Solving Pakistan-India conflict with rational and realpolitikal approach!

[Norwegian]

In light of recent revelations from my present country Norway, its been revealed from the capital Oslo that Nobel Peace Prize for 2014 went to 17-year-old Pakistani Malala Yousafzai and India’s Kailash Satyarthi for their work promoting children’s rights. Despite usual rants from local norwegians calling this year's winners for being selectively chosen for political purposes, many people internationally are actually applauding the decision taken by the Norwegian Nobel Committee. Both winners are invited to collect their respected prizes here in Oslo at a grand ceremony which is due to be held on 10th December 2014, sharing at least 1 million dollar worth of cash.

I therefore invite both Indians and Pakistanis lurking around this great forum to share their thoughts on how we two extremely proud nations can move forward despite our deep rooted ideological conflicts? If leader of the free capitalist world US can approach state communist China in the 1970's, jumpstarting revival of the Chinese economy, thus turning it into an economic giant decades later. Then why can't we Pakistanis and Indians try the same realpolitikal rational approach instead of finding new arenas for humiliating each other? Once Pakistan and India are interconnected through our mutual economic interests, like a union such as EU, we would soon forget why we became such bitter enemies in the first place! Fortune recently revealed that Indian Subcontinent during Mughal Era produced at least 25 % of world global output during its peak in 1700's:

Mughal Empire in India, circa 1700 AD: 25% of global output

Indian civilization is one of the oldest in the world, and many empires have risen and fallen on the subcontinent throughout the centuries. But among its most economically vibrant was the Moghul Empire, which dated from the sixteenth century until the establishment of the British Raj in the middle of the 19th. According to the late economic historian Angus Maddison, the per capita output of Mughal-era India was likely about the same as in England or France at the time, but “India had a ruling class whose extravagant lifestyle surpassed that of the European society.” This was achieved, however, “by subjecting the population to a high degree of exploitation.”

Though European traders who visited India during this time were impressed by the Mughal court, which Maddison describes as “one of the most brilliant in the world,” with its walled castles, gardens, fountains, literature, and painting, the Indian people were uninterested in the goods Westerners had to trade, beyond gold. Such a dynamic fueled the plunder of the newly discovered Americas for its wealth of precious metals. This persisted throughout the Mughal era, as European explorers began to insinuate themselves further into Indian society. The Mughal empire slowly decayed amid the rise of the industrialized British Empire, which officially colonized the subcontinent in the middle of the 19th century.

Fortune 5: The most powerful economic empires of all time - Fortune

We can of course quarrel for the next millennia on WHO did WHAT in the past while rest of the world moves along leaving us behind. Isn't it time that our honourable leaders sit together, finalize a strategy based on rationalism, that is common issues both our nations are facing since independence like hunger, poverty, homelessness etc etc. These eternal issues cannot be resolved independently because we have historically been one unit sharing this region's vast natural resources equally until British came along and colonized us. So my point being is that instead of wasting billion of RS annually on defense spending, we should instead invest it on cross border trade. When our economies are linked again as it has been in the past, progress and prosperity will follow for both our people's best interest.
Europe learned this historical lesson the hard way after massacring at least 60 million of their own people during WW2. Could we learn from their mistakes instead of repeating our own?

 

[Norwegian]

Tagging:
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[TankMan]

Its a great Idea but I have a feeling it will turn into another Pakistan-India keyboard war. Still, lets try.

Now, the first thing we need to discuss is the reason behind this conflict on a micro (individual) level. Why do Pakistanis and Indians hate eachother? Now, each side will blame the other.
Lets try to find facts.

In my opinion, It is mainly the incompatibility of Hinduism and Islam. Now neither is a bad religion, it's about bad people. Islam is not bad, some Muslims are. Hinduism is not bad, some Hindus are.
I think we need to come to a compromise, like the Quran says in surah Al Kafiroon:

"Say O disbelievers
I do not worship what you worship.

Nor are you worshippers of what I worship.
Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship.
Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship.
For you is your religion, and for me is my religion."

From a political point of view, the main tension was because of religion. There was no other reason Indian Muslims and Hindus couldn't be one nation

We have similar culture, similar languages, similar looks, similar everything except religion. So why all the hatred? I'd love to see some civilized talk here.

 

[Norwegian]

Its a great Idea but I have a feeling it will turn into another Pakistan-India keyboard war. Still, lets try.

This thread was meant to end the war not extend it.

Now, the first thing we need to discuss is the reason behind this conflict on a micro (individual) level. Why do Pakistanis and Indians hate eachother? Now, each side will blame the other.

