Russia blocks sale of engines for Sino-Pak fighter jets

[mjnaushad]

At least this news proves one thing.......The immature and low quality Chinese and Pakistani aircraft industry is giving hard time to some of the best Air plane manufacturer in the world......

 

[TaimiKhan]

Wah wah ji, lots of members gonna be sent packing for little holiday and some for a long holiday.

 

[Frankenstein]

thanks,finally u accepted it

Stereotypic prototype

 

[nangyale]

MOSCOW, July 5
Russian aircraft makers MiG and Sukhoi have spoken against the sale of RD-93 jet engines to China citing the threat of strong competition from cheaper Chinese models of fighter aircraft.

Russia's state arms exporter Rosoboronexport planned to sign a contract with China on the delivery of 100 RD-93 engines for FC-1 fighters, which are direct competitors of the famed MiG-29 Fulcrum aircraft.

Mikhail Pogosyan, the head of the MiG and Sukhoi corporations, said the re-export of technologies must be approved by the original manufacturers to avoid unfair competition.

The FC-1 Xiaolong (Fierce Dragon) is a single-engine multi-role fighter aircraft developed jointly by China and Pakistan. It is designated as JF-17 Thunder by Pakistan.

A Russian aircraft industry source said the FC-1 is inferior to MiG-29 in performance, but sells for about $10 million, while the price of a MiG-29 is about $35 mln.

MiG-29s are currently competing with FC-1s in an Egyptian tender on the delivery of 32 fighters. In addition, Egypt has launched negotiations with Pakistan on the licensed production of FC-1 aircraft.

Russian Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation (FSMTC) approved the re-export of RD-93 engines to Egypt as part of the FC-1 fighter package in November 2007.

Rosoboronexport has said a decision to allow the re-export of technology could be made only by the government, and the manufacturers have never been consulted on the issue.

Russian weapons manufacturers are also facing increasing competition from China on other arms markets.

Russian S-300 and Chinese HQ-9 air defense systems have been competing in a Turkish tender since 2007.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Well if i remember well, way back in 2006 an order for 100 RD-93s had been placed, and may be more, my guess would be atleast 100+ engines already delivered. Thus for first batch of JF-17s, no worries, they will get inducted as planned. Indian members "khushi" is short lived as it will have no impact on the current induction plan of JF-17s.

Rumors were there that China was going to or had ordered for a few hundred more of these engines for possible export orders, and as per below e-mail, Russia had agreed for the re-export of this engine to 6 countries,Egypt being one. But it seems the Russians had a change of heart as $$$s is a very dear thing in today's world. So now Russians are going back on their word as they want to sell their own MiGs or Sukhoi's.

As per below link, the Algerians were not even happy with their MiG-29s ordered at the same time when initial deal for RD-93s was signed, 2006-7, so yeah Russians are right considering JF-17 a contender for their Mig-29s as even Algeria was not happy with their quality would definitely deter others to buy it, thus best way is to block the contender for which initially the Russians had allowed for re-export.

And this new deal with China for RD-93s is not gonna stop JF-17s program of PAF, rather it is to block China from selling the FC-1/JF-17 to export customers which China is targeting, even though the Russians had initially agreed with China that they can re-export this engine with their fighter, but as MiG-29 can not compete on fair grounds, thus such tactics employed to give a fighting chance to their MiG in winning the order.

Good thing is, China will once again see the true nature of Russia, and will further push towards making operational their own engines, so it may be a small setback for the Chinese export success, but in the long run, it will make their resolve harder.

And yeah China would be inducting FC-1s once the engine issue is solved and more better avionics are finalized.

Pakistan does have wind tunnel testing facilities at Suparco, NESCOM, PAC, DESTO, even the IST Islamabad has them. So before people go on their rants, plz do read or Google net and check it out.

Aviation Forums and Discussions | Patrick's Aviation

 

[anathema]

Trust Indians and pakistani members to turn this into rivalry where there exists none. Its a issue between china and russia -- Let them deal with it folks.

The only thing that Pakistan needs to worry at the moment is,

Do they have enough RD engines to keep the JF 17 production line busy ? If they have enough engines for a year worth production then this is a non issue.

Things will be resolved , Russia will start supplying again -- Question is when ?

Pakistan cannot use WS 13 engine since its not yet matured , a engine takes years to mature and further we dont even know WS 13 engine meets performance characteristics of RD engines.

 

[Guynextdoor]

Trust Indians and pakistani members to turn this into rivalry where there exists none. Its a issue between china and russia -- Let them deal with it folks.

The only thing that Pakistan needs to worry at the moment is,

Do they have enough RD engines to keep the JF 17 production line busy ? If they have enough engines for a year worth production then this is a non issue.

Things will be resolved , Russia will start supplying again -- Question is when ?

