Saudi Sex Scandal Simmers

[TankMan]

What I don't think you grasp is that your ruling class uses its Western education not to liberate Pakistanis from old thinking and fears but to exacerbate them and cement their rule further, or enrich themselves for personal benefit. Zia was a product of British schools. Jinnah and Z.A.B. fostered terrorism against civilians. B. Bhutto's husband was "Mr. Ten Percent" and Harvard-educated B.B. herself exaggerated her accomplishments - though I can't blame her for all her failings as her degrading experience in desert prison left its mark on her mind.

My point is that you can't take it all on blind faith. If you don't work to shape the future yourself you yield the shaping to others who will do it for you - and to you, as Pakistanis lack effective enforcement of their civil rights, right?

This move appears to be in line with the Saudi mentality. If you've read much about the Saudis you'll discover it's a conservative and very xenophobic society, despite hosting millions of hajjis every year. In one book ("Oil Sheiks") I read the author cited the example of a family that a hundred years ago moved to Kuwait for a generation before returning to Arabia. Other Saudis unfailingly referred to the clan as "foreigners".

What I don't think you grasp is that your ruling class uses its Western education not to liberate Pakistanis from old thinking and fears but to exacerbate them and cement their rule further, or enrich themselves for personal benefit.

What you don't get is that now there's a huge amount of students who don't come from the families of Nawaz Sharif or Zardari.
There are plenty of students from the upper-middle class who have the potential to become rulers of the country, things like Social Media and technology has had a massive effect, there are so many factors.

Yes, there will always be politicians trying to "cement their rule", but the their rule is coming to an end. Just look at PTI as an example. It is supported mostly by the youth, students who want change, an honest leader and a better future. PTI may not be the best party for this task but the fact that so many people are adopting a different, more modern mindset is what gives me hope. I have been to events, I have talked to activists, I know what i'm talking about. People want a better future, especially the newer generation. Social media, the internet, TV, these things have had a massive effect on Pakistanis. They now have information available, its education that will help them understand it.
Slowly but surely, the era of patwaris and people like Nawaz Sharif and Zardari is coming to an end.

I think I grasp more about the society in which I grew up than you do.

Jinnah and Z.A.B. fostered terrorism against civilians.

What is that supposed to mean? Its not as simple as what this one sentence makes it look like, this debate will need a thread of its own.

B. Bhutto's husband was "Mr. Ten Percent" and Harvard-educated B.B. herself exaggerated her accomplishments.

Yes, people are getting sick of these mainstream politicians now. The reason they could rule before is because people were very, very uninformed. In a couple of decades, someone like Zardari wouldn't stand a chance in politics.

My point is that you can't take it all on blind faith. If you don't work to shape the future yourself you yield the shaping to others who will do it for you - and to you, as Pakistanis lack effective enforcement of their civil rights, right?

I'm not taking anything on faith. I plan on doing a lot for my country, trust me. In my previous post, I even mentioned this:

I myself plan on returning to my country and working to improve it.

because I knew this is exactly what you would say.

As for the Saudi mentality, i admit that they're very conservative but they have their own social issues and reasons behind their "xenophobia". I'm not going to defend or attack their behaviour because I haven't been to Saudia and don't know their mentality or thinking but my opinion is that they shouldn't be so racist and should show tolerance and modesty, as per the teachings of Islam.

 

[Solomon2]

What you are saying would definitely apply to the likes of Zardari or Nawaz Sharif's families but not to the people I am talking about. What you don't get is that now there's a huge amount of students who don't come from the families of Nawaz Sharif or Zardari. There are plenty of students from the upper-middle class who have the potential to become rulers of the country -

I'm more pessimistic, for I met Pakistani college kids like that in the 1980s (minus the social media, of course). When they went home they either became part of the system of repression or soon returned to the U.S. as graduate and medical students, and eventually U.S. or Bangladeshi citizenship. They did not want to apply their potential to deal with Pakistan's problems but solely to enrich themselves.

Yes, there will always be politicians trying to "cement their rule", but the their rule is coming to an end. Just look at PTI as an example.

Imo Pakistan needs more Imran Khans in democratic competition with one another, not personality politics. It will be a big step forward in elevating democratic values above feudal and anti-democratic ones.

Social media, the internet, TV, these things have had a massive effect on Pakistanis. They now have information available, its education that will help them understand it.

You may be right! On the other hand, the Iranian mullahs staged their revolution with cassette tapes and radio broadcasts. The Iranian people weren't alert enough to what was happening and became subjects of a regime far more oppressive than the shah's.

Slowly but surely, the era of patwaris and people like Nawaz Sharif and Zardari is coming to an end.

To be replaced by....?

I think I grasp more about the society in which I grew up than you do.

I've heard this before, several times. I told the Egyptian democrats they needed to foster democratic values as well as kicking Mubarak out. They didn't listen and see what happened.

What is that supposed to mean? Its not as simple as what this one sentence makes it look like, this debate will need a thread of its own.

Yes. This gets back to the fibs you were taught as history in school. It will need a separate thread.

