So here's my fan theory on the Zarb Missile.

[Armchair]

So all this about the range of Harbah, Zarb, and their commonality or not is just fan speculation?

Harbah is a Navalised Babur-II (WS2)
.

So perhaps the above type of statements should not be made in this way but qualified as speculation. You're making bold and flat statements about something without anything to back it up.

 

[Kompromat]

Of course. That's why i called it a "fan theory" myself. Guess we'll know in due course.

So all this about the range of Harbah, Zarb, and their commonality or not is just fan speculation?



So perhaps the above type of statements should not be made in this way but qualified as speculation. You're making bold and flat statements about something without anything to back it up.

 

[Armchair]

Of course. That's why i called it a "fan theory" myself. Guess we'll know in due course.

My fan opinion is that the Harba and the Zarb are more or less the same systems, one is ship based, another is land based. They should be better quality systems than Chinese manufacture but are probably indigenized versions of the C-602 and mainly for anti-ship duties.

Of course NESCOM will try its best to put as many local components as possible and without the MTCR restrictions, can make it a bit longer, with more range.

My guess would be 350-400 km range.

An anti ship missile is a big achievement for Pakistan. Hopefully they can bring them to operational service soon.

 

[Maarkhoor]

1. PN already has 120 C-602s in service, they were bought off the shelf to service long overdue coastal defense needs.
2. Zarb is not C-602 per say. If we compare the two, its apparent that Zarb is a sleeker and longer than the C-602.
3. My theory is that C-602 technology has been cross bred with Babur Cruise Missile, especially the Babur WS-II. Maybe even some western sub systems.
4. This enables us to bypass MTCR export restrictions and therefore it wouldn't be a surprise if Zarb's range would be close to the original C-602, which is about 400km.
5. It also means that we might be able to produce this system in quantities deemed desirable for coastal defense needs. We might even be able to export it in the long term.

What's your pov?

View attachment 468651 View attachment 468652

I am agree with you....Zarb is a hybrid child of Babur and C-602.

 

[AMG_12]

As @Horus claimed, Zarb is an elongated/modified version of C-602. Can it be that Harbah is also C602? As it's not a variant of Babur. The canisters are quite similar for both. Also the Strategic Forces are quite open with nomenclature, all variants of Babur still carry the title of Babur despite their varying roles. Naval Cruise Missiles have different names. A variant of C602 carried by an FAC makes a lot more sense. just my 2cents.

 

[Kompromat]

Harba is bigger. More in the league of Babur. You must understand that its a dual attack mode missile. The aerodynamics are also different.

As @Horus claimed, Zarb is an elongated/modified version of C-602. Can it be that Harbah is also C602? As it's not a variant of Babur. The canisters are quite similar for both. Also the Strategic Forces are quite open with nomenclature, all variants of Babur still carry the title of Babur despite their varying roles. Naval Cruise Missiles have different names. A variant of C602 carried by an FAC makes a lot more sense. just my 2cents.

 

[Fawad alam]

Dear one question, what is the future of subsonic cruise missiles over advance Indian/Israeli defense systems?

 

[The Deterrent]

1. PN already has 120 C-602s in service, they were bought off the shelf to service long overdue coastal defense needs.
2. Zarb is not C-602 per say. If we compare the two, its apparent that Zarb is a sleeker and longer than the C-602.
3. My theory is that C-602 technology has been cross bred with Babur Cruise Missile, especially the Babur WS-II. Maybe even some western sub systems.
4. This enables us to bypass MTCR export restrictions and therefore it wouldn't be a surprise if Zarb's range would be close to the original C-602, which is about 400km.
5. It also means that we might be able to produce this system in quantities deemed desirable for coastal defense needs. We might even be able to export it in the long term.

What's your pov?

View attachment 468651 View attachment 468652

2. Not really, maybe the paint of the Chinese C-602 gives that impression (or perhaps its an older block), but airframe-wise the system hasn't been modified.
3. No, C-602 doesn't lacks anything which could be made better with Babur's tech.
4. There's no bypassing the MTCR restrictions as far as range is concerned. It will remain <300km.
5. Not exactly, 120 units are enough for Pakistan's coastline. Its cheaper to buy additional units than to set up an assembly/production facility.

Horus, can you give some evidence for Harba being a babar derivative? It would be duplication of effort and not make sense to have both a locally modified C-602 and an identically similar Babur

Harba = Ship-launched Babur-II with lesser range. The evidence is in the video, it doesn't have a fixed outer air-intake (like C-602). Rather it has a pop-out air-intake (exactly like Babur). Moreover it has a smaller diameter and thinner canisters as compared to C-602.

However your question is valid that why buy introduce Zarb coastal AShM when Babur-II GLCM (with radar seeker) is already coming up. The reason is that Babur-II isn't mature yet, and the confidence in the seeker tech is not that high enough. Zarb's (C-602's) seeker is relatively better.

 

[Kompromat]

Are you suggesting that there's no localised production of C-602/Zarb class happening?

Personally i do not feel that 120 rounds are enough to defend a 1000km coastline.

2. Not really, maybe the paint of the Chinese C-602 gives that impression (or perhaps its an older block), but airframe-wise the system hasn't been modified.
3. No, C-602 doesn't lacks anything which could be made better with Babur's tech.
4. There's no bypassing the MTCR restrictions as far as range is concerned. It will remain <300km.
5. Not exactly, 120 units are enough for Pakistan's coastline. Its cheaper to buy additional units than to set up an assembly/production facility.