They don't. In fact they are fed with mass lies by their respected leaders, education system and media from early childhood into believing white lies of perceived "proudness" and "honour" of their respective nations, something that really does not exist in a practical world.

In my opinion, It is mainly the incompatibility of Hinduism and Islam. Now neither is a bad religion, it's about bad people. Islam is not bad, some Muslims are. Hinduism is not bad, some Hindus are.

Again, old stereotypes. I don't think main problem between Pakistanis and Indians is religion as many Indians happen to be Muslim and they equally dislike Pakistan for some unknown reasons.

From a political point of view, the main tension as because of religion. There was no other reason Indian Muslims and Hindus couldn't be one nation

Not true. I have many Indian friends here in Norway. Some of them are my closest neighbors. All of them are Hindus. We do everything together. They come at our place on Eid. I go to them on Diwali. While we celebrate Christmas together with the local Christians.
After experiencing that much intra-religious harmony here in the liberal West, I have come to the conclusion that our core conflict is not religious at all because outside our native countries, we are the best of friends and allies. Here, many norwegians laugh at us when we tell them that our armies are shooting at each other while we are having fun with barbecues and grill in our lush green gardens .

We have similar culture, similar languages, similar looks, similar everything except religion. So why all the hatred? I'd love to see some civilized talk here.

Yes, lets try some civilized talk then. Starting with the fact that root cause of this conflict is not religious. Its roots can be traced back to ultranationalism based on Hindu nationalist and Muslim nationalist lines.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Any soft image for Pakistan is good these days , a welcomed decision however not sure why it was announced same time as an Indian recipient

Mr Idhi does deserves Nobel for Humanitarian work as well long before Malala but any good news is acceptable

 

[TankMan]

This thread was meant to end the war not extend it.


They don't. In fact they are fed with mass lies by their respected leaders, education system and media from early childhood into believing white lies of perceived "proudness" and "honour" of their respective nations, something that really does not exist in a practical world.


Again, old stereotypes. I don't think main problem between Pakistanis and Indians is religion as many Indians happen to be Muslim and they equally dislike Pakistan for some unknown reasons.


Not true. I have many Indian friends here in Norway. Some of them are my closest neighbors. All of them are Hindus. We do everything together. They come at our place on Eid. I go to them on Diwali. While we celebrate Christmas together with the local Christians.
After experiencing that much intra-religious harmony here in the liberal West, I have come to the conclusion that our core conflict is not religious at all because outside our native countries, we are the best of friends and allies. Here, many norwegians laugh at us when we tell them that our armies are shooting at each other while we are having fun with barbecues and grill in our lush green gardens .


Yes, lets try some civilized talk then. Starting with the fact that root cause of this conflict is not religious. Its roots can be traced ultra-nationalism based on Hindu nationalist and Muslim nationalist lines.

Yes, I agree, proudness is a very big issue in both countries. What's funny is that pride in general is discouraged in Islam.
Pakistanis love boasting about random good stuff while Indians love boasting about their random good stuff. The politicians capitalize on that during incidents such as the border violations etc.

I agree with all you have said, just one thing, that It was actually religion that divided the two people in the first place. But blaming it is useless, so I agree, lets move on and discuss more recent things. Now If only some Indian would comment, I'd like to see the other side's views.

 

[JustAnotherWomen]

Its a great Idea but I have a feeling it will turn into another Pakistan-India keyboard war. Still, lets try.

Now, the first thing we need to discuss is the reason behind this conflict on a micro (individual) level. Why do Pakistanis and Indians hate eachother? Now, each side will blame the other.
Lets try to find facts.

In my opinion, It is mainly the incompatibility of Hinduism and Islam. Now neither is a bad religion, it's about bad people. Islam is not bad, some Muslims are. Hinduism is not bad, some Hindus are.
I think we need to come to a compromise, like the Quran says in surah Al Kafiroon:

"Say O disbelievers
I do not worship what you worship.

Nor are you worshippers of what I worship.
Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship.
Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship.
For you is your religion, and for me is my religion."

From a political point of view, the main tension was because of religion. There was no other reason Indian Muslims and Hindus couldn't be one nation

We have similar culture, similar languages, similar looks, similar everything except religion. So why all the hatred? I'd love to see some civilized talk here.

reasons are more political than being religious. Pakistan though made on the name of islam but had political reasons contrary to popular belief.

As far as kashmir goes call it biogotry or what ever the truth is jiski lathi uski bhens. I cannot be more clearer than that. If pakistan was america kashmir would be with them islamic or unislamic doesnt matter because its important.

