Russia blocks sale of engines for Sino-Pak fighter jets

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I agree with ptldM3. JF-17 is a very good option for developing/underdeveloped/undeveloped countries that need a modern air force, but cannot pay the price for mid/high range 4th gen aircrafts. The differences in performance can be overlooked with almost 1/3 of the price. So lets say someone like N.Korea buys 40 Mig 29's to defend it's capital. If they had a choice, wouldn't they prefer to buy 120-150 JF-17's for the same cost ?
Obviously the numerical superiority of JF-17s can possibly overpower a much lower number of Mig-29's. But, every airforce has a certain requirement for fighters. They qualify x aircrafts as optimum force strength. If they are low on funds/want to save money, they can reach x through cheaper alternatives. If they have funds or only want the best, then they will buy the best even if it's more expensive.

To make it clear, let's assume for a minute Russia sold Mig-29's for the same price as JF-17. Obviously, the choice is clear now.

Even the PAF Chief has said that if it were possible, his boys would fly nothing less than EF Typhoon.

Other than that, JF-17 is excellent for the price.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Taimi,

Doest make sense.

Egypt has been a pro western nation in terms of weapon procurement. Why would they go for Mig 29 ? Also what would mig 29 replace --- F16? which is its peer.....

Why would then even consider russian mig 29 when they have access to F16 block 52 and in future F35 ?

I dont think Egypt was even remotely interested in mig 29 and russians should also know this. I think Russia is worried about some other market where JF 17 might make an impact -- this has got nothing to do with Egypt.

On other hand -- it would be a nightmare of any weapon selling country that a low priced JF 17 which is offering decent capabilities is being sold more -- Russia understands this and may be is trying to delay the inevitable !

Sir, EAF may have western weapons, but they have realized the need to diversify rather then depending on just one source, especially with regard to IDF, who have BVR capability, while the EAF F-16s don't have and the IDF knows F-16s inside and from outside pretty well. The EAF realized this fact after their request for F-15s was rejected by the US on the Israeli pressure, saying that Egypt has Israel as an enemy in its all exercises and it will give problem to IDF in future, thus after that the EAF talk about checking MiG-29s came up, as they need something much superior compared to their adversary.

So if the US not selling them F-15s, can't think why they will sell them F-35s.

Just like PAF, EAF has realized not to keep all its eggs in one basket, that is why the talk of Russian jets or the Pak/China JF-17 came up as they know their mistake in having relied upon the US weaponry.

So i hope it is clear as to why EAF would have gone back to Russian jets or some other manufacturer, where it can be free of the curse while having western platforms only.

For now, this all looks to be the Egyptian case, as it is solely the one who has shown interest and they are in search of a good platform to retire their old aircraft and keep up their numbers.

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

I agree with ptldM3. JF-17 is a very good option for developing/underdeveloped/undeveloped countries that need a modern air force, but cannot pay the price for mid/high range 4th gen aircrafts. The differences in performance can be overlooked with almost 1/3 of the price. So lets say someone like N.Korea buys 40 Mig 29's to defend it's capital. If they had a choice, wouldn't they prefer to buy 120-150 JF-17's for the same cost ?
Obviously the numerical superiority of JF-17s can possibly overpower a much lower number of Mig-29's. But, every airforce has a certain requirement for fighters. They qualify x aircrafts as optimum force strength. If they are low on funds/want to save money, they can reach x through cheaper alternatives. If they have funds or only want the best, then they will buy the best even if it's more expensive.

To make it clear, let's assume for a minute Russia sold Mig-29's for the same price as JF-17. Obviously, the choice is clear now.

Even the PAF Chief has said that if it were possible, his boys would fly nothing less than EF Typhoon.

Other than that, JF-17 is excellent for the price.

Totally agreed , too dab my post got deleted in which I said the same in few words

My example was if a Developing counter want to replace its 60 old mig21s , would they go for 50 Jf-17s or buy 20 Mig 29s for the same price. in this case numbers counts as every air force wants a new decent Planes on which its pilots can have flying hours with least cost. For PAF F-6 was in 80s , F-7 for 90s and now by 2015 JF-17.

 

[Guynextdoor]

A Toyota Yaris's price does not affect the sales of a Merc S500. However a BMW 7 Series' low price would affect its sales.

