Settle Kashmir and Get the Reward!!!

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

UN is a FAILURE! Look how many Resolutions Israels Ignored! Look How USA Invaded Iraq! Where was the UN? UN should be dissolved!

The leave the organization - until you do not, you are obligated by the UN charter to implement her resolutions.

The Israelis have ignored UNSC resolutions, and they have been condemned for it and should be condemned for it. They have big brother US backing them up, otherwise they too should have been forced by the international community to withdraw to the 1967 borders.

Unfortunately India has taken the same route as Israel, and chosen to deliberately and blatantly violate her obligations as a UN member, obligations and commitments she agreed to. In both cases it is a sign of an extremely irresponsible nation.

How is Pakistan, or any country, supposed to honor any agreement India makes, when, according to IPF's logic, India should unilaterally reject any agreement or binding contract at any time if she thinks the deal is no longer in her favor. Thugs and criminals operate like that, not responsible nations.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I want to get some clarification, hopefully from a Pakistani. My question is the land ceded to China...was that a "gift" or Pakistan returned it to the Chinese because that part was historically Chinese territory? or another reason.

The reason I ask this is because I was told two versions. One was "gift" the other was "return".

The answer can be had from the treaty. China woudl have to open negotiations on the final status of that land after the Kashmir dispute was resolved.

Article 6
The two parties have agreed that after the settlement of the Kashmir dispute between Pakistan
and India, the sovereign authority concerned will reopen negotiations with the Government of the
People’s Republic of China on the boundary as described in Article. Two of the present
agreement, so as to sign a formal boundary treaty to replace the present agreement, provided
that in the event of the sovereign authority being Pakistan, the provisions of the present
agreement and of the aforesaid protocol shall be maintained in the formal boundary treaty to be
signed between the People’s Republic of China and Pakistan.

 

[dabong1]

Whats makes me laugh is the pakistanis thinking that by closing the training camps and closing down the kashmir freedom fighters offices,that india was going to come to some sort of compromise on kashmir.
Pakistan thought the UN route would sort the issue out but decades went by and the indians kept stalling or making excuses.
The freedom struggle started and india wanted the pakistanis to stop "cross border terrorism" and only then could india talk about kashmir.
We pakistanis need to understand that the indians will not give 1 inch of kashmir or reach some sort of equal fair deal.
I think we either accept defeat on the issue and get on with life or we arm and support the freedom fighters.
It must be pure genuis on pakistans side to have got a bus out of the "kashmir peace process" while the indians have had the whole freedom movement infrastructure put on hold or partially dismantled.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I agree but then I am asking you what is the penalty we are supposed to pay for our delayed wisdom.

Does it matter what you think or Pakistan Governemnt thinks?

Agreements and commitments stand for something - your logic at this point is that India should unilaterally reject any agreement or commitment at any time if it thinks that doing so is in its favor. Why should any country trust India's word or her commitments to honor her agreements then, since you will back out and run whenever you feel like it?

This is not what the GoP or I think, it is an established principle of doing business and dealing with each other, people, businesses or nations. Entities must honor their agreements or the law of the jungle takes hold.

Did I say otherwise, but then it is coming from Pakistan who conveniently recognised Taliban governmnt which incidentally was not recognised by the UN. The point is the penalty you needed to pay was less .

Where in the UN charter are restrictions placed on which governments should be recognized?

Who said the geographical land mass called Kashmir was the destiny of Kashmiris themselves.

Any territory is the destiny of the people who inhabit it, otherwise the struggle against the British in the subcontinent was pointless as well.

Somrthing that was done under the influence and pressure of the British.

No - it was a completely moral and valid decision to allow the people of any disputed state to choose their final status. The choice of the people is after all what led to the struggle for independence from the British - to argue against that very principle in the case of the Kashmiris would have been hypocritical, and India and Pakistan agreed to it.

If you think it was under duress, then take it to the ICJ and prove your case and nullify the agreement on partition, until then it stands.

 

[dabong1]

The only way forward in kashmir is the freedom struggle........a kashmiri version of Hezbollah-Hamas is what is needed.
A true jihad in kashmir will pull people away from the pakistan "taliban" and into the ranks of a kashmir Hezbollah.
If we are going to negotiate anything on kashmir it has to be at the point of a sword.

Have any of the compromises pakistan made during musharaff rule strengthened our postion in kashmir or yeilded any postive results in regard to setting kashmir free?
We set about stopping kashmiri freedom fighters from crosssing the LoC while the indians went full thrust ahead with building new bunkers,fences ect along the LoC.

We can quote all UN resolutions we want but the only way we are going to get kashmir is by supporting the freedon movement.
If we are not going to follow the path of jihad in kashmir then why cant we just accept that we have lost kashmir and get on with merging AJK into the federation.