Harba = Ship-launched Babur-II with lesser range. The evidence is in the video, it doesn't have a fixed outer air-intake (like C-602). Rather it has a pop-out air-intake (exactly like Babur). Moreover it has a smaller diameter and thinner canisters as compared to C-602.

However your question is valid that why buy introduce Zarb coastal AShM when Babur-II GLCM (with radar seeker) is already coming up. The reason is that Babur-II isn't mature yet, and the confidence in the seeker tech is not that high enough. Zarb's (C-602's) seeker is relatively better.

This should answer your earlier question.

@Armchair

 

[The Deterrent]

Are you suggesting that there's no localised production of C-602/Zarb class happening?

Personally i do not feel that 120 rounds are enough to defend a 1000km coastline.

Yes..

Well try seeing it from the perspective of the potential targets. Between C-802s (both Ship and Air-launched), Harpoons, Exocets..and now Babur-II, Harbah and Zarb...there are plenty of AShMs available to target the potential amount of Indian Navy surface vessels.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Very interesting perspective Horus.

I think the paint scheme may make it look sleeker. But its possibly exactly the same, perhaps a tad longer.

If its a NESCOM project, its just an indigenized C-602 with extended range greater than MTCR. Which is what you've suggested. Not sure about the Babur lineage though.

Could this also be the basis for the Harbah?

Not sure if China would be happy with an indeginized C-602 being exported. Nor would the Americans be happy about it either.

Harbah is a different system which has more in common with Babur series.. not 602.

Development of Harabah and other Babur variants were actually announced in the officia MODP Year book.

 

[Armchair]

2. Not really, maybe the paint of the Chinese C-602 gives that impression (or perhaps its an older block), but airframe-wise the system hasn't been modified.
3. No, C-602 doesn't lacks anything which could be made better with Babur's tech.
4. There's no bypassing the MTCR restrictions as far as range is concerned. It will remain <300km.
5. Not exactly, 120 units are enough for Pakistan's coastline. Its cheaper to buy additional units than to set up an assembly/production facility.



Harba = Ship-launched Babur-II with lesser range. The evidence is in the video, it doesn't have a fixed outer air-intake (like C-602). Rather it has a pop-out air-intake (exactly like Babur). Moreover it has a smaller diameter and thinner canisters as compared to C-602.

However your question is valid that why buy introduce Zarb coastal AShM when Babur-II GLCM (with radar seeker) is already coming up. The reason is that Babur-II isn't mature yet, and the confidence in the seeker tech is not that high enough. Zarb's (C-602's) seeker is relatively better.

It might internally still be a C-602, other than minor changes like fin shape and pop out intake.

The problem isn't solved - if the seeker isn't good enough for Zarb, why would one use an inferior seeker for Harbah?

It makes more sense IMHO (and this is my own fan speculation), that the Harbah is the next step of the intigenization of the C-602. i.e. C-602 > Zarb > Harba. But essentially, they are all the same. Just greater indigenization and tweaking / minor changes.

 

[The Deterrent]

It might internally still be a C-602, other than minor changes like fin shape and pop out intake.

The problem isn't solved - if the seeker isn't good enough for Zarb, why would one use an inferior seeker for Harbah?

It makes more sense IMHO (and this is my own fan speculation), that the Harbah is the next step of the intigenization of the C-602. i.e. C-602 > Zarb > Harba. But essentially, they are all the same. Just greater indigenization and tweaking / minor changes.

No, thats just too much unnecessary work. Babur is a perfectly good platform for an AShM, except the seeker.

Its not that its inferior, most probably its an indigenous one. Having access to Zarb's seeker doesn't means that China transferred ToT for the seeker.

Zarb = C-602. Harba, based on Babur, has totally different origins. Essentially their job is the same, but internally they are very different. Its like comparing Tomahawk with C-602.

 

[Armchair]

No, thats just too much unnecessary work. Babur is a perfectly good platform for an AShM, except the seeker.

Its not that its inferior, most probably its an indigenous one. Having access to Zarb's seeker doesn't means that China transferred ToT for the seeker.

Zarb = C-602. Harba, based on Babur, has totally different origins. Essentially their job is the same, but internally they are very different. Its like comparing Tomahawk with C-602.

hi Detterent, except what you are saying is a fan theory and not based on evidence. The Babur has completely different dimensions to the Harba, it can't be a version of it. But I agree with you that its a more indigenized version of the C-602. To what extent, we don't really know. Zarb is half way between C-602 and Harba

Personally I think Zarb is a bit of a waste as the C-602 is ranged around 300 km. Any Indian ship that gets to that range can already to tremendous damage from those ranges. So not sure what the purpose is. Maybe to keep Indian Marine ships from making a landing.

 

[The Deterrent]

hi Detterent, except what you are saying is a fan theory and not based on evidence. The Babur has completely different dimensions to the Harba, it can't be a version of it. But I agree with you that its a more indigenized version of the C-602. To what extent, we don't really know. Zarb is half way between C-602 and Harba

Personally I think Zarb is a bit of a waste as the C-602 is ranged around 300 km. Any Indian ship that gets to that range can already to tremendous damage from those ranges. So not sure what the purpose is. Maybe to keep Indian Marine ships from making a landing.

Nope, I don't make up fan theories. However of course you're free to believe whatever makes more sense to you.