Trust me, if the Chinese get an operational engine up and running nothing else would matter now the JF-17 has branded as a Mig-29 competitor for good now and it will beat it in price.

The Russians should've moved on to bigger and better things like the US has and leave the low end market for smaller players like China and Pakistan. This whole incident is quite petty and does make China look like the more graceful businessman to deal with.

what crap? So Nokia must focus only on E Series and let 'gracefully' the lower end market for other competitors. Or maybe according to you Unilvere should make only Dove and not Lifebuoy no matter how big the opportunity?

China hasn't 'gracefully' given into anything, it is INCAPABLE of taking on the russians in several segments. Maybe in 20 years but definitely not today. What the russians are trying to show is that they still have the leverage (technological in this case) to make the market go their way. Does it ever occur to you that the Chinese are greek gods only in the minds of the Pakistanis? Sukhoi & Mig are big names and it's goonna take a long time for the chinese to match their pedigree and record.

Sukhoi has made over 10,000 combat jets till date, I don't think any chinese company has come close in terms of technological and design and engineering prowess of sukhoi. Chinese companies are just now perfecting their first combat engine while the ruskies have worked with it for decades and sold it to the world.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Every country is serious about its defence, sometimes price becomes the main reason in the final decision making, especially in these economic times.

Yes but countries in problematic/hot spot zones, they are not much worried about money when it comes to something very efficient system. And if we take Egypt into context for now, i don't seem they have much of a problem with money, they have a big defence budget, good amount of US military aid, thus they can spare the amount for a good effective fighter system.

All aircraft can defend airspace, the question is to what extent. Pilots, docrine, and of course aircraft is the determining factors in gaining air superiority.

What we're talking about is one aircraft being on par with the other, looking at the Mig-29 we can see that it has had time to mature over the last few decades and as so even older downgraded versions of the Mig-29 have proven that they can defeat F-16's and F-18 in mock combat (I'm talking about the German Mig-29's). You also have to remember that the Mig-35 is just a fancy name for the Mig-29 and as so it qualifies as a Mig-29, further, avionics from the Mig-35 are finding their way into regular Mig-29's bar 35. Looking at the Mig-29's specs and avionics it can challenge just about any fighter and I'm not trying to insult anyone, but the JF-17 lags behind the Mig-29 in several departments, and i know what people will say, the Mig-29 is only ahead on paper but the F-22 is also only ahead on paper. Perhaps in the furture the gap will close but for now the JF-17 has not matured enough to be on par with the latest Mig-29, now do not get me wrong, a well flow JF-17 with awacs support can acheive kills against many 4th generation fighters such as the Mig-29, Rafale, F-16 ect but whether or not it is on par with the fighters is another story.

Agreed, that is what i said in my previous posts that Mig-29 is better in paper specifications as well as in performance, but still a lot of variable factors are to be seen, and then in the end it is the operator who has to make the final decision, based on what it wants with what capabilities and performance and what cost. If EAF requirements can be met with JF-17, then why go for MiG-29, as for them JF-17 will do a good job as per their requirements.

And by looking at EAF, it seems just like PAF, they want to make JF-17, their work horse too, as they have quiet good number of Mirage 5s, Mig-21s & J-7s, which need replacement. They have 200+ F-16s and getting more which will be their front line fighters, thus why getting a MiG-29, another front line fighter with high operational cost as well as maintenance costs.

So in the end, its the operator who decides, if he thinks JF-17 will do their required job, go for it, no matter what cost, and if it can't then even they won't buy it if it is given for 5Mln dollars, rather will go for a MiG-29 even if it is worth 40Mln $$$s.

Policies and decisions change, as do the people that make them, the JF-17 can steal potential sales of the Mig-29, F-16 and many other platforms. In my opinion, the person that allowed the JF-17 with RD-93's to be exported to contries outside of Pakistan was a fool.

Well i don't know who allowed the final decision, but i may have an idea it to be Putin, but when he or whoever it was took the decision, they never thought this JF-17 to see the light or even have something to be a competitor to their planes, but since they have started to thought it to be a candidate to steal their orders, it speaks for the capabilities the JF-17 has gotten over the years since its start.