 

[Vinod2070]

Have any of the compromises pakistan made during musharaff rule strengthened our postion in kashmir or yeilded any postive results in regard to setting kashmir free?
We set about stopping kashmiri freedom fighters from crosssing the LoC while the indians went full thrust ahead with building new bunkers,fences ect along the LoC.

Did the terror for the previous decades bring any positive result?

Don't you think any such move will not result in retribution and may be the declaration of Pakistan as a state supporter of terror with disastrous consequences?

Do you even care about that!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Did the terror for the previous decades bring any positive result?

Don't you think any such move will not result in retribution and may be the declaration of Pakistan as a state supporter of terror with disastrous consequences?

Do you even care about that!

Not that I am advocating it, but that would depend upon which groups Pakistan was supporting. Some Kashmiri groups were declared terrorist organizations because of high profile attacks on Western civilians. There are other Kashmiri groups fighting occupation that have not been declared terrorist organizations because they have not targeted civilians.

I would not advocate active support, but at the same time I would not dismantle any of the groups that have not been black listed like the JuD and LeT have.

 

[rajk20002002]

Not that I am advocating it, but that would depend upon which groups Pakistan was supporting. Some Kashmiri groups were declared terrorist organizations because of high profile attacks on Western civilians. There are other Kashmiri groups fighting occupation that have not been declared terrorist organizations because they have not targeted civilians.

I would not advocate active support, but at the same time I would not dismantle any of the groups that have not been black listed like the JuD and LeT have.

Human brain is very fertile. Mind of a mob works very differently than the minds of individuals. My personal conviction is that ,leave aside any miracle, Pakistan and India will keep fighting for generations to come. Neither country is going to give up her stated position. If at all there is a solution, only one I can think of;

Make borders irrelevent so that people can travel, trade and do any lawful activity on either side. I am extremely doubtful that by force or through Jihad, Pakistan can capture Kashmir. However, there are vested interests and solving this issue does is not in their interest. Keeping Kashmir on boil is a big time industry now and many people are living on this. Think of them if Kashmir issue is solved.. They will be all displaced...LOL

RK

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Human brain is very fertile. Mind of a mob works very differently than the minds of individuals. My personal conviction is that ,leave aside any miracle, Pakistan and India will keep fighting for generations to come. Neither country is going to give up her stated position. If at all there is a solution, only one I can think of;

Make borders irrelevent so that people can travel, trade and do any lawful activity on either side. I am extremely doubtful that by force or through Jihad, Pakistan can capture Kashmir. However, there are vested interests and solving this issue does is not in their interest. Keeping Kashmir on boil is a big time industry now and many people are living on this. Think of them if Kashmir issue is solved.. They will be all displaced...LOL

RK

I do not think Pakistan ever expected the insurgency to 'win Kashmir'. The whole point of the insurgency was to have a bargaining chip to get India to the negotiations table, since she chose to unilaterally walk away from her obligations under the UN and refused to settle the dispute.

In fact, my opinion is that India's lack of cooperation and wild demands from Pakistan, some of which have little to do with the Mumbai attacks, are designed to get Pakistan to act against the entire Kashmiri movement, instead of just the LeT and JuD.

Think about it, Pakistan has raided and shut down the camps and assets of bth organizations, and arrested the senior leadership, along with dozens of other members, including almost all of the LeT/JuD suspects in the Mumbai attacks, yet India says that Pakistan is not doing enough against the 'infrastructure of terrorists'.

So what infrastructure is India talking about, when the infrastructure of the JuD/LeT has been seized? It is of course the rest of the Freedom fighters, whose who haven't been labeled 'terrorist' by the UN, that India wants taken down.

The solution is easy, it was agreed to by both sides, it is to allow the people of Kashmir to choose in a plebiscite their destiny. All it requires from India is respect for her obligations and international commitments. Is she a mature and responsible nation, or just another thug drunk on power, and bent upon usurping whatever she can by hook or crook. So far the evidence points to the latter.

 

[roopesh]

So what infrastructure is India talking about, when the infrastructure of the JuD/LeT has been seized? It is of course the rest of the Freedom fighters, whose who haven't been labeled 'terrorist' by the UN, that India wants taken down..

Indian target "audience" in this case is ppl fight against indian govt who get trained on pakistan soil. If LET may be pakistani or not is not important and GOP cant do anything. But If he gets tranined about terror activities inside pakistan its not good and GOP should take action. Thats all India demanding.

And about freedom fighters who are they? Why they are crossing borders everyday? Are they kashmiris? Dont give reason that they are coming to protect muslims? So much going on gaza not even single person firing against them.

The solution is easy, it was agreed to by both sides, it is to allow the people of Kashmir to choose in a plebiscite their destiny.