Pakistan cannot use WS 13 engine since its not yet matured , a engine takes years to mature and further we dont even know WS 13 engine meets performance characteristics of RD engines.

This is a discussion on defence equipment. The availability and nos. of weapon systems will have implications in case of a conflict (if ever)

 

[Guynextdoor]

Well if i remember well, way back in 2006 an order for 100 RD-93s had been placed, and may be more, my guess would be atleast 100+ engines already delivered. Thus for first batch of JF-17s, no worries, they will get inducted as planned. Indian members "khushi" is short lived as it will have no impact on the current induction plan of JF-17s.

Rumors were there that China was going to or had ordered for a few hundred more of these engines for possible export orders, and as per below e-mail, Russia had agreed for the re-export of this engine to 6 countries,Egypt being one. But it seems the Russians had a change of heart as $$$s is a very dear thing in today's world. So now Russians are going back on their word as they want to sell their own MiGs or Sukhoi's.

As per below link, the Algerians were not even happy with their MiG-29s ordered at the same time when initial deal for RD-93s was signed, 2006-7, so yeah Russians are right considering JF-17 a contender for their Mig-29s as even Algeria was not happy with their quality would definitely deter others to buy it, thus best way is to block the contender for which initially the Russians had allowed for re-export.

And this new deal with China for RD-93s is not gonna stop JF-17s program of PAF, rather it is to block China from selling the FC-1/JF-17 to export customers which China is targeting, even though the Russians had initially agreed with China that they can re-export this engine with their fighter, but as MiG-29 can not compete on fair grounds, thus such tactics employed to give a fighting chance to their MiG in winning the order.

Good thing is, China will once again see the true nature of Russia, and will further push towards making operational their own engines, so it may be a small setback for the Chinese export success, but in the long run, it will make their resolve harder.

And yeah China would be inducting FC-1s once the engine issue is solved and more better avionics are finalized.

Pakistan does have wind tunnel testing facilities at Suparco, NESCOM, PAC, DESTO, even the IST Islamabad has them. So before people go on their rants, plz do read or Google net and check it out.

Aviation Forums and Discussions | Patrick's Aviation

I did google n didn't find them!!! Nyways gud for u.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Kinda too late for that now 1300-1500 engines have been approved for China (and its customers)


PAF to seek more Chinese aircraft, says air chief




***** This is a closed issue in 2007
Thursday, March 29, 2007

our correspondent

ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) aims to acquire 200-250 JF-17 Thunder (FC-1) fighter aircraft in place of the 150 originally envisaged, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed has said in an interview published in the latest issue of the prestigious Jane’s Defence Weekly, an international defence magazine.

The PAF’s first two JF-17s were displayed publicly on 23 March following their arrival earlier in the month. The Pakistani Air chief also spoke about the controversy surrounding reports of the Russia engines intended to power the JF-17. “We haven’t contracted the Russians on this [the engine], so the deal is between Russia and China.We have no issues related to this, although there have been efforts to impede progress by creating some road blocks in this particular path,” said the Pakistani air chief.

According to Jane’s Russian sources had initially said emphatically, that the RD-93 engines supplied to China and meant to power the JF-17 could not be re-exported to Pakistan. This position was reversed in November 2006, when senior officials from Klimov and China’s Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group said during a joint press briefing at the Zhuhai Air Show in China that a re-export deal was nearing completion.


But the publication goes on to say, Pakistani sources claim they have a clear understanding from Chinese authorities that there will be no Russian effort to block the supply of the RD-93 engines to Pakistan. “The Chinese have told us the Russians the Russians will not block the supply of the RD-93 to Pakistan,” one senior Pakistani government official told Jane’s. Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed also told Jane’s that Pakistan should take delivery of another six or seven JF-17 aircraft before 2008, which would be used for testing. “These are all weapons that are on our inventory and we have lots of weapons,” he added, referring to the test programme’s weapon integration phase.

The Pakistani Air Chief expects the first JF-17s to be inducted in a PAF squadron by the end of 2008, with serial production to start at the rate of up to 20 annually. However, the programme’s planned enlargement could see an expansion of production facilities at the Pakistan Aeronautical complex in Kamra or some off-the-shelf acquisitions from China, Jane’s quotes the Pakistani air chief.

On other important projects with China, the Pakistani air chief also revealed that Pakistan is well advanced in negotiations with China on the possible acquisition of up to 40 J-10 fighters which are the most advanced fighter aircrafts so far produced by China. Pakistan President General Pervez Musharraf was given a detailed briefing on the J-10 during his last visit to China.

“We are serious in our discussions and, as air chief, I look forward to getting this programme (of the J-10) to a stage where we can contract this. I am looking at two squadrons of aircraft, anywhere between 32 and 40 platforms,” said the Air chief.