The reason they could rule before is because people were very, very uninformed.

A person like Zia wouldn't have been stopped from taking over regardless of people's information level; a person like Zia could only have been stopped by street power - as seen today - or an officer corps wholly dedicated to democratic ideals, which Pakistan isn't yet ready for, as the civilians in power don't yet measure up to following and promoting them.

Yes, people are getting sick of these mainstream politicians now. The reason they could rule before is because people were very, very uninformed. In a couple of decades, someone like Zardari wouldn't stand a chance in politics.

Jinnah was a devious trickster. Z.A.B. was a socialist dictator. Nawaz was originally set up by the military itself to oppose the Bhuttos. When Pakistanis can be taught and debate such things in their schools that generation will be better prepared to elect new leaders than any generation since, imo.

I'm not taking anything on faith. I plan on doing a lot for my country, trust me.

It may be unfair to you, but an American like me has learned never to trust a Pakistani who says, "trust me." It's not your fault, it's the fault of the water you have to swim in, infested with sharks professing to be dolphins.

 

[TankMan]

I'm more pessimistic, for I met Pakistani college kids like that in the 1980s (minus the social media, of course). When they went home they either became part of the system of repression or soon returned to the U.S. as graduate and medical students, and eventually U.S. or Bangladeshi citizenship. They did not want to apply their potential to deal with Pakistan's problems but solely to enrich themselves.

Imo Pakistan needs more Imran Khans in democratic competition with one another, not personality politics. It will be a big step forward in elevating democratic values above feudal and anti-democratic ones.

You may be right! On the other hand, the Iranian mullahs staged their revolution with cassette tapes and radio broadcasts. The Iranian people weren't alert enough to what was happening and became subjects of a regime far more oppressive than the shah's.

To be replaced by....?

I've heard this before, several times. I told the Egyptian democrats they needed to foster democratic values as well as kicking Mubarak out. They didn't listen and see what happened.

Yes. This gets back to the fibs you were taught as history in school. It will need a separate thread.

A person like Zia wouldn't have been stopped from taking over regardless of people's information level; a person like Zia could only have been stopped by street power - as seen today - or an officer corps wholly dedicated to democratic ideals, which Pakistan isn't yet ready for, as the civilians in power don't yet measure up to following and promoting them.

Jinnah was a devious trickster. Z.A.B. was a socialist dictator. Nawaz was originally set up by the military itself to oppose the Bhuttos. When Pakistanis can be taught and debate such things in their schools that generation will be better prepared to elect new leaders than any generation since, imo.

It may be unfair to you, but an American like me has learned never to trust a Pakistani who says, "trust me." It's not your fault, it's the fault of the water you have to swim in, infested with sharks professing to be dolphins.

I'm more pessimistic, for I met Pakistani college kids like that in the 1980s (minus the social media, of course). When they went home they either became part of the system of repression or soon returned to the U.S. as graduate and medical students, and eventually U.S. or Bangladeshi citizenship. They did not want to apply their potential to deal with Pakistan's problems but solely to enrich themselves.

What do you mean by "became part of the system of repression"? Do you mean to say that they joined corruption politics or that they didn't do anything against the corruption?
Do you seriously expect me to believe that Pakistanis applied for Bangladeshi citizenship? Yes, I agree and know that there are many Pakistanis who would rather move to a more developed country than live in Pakistan and help improve it. That's one of the things that need to change.
Pessimism is useless, it's one of the things you learn living in Pakistan. When there's no electricity for 18 hours a day and you get typhoid fever, there's no choice but to be optimistic. I'm not extremely optimistic, but It helps morale, it helps one achieve his goals. How do you expect people to change Pakistan when they think they can't do it? Imran Khan told his story of making Shaukat Khanum. Everyone told him it was impossible to make a cancer hospital which gives free treatment to the poor, he didn't listen to them. He succeeded.

Imo Pakistan needs more Imran Khans in democratic competition with one another, not personality politics. It will be a big step forward in elevating democratic values above feudal and anti-democratic ones.

I agree. We got one Imran Khan, I'm confident we'll see more like him in the future.

You may be right! On the other hand, the Iranian mullahs staged their revolution with cassette tapes and radio broadcasts. The Iranian people weren't alert enough to what was happening and became subjects of a regime far more oppressive than the shah's

There you go, my point about lack of information. Nowadays there's propaganda like Geo spreading around but many, many alternatives are available for people who are open-minded enough to listen to someone else.

To be replaced by....?

A modern democratic system.

I've heard this before, several times. I told the Egyptian democrats they needed to foster democratic values as well as kicking Mubarak out. They didn't listen and see what happened.

Did you tell someone who actually had the power to influence anything or did you just preach on some online forum? Egypt's situation was different and worse, not to mention the proxy-politics by foreign countries.

Yes. This gets back to the fibs you were taught as history in school. It will need a separate thread.

The "fibs" i was taught in school don't make any difference to this debate right now. Even if what you are saying is true and Jinnah was a total terrorist (very unlikely), as long as the people believe in good values and ideals, it won't make a difference.

