PTI, PML-N, Establishment, and the Bangkok Scenario

[Chak Bamu]

Now that it is pretty much settled that Imran Khan has resolved to escalate the current situation to a crisis point. It would be worthwhile to study the recent events that took place in Bangkok, starting from Nov 2013 and culminating in May 2014 Military Coup.

The vicissitudes of Thailand's democratic travails has given rise to many terms. "April Fool's Day Coup" by "Young Turks", "Premocracy". Various military dispensations were interspersed among partial term democratic governments.

Thaksin Shinawatra stands out as only Prime Minister who has ever completed his full term (2001-2005). But he too was removed via a coup while visiting UN Headquarters. At the time he was a care-taker prime minister whose party had won 3rd elections under him. These elections were boycotted by Democrat Party, which has distinction of often being used by Military Establishment as a King's party used to influence politics.

- 2011 Yingluck Shinawatra won an outright majority. She is the real sister of former PM Thaksin Shinawatra who was deposed in a 2006 military coup.

- 2013 Proposed Constitutional ammendments and Amnesty schemes for politicians triggered protests. The government was accused of mis-handling of these.

- Opposition politician, Suthep Thaugsuban of Democrat Party resigned his parliamentary seat in order to lead the protests and appointed himself Secretary General of Peoples Democratic Reform Committee (PDRC) which was conducting mass protests. It is interesting to note that Suthep Thaugsuban had been Deputy Prime Minister in 2008-2011 government that had been installed by interference of the Thai Army in the post-2006 coup period. Democrat party had lost 2007 elections also, but following judicial disqualification of elected PM in 2008, Democratic party was filled by pro-army factions to give Democratic party a majority to form government.

- On 25 Nov 13, PDRC members led by Suthep Thaugsuban marched on several government offices. They broke into Finance Ministry, the Budget Bureau, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Public Relations Department, forcing their closure without police intervention, due to government fears that this could result in a repeat 2006 military coup.

- Similar performance was repeated in other departments on 27th and again on 30th when internet service in Thailand was suspended for hours.

- On 1 Dec the protesters were confronted by police when they tried to force themselves into Government House, and Police Headquarters. Unarmed Army soldiers were called to help police. The same day Suthep's address was force-broadcast from many TV stations that had been occupied. He warned PM Yingluck to return the power to people and that resignation or dissolution of House of Representatives would not be acceptable. Yingluck rejected these demands for being unconstitutional.

- Suthep called for a march on Government House for 'Final Battle" to be made on 9 Dec, after the end of national celebrations of King's birthday.

- On 8 Dec all 143 Democratic Party MPs resigned to further pressurize the government.

- On 9 Dec PM Yingluck Shinawatra dissolved House of Representatives and called early elections on 2 Feb.

- Democrat Party rejected elections. PDRC raised fresh demands. Election Commission suggested postponement of Elections, which was refused on constitutional grounds.

- Elections were held on 2 Feb. About 48% of electorate voted even though PDRC was successful in intimidating and blocking voting at some places. Where voting had to be done later.

- On 21 March Constitutional Court invalidated elections. One of the grounds was that the elections were not held on the same day in the country.

- On 7 May Constitutional Court in a split verdict removed PM Yingluck from her post even though she was in a care-taker role. This contradicted Court's own judgement regarding previous PM Abhisit Vejjajiva who had been made PM by collusion of the Thai Army.

- PDRC further protested and further calls for 'Final Battles' were made to remove the Care taker set up.

-Finally, on 20 May 2014 Martial Law was declared and on 22 May a Coup was staged and the care-taker government was abolished.

There are many lessons to be drawn from the above.

In Pakistan we have many parties like Thailand's Democrat party which is recipient of support from Thai Army Establishment. Such parties advertise their availability by various means including protesting on behalf of the Establishment whenever required or found to be expedient.

