Russian's view on F-22 Farnborough Flight Demo

[nitesh]

T-50 is just not designed for carriers use... and as for RuAF naval role fighters, Su-33 and Su-34 will be upgraded with stealth features..

SU33 and 34 are more of bombers, not multirole aircrafts (my view). May be they will start working on a new design for naval role.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Theoretically, yes. Practically the stealth fighters would only be with a few restricted nations and chances of war between them are remote.

ahhh.. not ture... in pak/sino-indo context the possibility exists, TuAF has placed order for F-35 and its most likely if Greece EF-2000 or Rafale deal does not go through they may also consider T-50, and my bet is Taiwan may also acquire 5th generation fighters like F-22 or F-35..

 

[Myth_buster_1]

SU33 and 34 are more of bombers, not multirole aircrafts (my view). May be they will start working on a new design for naval role.

both are capable MRCA like FA-18 super hornets or even F-35... though Su-34 is specifically tasked for anti-naval warfare roles but Su-33 shares alot of similarities between Su-30 mki and Su-35...

 

[nitesh]

both are capable MRCA like FA-18 super hornets or even F-35... though Su-34 is specifically tasked for anti-naval warfare roles but Su-33 shares alot of similarities between Su-30 mki and Su-35...

But both misses a crucial feature "stealth", but most of the navies/air forces will be operating 4 and 4++ generation fighters for a long time except US, so these planes can be used.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

But both misses a crucial feature "stealth", but most of the navies/air forces will be operating 4 and 4++ generation fighters for a long time except US, so these planes can be used.

Dude Su-34 and Su-33 are defiantly 4++ generation Naval MRCA with stealth ram coating features..!!

 

[nitesh]

Dude Su-34 and Su-33 are defiantly 4++ generation Naval MRCA with stealth ram coating features..!!

I really have no idea about this coating, can you please help regarding this with some article. Any way let's see what is in future.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

I really have no idea about this coating, can you please help regarding this with some article. Any way let's see what is in future.

Su-34
Lately decreasing of radar, thermal and visual signature of a/c became a major element of guarantying their survival (Stealth technology). Obviously, everything that has to do with the measures of decreasing of a/c visibility rakes an extreme secrecy within Russia as well as abroad (it is enough to remember what kind of secrecy the Americans wrapped their works on their stealth's - F117A and B-2 into) but even cursory look at the Su-34 gives an opportunity to make a conclusion that this plane has a smaller Radar Cross Section compared to the other craft in its class. Clearly visible integral arrangement of the airframe (the family feature of the all Su-27 family a/c) is combined with radically changed flatten nose section, resembling the American B-2 bomber's nose. The large "beak" of the radar sight is absent (the radar antenna and the air intakes are responsible for the size of the Radar Cross Section of a combat plane in the fore hemisphere). All this plus radioabsorbing covering and materials can make the Su-34 much less visible on a radar screen than such a/c as Su-24, F-111 and F-15E (according to the bureau representative at low altitude Su-34 will have the same radar visibility as modern cruise missiles, and as we know this class of weapons have Radar Cross Section less than 1 square meter)

 

[nitesh]

Su-34
Lately decreasing of radar, thermal and visual signature of a/c became a major element of guarantying their survival (Stealth technology). Obviously, everything that has to do with the measures of decreasing of a/c visibility rakes an extreme secrecy within Russia as well as abroad (it is enough to remember what kind of secrecy the Americans wrapped their works on their stealth's - F117A and B-2 into) but even cursory look at the Su-34 gives an opportunity to make a conclusion that this plane has a smaller Radar Cross Section compared to the other craft in its class. Clearly visible integral arrangement of the airframe (the family feature of the all Su-27 family a/c) is combined with radically changed flatten nose section, resembling the American B-2 bomber's nose. The large "beak" of the radar sight is absent (the radar antenna and the air intakes are responsible for the size of the Radar Cross Section of a combat plane in the fore hemisphere). All this plus radioabsorbing covering and materials can make the Su-34 much less visible on a radar screen than such a/c as Su-24, F-111 and F-15E (according to the bureau representative at low altitude Su-34 will have the same radar visibility as modern cruise missiles, and as we know this class of weapons have Radar Cross Section less than 1 square meter)

These coating will make SU series "low observability" feature rather making them stealth as 5th gen fighters

 

[x_man]

Are all these "stunts" still important in this age of AWACS and BVR missiles!

In the current situation, there are not likely to be any close run dog-fights. Most kills will happen without the pilots even seeing the other plane.

Do all these maneuvers really matter in today's world except making a nice display at the air-expo?

During Vietnam war, guess what US did with F-4 Phantom..?? They took the gun out of it and the poor F-4 jocks suffered so many kills against Nam fighters…you are in trouble when you have no gun, and you're missiles don't work!!! Ever since then, no fighter designer ever dared to design a fighter without a gun…SU-30 MKI, F-22 Raptor and even F-35 all carry guns….just in case they end up in close combat..

Although personally I would regard a close combat fight on a 5th generation fighter as bad piloting technique because one should never let a situation arise where you end up in a close fight but in the fog of war, anything can happen …And once in close aircombat, then the same old throttle-stick techniques kick in and it could be anybody’s ball game….imagine a $ 1 million F-7 shooting down a $300 million Raptor in close combat with a gun…. Oouch…that will hurt some bosses a lot…

 

[Vinod2070]

During Vietnam war, guess what US did with F-4 Phantom..?? They took the gun out of it and the poor F-4 jocks suffered so many kills against Nam fighters…you are in trouble when you have no gun, and you're missiles don't work!!! Ever since then, no fighter designer ever dared to design a fighter without a gun…SU-30 MKI, F-22 Raptor and even F-35 all carry guns….just in case they end up in close combat..