What do you mean by people of kashmir? Thousands of hindu families vacated kashmir. Today we can count kashmir pandits in theat region. The real kashmir ppl wont live there. If pakistan wants the ppl let them announce citizenship. We welcome that. But not even a inch of kashmir land goes to otherside. All pakistan fav ppl are more than wecome to relocate.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

And about freedom fighters who are they? Why they are crossing borders everyday? Are they kashmiris? Dont give reason that they are coming to protect muslims? So much going on gaza not even single person firing against them.

They are Kashmiris and those who support the Kashmiris right to self determination, as guaranteed to them by the UNSC resolutions and agreed to by India.

What do you mean by people of kashmir? Thousands of hindu families vacated kashmir. Today we can count kashmir pandits in theat region. The real kashmir ppl wont live there. If pakistan wants the ppl let them announce citizenship. We welcome that. But not even a inch of kashmir land goes to otherside. All pakistan fav ppl are more than wecome to relocate.

Certainly repatriate them back to Kahsmir, or with the assistance of the UN take the referendum ballots to the families in India and have them fill them out. Census numbers on how many Hindu pandits lived in teh valley and how many left the valley exist. Let me know if you think that makes a difference with respect to the overall population, which remains heavily Muslim.

Your nation, as already pointed out, has made an international commitment under both the instrument of partition and the UNSC resolutions. Those commitments require a plebiscite. As a member of the UN you have to implement your commitments, otherwise India is just a thief and thug nation.

 

[rajk20002002]

I do not think Pakistan ever expected the insurgency to 'win Kashmir'. The whole point of the insurgency was to have a bargaining chip to get India to the negotiations table, since she chose to unilaterally walk away from her obligations under the UN and refused to settle the dispute.

In fact, my opinion is that India's lack of cooperation and wild demands from Pakistan, some of which have little to do with the Mumbai attacks, are designed to get Pakistan to act against the entire Kashmiri movement, instead of just the LeT and JuD.

Think about it, Pakistan has raided and shut down the camps and assets of bth organizations, and arrested the senior leadership, along with dozens of other members, including almost all of the LeT/JuD suspects in the Mumbai attacks, yet India says that Pakistan is not doing enough against the 'infrastructure of terrorists'.

So what infrastructure is India talking about, when the infrastructure of the JuD/LeT has been seized? It is of course the rest of the Freedom fighters, whose who haven't been labeled 'terrorist' by the UN, that India wants taken down.

The solution is easy, it was agreed to by both sides, it is to allow the people of Kashmir to choose in a plebiscite their destiny. All it requires from India is respect for her obligations and international commitments. Is she a mature and responsible nation, or just another thug drunk on power, and bent upon usurping whatever she can by hook or crook. So far the evidence points to the latter.

I quite agree with you. Truth mai be somewhere in between. We may not be as correct as we are made to think and vice verse. I know for sure that governments can not control everything anywhere. At best they can monitor. Right in the centre of India, where there is no international border, there are decoits of Chambal. They have been operating there for 100s of years. There are bollywood movies on many of them. In fact many of them play very active roles in Indian politics. Whole issue is of perception and mental resolve. Till there are people on either side who feel in a particular way, there is very little governments can do. I can understand Pakistani emotions on Kashmir. Only way of solving any conflict is give and take so that people don't feel let down on either side. If people on either side feel let down, any agreement will become nul and void. This is why I say that we have to come with a solution which is acceptable to all sides. India will never leave Kashmir, irrespective of any logic from other side and vice verse. This where the leadership come into picture, Between them they have to agree, what they can sell to trheir respective sides. Once they agree, they have to bring their people on board. Once people buy the logic, only then one can say that there is durable solution.

RK

 

[rahgup]

My solution:

 

[roopesh]

They are Kashmiris and those who support the Kashmiris right to self determination, as guaranteed to them by the UNSC resolutions and agreed to by India..

I will end by debate(after this post) on this for two reasons..One is ur super mod ...(dont mess around guy) and second kashmir is ever hot...

Why pakistan allowing these ppl to cross border at first place? U mean pakistan support these ppl to cross border and fight against indian troop?

Your nation, as already pointed out, has made an international commitment under both the instrument of partition and the UNSC resolutions. Those commitments require a plebiscite. As a member of the UN you have to implement your commitments, otherwise India is just a thief and thug nation.

First comes national interst sir. UN is not something going justice to every country. See whats happening in Gaza. Today the &**(&*( UN president issued one statement and kept quite. All other muslim leaders are sitting happily at home. Iran ship has been stopped to provide basic things for victims..UN not even bothers to send the NGO group with all first aids. Did u watch those videos and photos...my god...i never wish even to visit that place...UN is just one fu^%ing place.

 

[TOPGUN]

My solution:

Ain't happening your solution which this map is drawn all so wrong lol hence funny to see most of the kashmir u still taking to India WONT HAPPEN !!