 

[fatman17]

^a base-line or lets say block-1 JF-17 is costing the PAF US$20m/aircraft with PAF requirements.

a export model FC-1 with 100% chinese components (except the RD-93) will not cost less than US$15m/aircraft. the US$10m figure is a 'stretch' but i guess 10 or 15 or even 20m makes the FC-1 cheaper than the MiG-29 being exported by Russia to 3rd world countries.

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

^a base-line or lets say block-1 JF-17 is costing the PAF US$20m/aircraft with PAF requirements.

a export model FC-1 with 100% chinese components (except the RD-93) will not cost less than US$15m/aircraft. the US$10m figure is a 'stretch' but i guess 10 or 15 or even 20m makes the FC-1 cheaper than the MiG-29 being exported by Russia to 3rd world countries.

"3rd world countries" not a politically correct word

 

[hataf]

any official response from PAF on this issue???????????????

 

[mean_bird]

We have already heard WS-13 doing taxi trials. Sounds like a face-saving act to me. Didn't the Russians know of this when they allowed the export in the first place? may be there weren't expecting China to come up with an engine so quickly. And now to think that China would probably have no follow on orders for the RD-93.

Sounds like " You didn't dump me, I dumped you first".

N.B. assuming all this is true in the first place

 

[mjnaushad]

any official response from PAF on this issue???????????????

why should they give any response when there is no effect on PAF or JF 17 for atlest 3 - 4 years....

 

[Machoman]

What about Al-khalid Tank, didn't we also get a engine of that from Russia too? in that case this will be next watch.

 

[TaimiKhan]

What about Al-khalid Tank, didn't we also get a engine of that from Russia too? in that case this will be next watch.

Its Ukrainian engines, not Russians.

 

[Taha Samad]

you had yours(and a premature one that it was) when russia offered the engines despite indian objections but i guess yours was just a bubble that just burst out......

As already mentioned by taimikhan and many others it won't effect Pakistan.

so you guys are like "begani shadi mein abdullah dewana"

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Over the days, the news is getting more interesting. The finer parts of the disclosure are that a plane that has hardly been at a sqdrn strength for only 6 months, is in direct competition with russian pride---the MIG 29---which has been in production for over 20 plus years.

For russians to argue---and naysayers to keep repeating that the jf 17 is not at par with the mig 29 is contradictory to what they are saying otherwise.

Why would russia worry, if the mig was superior to the JF hands down---but if I look at all the posts----there is a forced perception being created that the mig has no worries---whereas the truth is that the mig 29 maybe sitting right at the brink of being toppled over and making room and place for the new commer.

I firmly beleive---like a few of my colleagues that the mig bureau has blundered into forcing sanction on engine delivery---thus shining more light on the JF 17 than it was otherwise possible.

Inadvertantly----the russians may have hurt their own cause---not deliberately but by proxy.

This news will give a big boost to the interest level in the jf 17. That is all what is needed for now---jf 17 needed a foot in the door---and what the russians have done is to shoved it right through into the lime light and that dayus before the Farnborough air show. Pakistan and china could not have asked for a better blessing.

Thanks to my russian brothers. I love you guys---.

 

[ramu]

Hi,

Over the days, the news is getting more interesting. The finer parts of the disclosure are that a plane that has hardly been at a sqdrn strength for only 6 months, is in direct competition with russian pride---the MIG 29---which has been in production for over 20 plus years.

For russians to argue---and naysayers to keep repeating that the jf 17 is not at par with the mig 29 is contradictory to what they are saying otherwise.

Why would russia worry, if the mig was superior to the JF hands down---but if I look at all the posts----there is a forced perception being created that the mig has no worries---whereas the truth is that the mig 29 maybe sitting right at the brink of being toppled over and making room and place for the new commer.

I firmly beleive---like a few of my colleagues that the mig bureau has blundered into forcing sanction on engine delivery---thus shining more light on the JF 17 than it was otherwise possible.

Inadvertantly----the russians may have hurt their own cause---not deliberately but by proxy.

This news will give a big boost to the interest level in the jf 17. That is all what is needed for now---jf 17 needed a foot in the door---and what the russians have done is to shoved it right through into the lime light and that dayus before the Farnborough air show. Pakistan and china could not have asked for a better blessing.

Thanks to my russian brothers. I love you guys---.

If JF-17 is being discussed to topple Mig 29, one wonders why China does not have a squadron of JF-17s ?