A person like Zia wouldn't have been stopped from taking over regardless of people's information level; a person like Zia could only have been stopped by street power - as seen today - or an officer corps wholly dedicated to democratic ideals, which Pakistan isn't yet ready for, as the civilians in power don't yet measure up to following and promoting them.

People can only unite as street power if they are aware of whats really going on.

Jinnah was a devious trickster. Z.A.B. was a socialist dictator. Nawaz was originally set up by the military itself to oppose the Bhuttos. When Pakistanis can be taught and debate such things in their schools that generation will be better prepared to elect new leaders than any generation since, imo.

Stop being so Anti-Jinnah. Do you really think that telling Pakistanis that their country was built by a "devious trickster" (which it was not) would help anybody?
Pakistanis can debate all these things in schools, atleast the better schools such as the ones I studied in. That's one of the things which makes me say what I'm saying now. That there is hope.

But since you don't like any of Pakistan's leaders, let me ask you what do you think a good leader would be like? One who licks America's shoes and abolishes the Pakistan military?

It may be unfair to you, but an American like me has learned never to trust a Pakistani who says, "trust me." It's not your fault, it's the fault of the water you have to swim in, infested with sharks professing to be dolphins

It may be unfair to you, but a Pakistani like me has learned never to trust an American who says he knows better. It's not your fault, its the fault of the water you have to swim in, infested with disinformation,propaganda and hatred professing to be the truth.

I may not be able to achieve my aims and dreams of building a better Pakistan, but they atleast mean something. Maybe they inspire someone to carry on. In the same way that Imran Khan has inspired hundreds of thousands to rise up against the mainstream lying politicians.

 

[Solomon2]

What do you mean by "became part of the system of repression"? Do you mean to say that they joined corruption politics or that they didn't do anything against the corruption?

I think so. He was a mean pre-med student who abused people and animals. He stayed in Pakistan. If you're beating up animals and got through chem lab by spiking other students' unknowns you've got corrupted morals and thus he strikes me as an unlikely candidate for reforming corruption at home.

Do you seriously expect me to believe that Pakistanis applied for Bangladeshi citizenship?

How could you not, since Bangladeshis were first Pakistanis? Entire novels could be written about the experiences of families whose fathers swore allegiance to the Pakistani state yet made the agonizing decision to betray their oaths and serve a new country instead.

Yes, I agree and know that there are many Pakistanis who would rather move to a more developed country than live in Pakistan and help improve it. That's one of the things that need to change.

One radiologist - very, very skilled - told me that the reason he left Pakistan was because it couldn't provide him with the advanced medical facilities that he needed to do his job.

Pessimism is useless, it's one of the things you learn living in Pakistan. When there's no electricity for 18 hours a day and you get typhoid fever, there's no choice but to be optimistic.

I find your perspective new and refreshing. It's constructive.

How do you expect people to change Pakistan when they think they can't do it?

I wouldn't be here if I didn't think there was hope.

Imran Khan told his story of making Shaukat Khanum. Everyone told him it was impossible to make a cancer hospital which gives free treatment to the poor, he didn't listen to them. He succeeded.

IK didn't build his hospital by giving up and blaming Zionists or Saudis or Martians for failure, did he? He persevered and succeeded. In the U.S. we often tell our kids to look to athletes to see the rewards of such perseverance.

Did you tell someone who actually had the power to influence anything or did you just preach on some online forum?

I stood with Egyptians at a pro-democracy demonstration in 2007 in D.C. Some of them became leaders in Egypt's Arab Spring.

The "fibs" i was taught in school don't make any difference to this debate right now. Even if what you are saying is true and Jinnah was a total terrorist (very unlikely), as long as the people believe in good values and ideals, it won't make a difference.

There's Imran Khan and then there's Ahmed Shehzad,

People can only unite as street power if they are aware of whats really going on.

Oh, my, you're green at this, aren't you?

Stop being so Anti-Jinnah. Do you really think that telling Pakistanis that their country was built by a "devious trickster" (which it was not) would help anybody?

Yes, sir.

But since you don't like any of Pakistan's leaders, let me ask you what do you think a good leader would be like? One who licks America's shoes and abolishes the Pakistan military?

We are not the British! The one Pakistan policy I'm convinced Obama got right is refusing to express any kind of preference regarding Pakistan's top military commander. Wikileaks showed that Nawaz Sharif labored under the conviction America appointed such people, not Pakistan's own civilian leadership.

It may be unfair to you, but a Pakistani like me has learned never to trust an American who says he knows better. It's not your fault, its the fault of the water you have to swim in, infested with disinformation,propaganda and hatred professing to be the truth.

I can't say "touché" because I know the situations aren't mirror images of one another.

I may not be able to achieve my aims and dreams of building a better Pakistan, but they at least mean something. Maybe they inspire someone to carry on. In the same way that Imran Khan has inspired hundreds of thousands to rise up against the mainstream lying politicians.

Great. But I again caution you: don't put your all into one person. Princes are no substitute for principle.