Although personally I would regard a close combat fight on a 5th generation fighter as bad piloting technique because one should never let a situation arise where you end up in a close fight but in the fog of war, anything can happen …And once in close aircombat, then the same old throttle-stick techniques kick in and it could be anybody’s ball game….imagine a $ 1 million F-7 shooting down a $300 million Raptor in close combat with a gun…. Oouch…that will hurt some bosses a lot…

Well, I understand that you can't have a plane without a gun, just in case.

But at least with a reasonably good air forces with AWACS support the chances of actually using them should be really remote.

I guess a lot of water has flown through the river since the Vietnam war. So the situation is totally different. How many Iraqi fighters did the USA pilots gun down during the desert storm? most were taken out from 40 KM or more.

Now with the ever increasing missile ranges, it would be a rare 5th gen fighter pilot, who will use a gun in a dog fight. And it will reflect something going grossly wrong.

My point was that the maneuverability of the planes is not really a big criteria now. There are other far more crucial factors while evaluating them.

 

[nitesh]

During Vietnam war, guess what US did with F-4 Phantom..?? They took the gun out of it and the poor F-4 jocks suffered so many kills against Nam fighters…you are in trouble when you have no gun, and you're missiles don't work!!! Ever since then, no fighter designer ever dared to design a fighter without a gun…SU-30 MKI, F-22 Raptor and even F-35 all carry guns….just in case they end up in close combat..

Although personally I would regard a close combat fight on a 5th generation fighter as bad piloting technique because one should never let a situation arise where you end up in a close fight but in the fog of war, anything can happen …And once in close aircombat, then the same old throttle-stick techniques kick in and it could be anybody’s ball game….imagine a $ 1 million F-7 shooting down a $300 million Raptor in close combat with a gun…. Oouch…that will hurt some bosses a lot…

300 million$ for a raptor, isn't it too much, I heard it is around 150 million $ but still it is too costly to be lost

 

[x_man]

Well, I understand that you can't have a plane without a gun, just in case.

But at least with a reasonably good air forces with AWACS support the chances of actually using them should be really remote.

I guess a lot of water has flown through the river since the Vietnam war. So the situation is totally different. How many Iraqi fighters did the USA pilots gun down during the desert storm? most were taken out from 40 KM or more.

Now with the ever increasing missile ranges, it would be a rare 5th gen fighter pilot, who will use a gun in a dog fight. And it will reflect something going grossly wrong.

My point was that the maneuverability of the planes is not really a big criteria now. There are other far more crucial factors while evaluating them.

Yeh I do agree with you, any 5th gen aircraft getting into close combat, pilot should get a boot on his butt…

Iraqi AF was a disappointment…it was the sixth largest AF (by 1990) and the way they fought was simply shameful….many fighters were dug in the mud and majority ran away to Iran anyway….what were they thinking….?? Correct me if I am wrong, but they did mange to shoot an F-18 by Mig-25….probably their only air-air kill…...Allied force destroyed most of the Iraqi airfields and had the complete Air Supremacy with days of air operations…

No matter how strong or a powerful radar an aircraft gets and how many BVRs it employs, a fighter aircraft will always be judged by its manoeuvrability and it will remain a key selling point….Agility is something that is a trademark for a fighter plane and nobody will buy a fighter aircraft that has a max G limits of +3, -1 or behaves like an elephant in the vertical plane……

 

[Myth_buster_1]

But at least with a reasonably good air forces with AWACS support the chances of actually using them should be really remote.

In Stealth vs Stealth fighter scenario the possibility exists and most likely they will end up in dogfights! and plus AWACS wont able to detect stealth fighters so they will be kind of useless in this sense..

I guess a lot of water has flown through the river since the Vietnam war. So the situation is totally different. How many Iraqi fighters did the USA pilots gun down during the desert storm? most were taken out from 40 KM or more.

ohh boy..
not entirely true.. US pilot were told to make visual id before they could even think of shooting due to heavy allied air force presence in iraqi airspace... most of the kills were conducted by Aim-7 sparrow prone to all sorts of failures so they had to get closer 10-20 km to get better probability kills.. guns and sidewinders were also used..
6ZmnVqkKapI[/media] - Dogfights - Dogfights of Desert Storm 1 of 5

 

[Vinod2070]

In Stealth vs Stealth fighter scenario the possibility exists and most likely they will end up in dogfights! and plus AWACS wont able to detect stealth fighters so they will be kind of useless in this sense..



ohh boy..
not entirely true.. US pilot were told to make visual id before they could even think of shooting due to heavy allied air force presence in iraqi airspace... most of the kills were conducted by Aim-7 sparrow prone to all sorts of failures so they had to get closer 10-20 km to get better probability kills.. guns and sidewinders were also used..
6ZmnVqkKapI[/media] - Dogfights - Dogfights of Desert Storm 1 of 5

Thx. for the info. I stand corrected.

 

[PakShaheen79]

Post 2015 is going to be a very interesting fighter jet era. 5th Gen. will being inducted and research on 6th Gen on the way.

I do hope that till 2018 we will able to see; F-22,F-35,PAK-FA, JXX etc.