinked with western economies and they are our lifeline. We could not implement what would contradict the model that is set up. Our biggest export market is US, if we go against them or do not deal in their system, we are surely doomed.

Tell you what... May Allah give you health and long life along with myself... we can meet after ten years and Pakistan will still be in the same mess infact even worse condition if we continue to remain secular... Ideological states are far more progressive and appealing to me compared to the confused combination of Islam and Capitalism that we are applying in our country since its inception...

Also if you choose to answer sometimes... do tell me if you are aware of the word "Milbus"...

We are not a secular country, we have a much abused constitution which is contradictory and in effect negates the value of religion. We have certain aspects of Islamic laws, those too being torrid interpretations which have brought our people misery and Pakistan international shame.

We are in a mess because of half baked fusion of religion and democracy that is unworkable. We either set out to be as we were intended to be by our founding father or lest we conform to our messy state and continue to struggle.

As for 'Milbus', I am aware of it.

 

[Developereo]

This pseudo emotional angle of Kashmiris dying doesnt carry any weight any more.

There is nothing pseudo about it; their suffering is real.

Pakistan will not be a good flag bearer of this issue in the world body

This is where the economic argument comes in. People (countries) get remarkable epiphanies when their pocket book is involved. Witness Cameron's sycophancy while visiting India...

Allies based on economic clout is a zero sum game.

Please see below...

Because of Pakistan's association with this so called struggle, it has been relegated to a second class status of a cross border insurgency/terrorism.

The economic argument applies here, too.

China and India are improving their relations.....yet no one is selling out anything to anybody, no???

The matter of China-India relations is a whole other subject and, despite initial misgivings, I am convinced that Pakistan has absolutely nothing to worry about. The China-India relationship will never achieve the kind of quality that permeates the China-Pakistan relationship.

Friendship b/w India and Pakistan is the only way Kashmir can be resolved.

I don't think India is in the mood for friendship, but rather dada giri. Not saying Pakistan is innocent either, but I don't see friendship on the cards in the near future.

LOC will be converted to International border
[...]
Those who are not happy with their respective regime can easily use the invisible border.

This is precisely why I am against legitimizing the status quo. It gives the win to India and turns the Kashmiri separatists into refugees. They have to leave their land and their possessions and flee to Pakistan. They can do that now anyway, what do they gain by such a 'solution'?

We have discussed this many times and you still seem to ignoring that discussion....Look indian economy is pretty much internal economy. I donot see that in near future(read decades) this is going to change.

Not ignoring. That is why I prefixed my comment with "As India opens up to the world". India cannot sustain itself long term purely on a domestic market. It has to enmesh itself into the global economy at some point. You feel it doesn't need to for decades. I don't know if it can, or want to, remain insulated for so long.

However even if we take your logic on face value(though not completely correct) just look at China. Their economy is very much export oriented yet they are not much worried about international economic pressure's..why???

India is a democracy. Will the voting businessman in Gujarat or Kerala care about Kashmir if he loses a global business deal because the international client didn't want to alienate their (important) Pakistani customers? What is more important to him: Kashmir or his business?

Moreover please tell why will world community put economic pressure on india for the sake of Pakistan???

They wouldn't do it out of love for Pakistan but for themselves. Right now, for many countries, the choice between India and Pakistan is a no-brainer. One is growing in power, while the other is mired in problems so they support the Indian position on Kashmir, just to stay on India's good side. There is no penalty for alienating Pakistan.

An economically powerful Pakistan would change all that. It would make countries think twice before supporting India blindly.

This we don't know...However one thing is for sure, less the violence more will be development and less the anger. However saying that just development alone will win hearts of Kashmiri's will be like living in fools paradise...but more autonomy complemented with development and no Pak interference will bring back Kashmir to normal for sure

All the more reason for Pakistan to develop its economy so the economic contrast doesn't become stark.

 

[Ras]

You are thinking this all wrong Developereo...Pakistan can never become that important economically compared to India that countries will put economic pressure on India to favor Pakistan. The demographics just do not favor Pakistan on that account.

The best way Kashmir can be solved is to do what is happening right now...spontaneous outbursts against the state by students. India is a democracy..the images will carry inside the country and when they cannot blame Pakistan the Indian government starts flapping about in panic. I bet you that the Indian government wants the students in the Kashmir valley to take guns instead of stones...they know how to deal with guns,they have no idea what to do with stones.

The biggest damage done to the Kashmir cause was the militants taking up guns and chasing the Kashmiri minorities out of the valley.Kashmir cannot be won by guns...the battle ground is just too small.

 

[r3alist]

India is a democracy..

please explain this sentence vis a vis kashmir

disgusting acts of brutality including **** and murder by the indian army on a regular basis

curfews

police brutality

lack of accountability

lack of democracy


the question i ask is where do you get the chutzpah from to associate india with democracy and proper governance when it is doing acts like the above to its "own" population?


this is a crime.

 

[third eye]

Zia was a smart guy..short sighted on the impact of his policies on civil society but by all accounts smart.I am not sure how and why he thought that the Guerrilla war fare which busted the Soviets would work against India in Kashmir. For one Afghanistan is a big battle ground. Kashmir is not especially when you realize that the Kashmir valley is the only place inside Kashmir where the the fighting would take place. India can and has thrown a huge concentration of forces into the fray as the area to cover is really small relatively speaking.

An armed uprising was always destined to fail.

Inability to think it thru to its logical end making allowance for all possible contingencies has been the bane of all Pak dictators.

Ayub - Op Grand Slam collapsed when India threatened lahore.
Yahya - Op Searchlight led to the dismemberment of the nation.
Zia - The effects of his thought & short sighted policies are being felt today in form of religious fundamentalism.
Mush - Kargil , U Turn on Af,Lal Masjid to name a few.

With time all dictators get surrounded by yes men and they get so full of themselves that they begin to feel they are always right. The fallout is felt later.

 

[jahangeer yousaf]

he has gone mad .......idiot ............... not a trustworthy person ...... on one hand start kargil operation with mujahideen ....... and on other hand calling them terrorist ............ barking about dr AQ ....... lolz trying to convince americans again ..................

 

[ice_man]

he is an old man! with no power base! but still nostalgic about his past! he wants to remain in the headlines...how does he do that:

ANSWER: SAY WE TRAINED PEOPLE TO GO FIGHT IN KASHMIR!


& he succeeded NDTV & ZEE NEWS made sure he was in the headlines! BBC also mentioned him & his interview and so did all the papers world wide!

mission accomplished mushi! i guess a few more lies and outrageous claims & you might make it to front page of all newspapers & 9 o clock news in every country!

 

[T-Faz]

Ayub - Op Grand Slam collapsed when India threatened lahore.

Please correct your history, Op Grand Slam failed because Gen Akhtar Hussain Malik was replaced with Yahya.

Otherwise, it is a noted and well known fact that Indian forces were in disarray and losing confidence. Your own soldiers have written about this and the other famous general Iftikhar Janjua and the Rann of Kutch affair.

Had Gen Malik been allowed to progress forward into Akhnoor, things would be much different.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/59694-maj-general-akhtar-malik-1965-debacle.html