The Pakistani Air chief also revealed in the interview to Jane’s Defence Weekly that China has offered Pakistan an airborne warning and control system aircraft. “We have tested and evaluated, finding it fairly good but there are areas where we definitely want improvements, both in the platform and in the radar,” he said, adding that all these objectives should be achievable.

 

[Hulk]

Everyone loves their baby and so does Pakistan (JF 17). They will get over it sooner then you think. Why are we getting India into this, please do not try to feel more important then we are. I hope best for Pakistan, they have all right to produce and buy weapons as we have.
Also stop feeling insecure, if we have so much insecurity then god bless us. Try to win by our success not by others failures. After so many nation trying to block JF 17 they have done a good job. If they had similar avonics they would be better then LCA by mile.

 

[Choppers]

Thread already existing.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strategic-geopolitical-issues/64342-russia-blocks-sale-engines-sino-pak-fighter-jets.html

 

[TaimiKhan]

Trust Indians and pakistani members to turn this into rivalry where there exists none. Its a issue between china and russia -- Let them deal with it folks.

The only thing that Pakistan needs to worry at the moment is,

Do they have enough RD engines to keep the JF 17 production line busy ? If they have enough engines for a year worth production then this is a non issue.

Things will be resolved , Russia will start supplying again -- Question is when ?

Pakistan cannot use WS 13 engine since its not yet matured , a engine takes years to mature and further we dont even know WS 13 engine meets performance characteristics of RD engines.

Yes for now, enough engines available for completion of first batch of JF-17s as well as spares.

If people look at the report closely without emotions, the main reason for the ban is for the Russian Fighters to get orders where JF-17 would be competing, and for now it is Egypt, and the reason for this blocking is that Russia had initially allowed China to re-export the RD-93 engine to Egypt, Algeria, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Bangladesh & Pakistan, but due to the $$$s involved Russia has a change of heart and banned the engines so that Russia can get the orders from any of these countries where it would be competing and the current most possible buyer is Egypt then may be Bangladesh as they have initiated a program for getting new planes.

So this is the new game, blocking China to sell its aircraft where Russia can sell its MiGs & Sukhoi's but it won't affect Pakistan as they know we can't buy full planes for them.

 

[Hasnain2009]

Interesting that Russia considers JF17 a direct competitor of Mig 29 and at the same time they call it inferior! If its inferior than how it is a direct competitor?

The Russian article says JF17 cost $10 million which is wrong - the cost is between $15m-$17m a piece for Pakistan who invested in JV - price for export will be slightly different but not $10m.

The move is lead by Sukhoi and Mig who dont want to see China as emerging arm exporter selling same quality aircrafts for $20m which Russia is selling for around $35. There are quite a few countries who showed interest in Thunder due to its lower price tag and competitive BVR platform. From Russian point of view its a bid to stop China as if Thunder proves a successful export, Russia is going to loose lots of $$ in the long run not just because of Thunder but other Jets and defense programs, that will follow thus making China a viable Defense supplier for developing countries.


The article explains that report has been submitted to FSMTC, i think final decision is probably going to be by the President/Defence minister. In the past we had similar situation and the sale was actually blocked but than overruled by Vladimir Putin! So lets see what will be the outcome this time.

And for the people who are talking about piracy and copying, the article clearly indicates China is allowed to re-export engine in FC1 to nominated countries as per Nov 2007 agreement.

China has already received first batch of RD-93s (100 engines) that can power initial 100 Thunders and i personally wanted to see WS-13 after the first 50 thunders.

Cost of Jf-17 for export is b/w $20-25mn

 

[Avatar]

Yes for now, enough engines available for completion of first batch of JF-17s as well as spares.

If people look at the report closely without emotions, the main reason for the ban is for the Russian Fighters to get orders where JF-17 would be competing, and for now it is Egypt, and the reason for this blocking is that Russia had initially allowed China to re-export the RD-93 engine to Egypt, Algeria, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Bangladesh & Pakistan, but due to the $$$s involved Russia has a change of heart and banned the engines so that Russia can get the orders from any of these countries where it would be competing and the current most possible buyer is Egypt then may be Bangladesh as they have initiated a program for getting new planes.

So this is the new game, blocking China to sell its aircraft where Russia can sell its MiGs & Sukhoi's but it won't affect Pakistan as they know we can't buy full planes for them.

China would do the same if you reverse the situation.
$$$ is all that matters.
Designing a successful jet engine is one of the most difficult projects, but the success is well worth it. Whether this decision turns out to be a boon for China's aviation industry, we will have to find out.

 

[Hasnain2009]

, but again u guys aren't angels ( Least Chance Airfart, Arjunk etc.)

HEard it for the first time, but u said it rite
I will remember its full abbreviation now