Islam as a religion is the most exploited religion by its very own followers. Do anything wrong justify it with a verse. and i dont if people are really that fools to buy those justifications.

India on the other hand has this mental disability to look themseles as bada bhai and always try to be a bollywood bhai in the region.


On people to people level it doesnt matter no one gives a fck. RIght now i would be killing the minions and if the minion appeared would be having hyderabadi biryani with them whom i was daggering.

 

[TankMan]

reasons are more political than being religious. Pakistan though made on the name of islam but had political reasons contrary to popular belief.

As far as kashmir goes call it biogotry or what ever the truth is jiski lathi uski bhens. I cannot be more clearer than that. If pakistan was america kashmir would be with them islamic or unislamic doesnt matter because its important.

Islam as a religion is the most exploited religion by its very own followers. Do anything wrong justify it with a verse. and i dont if people are really that fools to buy those justifications.

India on the other hand has this mental disability to look themseles as bada bhai and always try to be a bollywood bhai in the region.


On people to people level it doesnt matter no one gives a fck. RIght now i would be killing the minions and if the minion appeared would be having hyderabadi biryani with them whom i was daggering.

I understand your idea of political motives. But for the normal people, It was religion that divided them, not political motives.
I was talking about the normal people.

Do anything wrong justify it with a verse

There is absolutely no way you could justify the murder of an innocent, a suicide bombing or anything terrorists do with a verse. I challenge you to try and justify any of that with a verse from the Quran.

people are really that fools to buy those justifications

This. Some fools could be made to believe that "apple pie" means "mass murder".

 

[FaujHistorian]

In light of recent revelations from my present country Norway, its been revealed from the capital Oslo that Nobel Peace Prize for 2014 went to 17-year-old Pakistani Malala Yousafzai and India’s Kailash Satyarthi for their work promoting children’s rights. Despite usual rants from local norwegians calling this year's winners for being selectively chosen for political purposes, many people internationally are actually applauding the decision taken by the Norwegian Nobel Committee. Both winners are invited to collect their respected prizes here in Oslo at a grand ceremony which is due to be held on 10th December 2014, sharing at least 1 million dollar worth of cash.

I therefore invite both Indians and Pakistanis lurking around this great forum to share their thoughts on how we two extremely proud nations can move forward despite our deep rooted ideological conflicts? If leader of the free capitalist world US can approach state communist China in the 1970's, jumpstarting revival of the Chinese economy, thus turning it into an economic giant decades later. Then why can't we Pakistanis and Indians try the same realpolitikal rational approach instead of finding new arenas for humiliating each other? Once Pakistan and India are interconnected through our mutual economic interests, like a union such as EU, we would soon forget why we became such bitter enemies in the first place! Fortune recently revealed that Indian Subcontinent during Mughal Era produced at least 25 % of world global output during its peak in 1700's:


Fortune 5: The most powerful economic empires of all time - Fortune

We can of course quarrel for the next millennia on WHO did WHAT in the past while rest of the world moves along leaving us behind. Isn't it time that our honourable leaders sit together, finalize a strategy based on rationalism, that is common issues both our nations are facing since independence like hunger, poverty, homelessness etc etc. These eternal issues cannot be resolved independently because we have historically been one unit sharing this region's vast natural resources equally until British came along and colonized us. So my point being is that instead of wasting billion of RS annually on defense spending, we should instead invest it on cross border trade. When our economies are linked again as it has been in the past, progress and prosperity will follow for both our people's best interest.
Europe learned this historical lesson the hard way after massacring at least 60 million of their own people during WW2. Could we learn from their mistakes instead of repeating our own?

it is a noble thread.


But please remember that our part of the world is cursed with the germs of intolerance.

We are the people who are little kings and queens inside, and that means we want our view to be imposed on everyone else.


Before we jump on establishing peace with India, do you ever wonder about something even more important?

Establshing peace and tolerance within Pakistan?

Right now Imran Khan and Qadri have launched crusade to topple the system. They both have blind supporters who are shouting go this go and go that go.

What is that?

Same blind intolerance that Indian BJP and right wingers have.

So I urge you to establish rational dialogue at home before starting one with the neighbors.

Thank you.

 

[JustAnotherWomen]

I understand your idea of political motives. But for the normal people, It was religion that divided them, not political motives.
I was talking about the normal people.

see normal people like you and me are driven by local politics and upbrining which is fed until internet age opened up the pandora box. 20 years down the line a pakistani was a gun tottling mullah for me and may be a hindu was a cow piss drinking pundit for you. That is what was fed too people. As an indian the demarcation was of pakistani not of muslim as we interacted with muslims everyday.