By dint of Imran Khan's latest announcement of his hopes for having Army's backing, we may conclude that PTI is the latest addition in the ranks of such parties that openly claim or court Army backing. PTI already is in company of PML-Q for Gujrat Chuadhries, and one man party AML of Sh. Rasheed. The adopted agenda of the loosers of 2013 elections is dimissal of PML-N government and mid-term elections whereby they hope to catch the express train to Islamabad's high offices.

The disruptionist dharna politics of PTI, PAT, PML-Q, and AML (alias Sh. Rasheed) can be seen in the context of Democrat Party of Thailand. It should be noted how its splinter PDRC could easily be disowned for any blood letting during protests, but whose disruption was invaluable in creating instability that resulted in fall of elected government. Such a strategic service is being provided by Tahirul Qadri's PAT, which reflects the wide-eyed messianic self-righteous personality of its founder and leader. Any shortcoming can easily be covered by the young supporters of PTI, who in thrall of Imran Khan can do anything they may or may not be called upon to accomplish.

A simple Google search or two can provide references as to how Thailand's Democrat Party and its puppet PDRC adopted 'people-centered' and 'democratic' language and rhetoric to achieve undemocratic and unconstitutional ends in collusion with Thai Military Establishment. The words, phrases, and rhetoric one hears from our out-of-power and out-of-office politicians and their minions pledges loyalty, support, and service to democracy (or rather 'true' democracy), but one can easily see through their words and guess the ultimate goal.

The Establishment ponies, mules, and lame horses surrounding PTI and supporting PAT are betting that Military Establishment would help them push PML-N out of power. Once the democracy is de-railed, another faux-democratic dispensation might be required and these people hope to be yoked to the carriage of another dictator as ministers and such.

But what about Imran Khan? Is he really so daft as to not realize what this circus is about? How would any Establishment supported dispensation put up with his stubborn streak of independence? Is he ready to serve as the ladder to prop Chaudhries and likes of Sheikh Rasheed who would like nothing less than occupying comfy minister seats in palatial offices in the lap of Margallas?

Fair and timely elections are less about power and more about 'buying into' the democratic process. The politics of 90s conclusively showed that whatever one out-of-power party could do to the other was exactly what itself would suffer in return. If all it take is about 100,000 people (more or less) to disrupt and weaken the government, the plenty others are capable of doing the same. PML-N is not the party of Establishment that it once was. It can gather enough people to do to any future PTI-centered dispensation what PTI is contemplating doing to PML-N's government.

The steadily hardening position of PTI in respect to PML-N's elected government is an indication that Imran Khan is not in a mood to negotiate. What this has actually done is that it has improved our Establishment's bargaining position. It has become the king-maker and it is now in a position to decide and extract promises. Has Imran Khan struck the necessary bargain? Can he be sure?

One could also conclude from the lessons to be learned from Bangkok that no matter how much present government bends itself, it would likely see the goal posts moved farther and farther away. A determined opposition would stay a step ahead in this game until it finally brings down the government. Even calling early elections might not work. If elections are held, their results can be dismissed at one pretext or the other. I see dark days ahead.

If Thailand's politics is any indication, we could well see people reject Establishment backed dispensation again and again forcing it to step in via proxies, only to find its pawns beaten. I suggest that Imran Khan take heed. Former supporters like me would not forgive nor ever forget if he goes through with his impatient plan.

@Aether , @Oscar , @Aeronaut , @AgNoStiC MuSliM , @xyxmt , @ice_man , @Spring Onion , @Manticore , @blain2 , @Joe Shearer , @cb4 , @JonAsad , @Fracker , @faisal6309 , @TheFlyingPretzel , @AZADPAKISTAN2009 , @balixd , @VCheng , @Slav Defence , @hasnain0099 , @farhan_9909 , @Jazzbot , @Indos , @Mugwop , @nair , @Dillinger , @Kaan , @Devil Soul , @Counter-Errorist , @WebMaster , @Secur


PS> I have used multiple Wikipedia webpages to glean information. I have taken care to put my thoughts across as best as I could. I hope there are no copyright issues involved.

 

[AUz]

Only PML(N) is to be blamed for this whole situation.