There is absolutely no way you could justify the murder of an innocent, a suicide bombing or anything terrorists do with a verse. I challenge you to try and justify any of that with a verse from the Quran.


This. Some fools could be made to believe that apple pie means mass murder.

Exactly... That is what i said . Islam is the most exploited religon. There is nothing wrong with islam but equally everything wrong with muslims (dont mean to generalise)

 

[Norwegian]

Mr Idhi does deserves Nobel for Humanitarian work as well long before Malala but any good news is acceptable

I have talked with Norwegian Nobel Committee in a press conference few years ago where I asked them how they decide the winners. They said that evaluation process is very strict and their methods are confidential.
Then I asked if politics was the prime motivator for deciding the winners. They replied that Nobel Committee is a non-political organization. Although I doubt it

I agree with all you have said, just one thing, that It was actually religion that divided the two people in the first place. But blaming it is useless, so I agree, lets move on and discuss more recent things. Now If only some Indian would comment, I'd like to see the other side's views.

India is a land of religions. Before Muslims came along, this land was already majority Hindu and Buddhist. Although a minority of Jews, Zoroastrians and later Christians joined as well. Now if every Indian religion had started demanding independence on communal lines, the nation was already broken up. For some reasons still unknown and hotly debated today, Indian Congress along with British Raj agreed Muslim League's unreasonable demands for partition, even though millions of Muslims were still going to be remained inside new Indian borders after the partition with even greater Hindu majority. Thus Muslim Indian leaders by their own hands divided one huge Muslim Indian minority into three small pieces: West Pakistan (current Pakistan), East Pakistan (which later became Bangladesh) and Kashmir (later occupied by both Pakistan and India). What a bunch of fools!

Islam as a religion is the most exploited religion by its very own followers. Do anything wrong justify it with a verse. and i dont if people are really that fools to buy those justifications.

Very well said. Cannot disagree on that one. But what can you expect from a religion that from early childhood teaches you that this is the ONLY truth out there

 

[JustAnotherWomen]

it is a noble thread.


But please remember that our part of the world is cursed with the germs of intolerance.

We are the people who are little kings and queens inside, and that means we want our view to be imposed on everyone else.


Before we jump on establishing peace with India, do you ever wonder about something even more important?

Establshing peace and tolerance within Pakistan?

Right now Imran Khan and Qadri have launched crusade to topple the system. They both have blind supporters who are shouting go this go and go that go.

What is that?

Same blind intolerance that Indian BJP and right wingers have.

So I urge you to establish rational dialogue at home before starting one with the neighbors.

Thank you.

Right arrow shot in wrong direction.

We people of india never voted BJP to power for some hinduism candy. we want devlopment. BJP is full of nuts off course. Till they are just doing lip service but giving results on economic show its show. Another gujrat and BJP would be dumped so deep in sea that no mariner will find it.

 

[MilSpec]

Phase I
>declare LoC the international border,
>partition the J&K state, just like punjab and accept current positions, give up claims for entire state
>amalgate respective kashmiri population in each countries with constitutional equality.
>eradicate militant organisations in pakistani side
>Sign a 100 year peace treaty

Phase II
After a decade of Phase I implementation
>Form unified trade bloc and duty free trade on both sides
>Eradicate non-tarrif barriers on Indian side.
>Give concession to pakistani traders in Indian markets
>meaningful application of MFN
>People to people connection

 

[Norwegian]

Right now Imran Khan and Qadri have launched crusade to topple the system. They both have blind supporters who are shouting go this go and go that go.

This thread is not up for discussion regarding internal Pakistani politics. If you wanna discuss just that, start another thread in Pakistani Siasat Section. Thank you!

 

[JustAnotherWomen]

Phase I
>declare LoC the international border,
>partition the J&K state, just like punjab and accept current positions, give up claims for entire state
>amalgate respective kashmiri population in each countries with constitutional equality.
>eradicate militant organisations in pakistani side
>Sign a 100 peace treaty

Phase II
After a decade of Phase I implementation
>Form unified trade bloc and duty free trade on both sides
>Eradicate non-tarrif barriers on Indian side.
>Give concession to pakistani traders in Indian markets
>meaningful application of MFN
>People to people connection

or make the entire BSF and Pakistani Rangers women

There will be no firing just bunch jealous b itches not talking to each other because of shoes.