They should have verified four constituencies by thumb print verification. But instead, they defied PTI its constitutional and legal right, sacked Tariq Ali (NADRA's chairman) in the middle of night (making it almost obvious that PML(N) didn't want any transparency in this situation), and lastly--PML(N) just devastated the country by poor governance--false election promises---and blind borrowing from IMF.

@Chak Bamu Imran Khan's demands were just, transparent, and absolutely within legal frame-work. Thumb print verification of just four, focus on this--JUST FOUR, constituencies. Whats so wrong in it? What took PML(N) more than a whole year to keep this issue alive? Sacking of Tariq Ali, appointment of Najam Sethi after he was removed via court order, and so on.

Sorry, but this is politics and PML(N) should stop playing dirty now. They tried to play dirty, tried to defy the political rights of Pakistanis, and tried to condense power in one family.

Well, sir, now, face the music.

Pakistan Tehreek-i-Insaf and Imran Khan are the single most popular movement in Pakistan. No leader has the charisma of Imran Khan. No leader attracts popularity from all corners of Pakistan as he does.

PML(N) should have known this.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Only PML(N) is to be blamed for this whole situation.

They should have verified four constituencies by thumb print verification. But instead, they defied PTI its constitutional and legal right, sacked Tariq Ali (NADRA's chairman) in the middle of night (making it almost obvious that PML(N) didn't want any transparency in this situation), and lastly--PML(N) just devastated the country by poor governance--false election promises---and blind borrowing from IMF.

@Chak Bamu Imran Khan's demands were just, transparent, and absolutely within legal frame-work. Thumb print verification of just four, focus on this--JUST FOUR, constituencies. Whats so wrong in it? What took PML(N) more than a whole year to keep this issue alive? Sacking of Tariq Ali, appointment of Najam Sethi after he was removed via court order, and so on.

Sorry, but this is politics and PML(N) should stop playing dirty now. They tried to play dirty, tried to defy the political rights of Pakistanis, and tried to condense power in one family.

Well, sir, now, face the music.

Pakistan Tehreek-i-Insaf and Imran Khan are the single most popular movement in Pakistan. No leader has the charisma of Imran Khan. No leader attracts popularity from all corners of Pakistan as he does.

PML(N) should have known this.

I am looking at the bigger picture. From this distance it looks as though a certain script is being followed.

Apart from this observation of mine, I would like to point out that others have addressed this accusation which you are highlighting. To me it does not matter how and what and why a certain step was not taken. You can not differentiate between genuine reasons and mere excuses.

Imran Khan targeted as particular polling station from where Nawaz Sharif had won. The recount showed a mistake which was claimed to be that of counting. This error by itself was not nearly enough to influence the result, and yet Imran Khan and his PTI people raised hell about it. Such mistakes have gone in favor or PTI candidates also. But that did not matter. Similarly I can imagine if even one of those seats' result were to be challenge-able, what would IK and PTI do then? Obviously, going by their actions in very recent past, they would call for invalidation of the whole process.

Somehow it has been made out that the issue is not whether PTI could have won the elections (It could not have). The issue has been made out to be that the elections are a fraud, because F-O-U-R seats' results have not been validated.

Just yesterday IK has climbed up another rung on his protest ladder. He has now demanded that Nawaz Sharif must resign and that fresh election must take place. Essentially this statement of his has prompted me to write my article. I was reminded of Bangkok situation.

Can you not spot the crucial point that we are all being taken for a ride here? An allegation about 4 seats became an allegation about 20-25 seats. Later this was transformed into an allegation about 35 seats. Now, as the opportunism dictates, the whole process has been declared void and suspect. If you can not draw results from this steady progression of rhetoric, it is not my fault. I can only point it out. You may choose to ignore it.

I was not born yesterday. I've been reading stuff for the past 35 years now. IK is new in politics. I've watched his development. I had hoped that he would learn from his mistakes. But while many of his supporters are blind as bats, he feels that he can take unusual risks, make unwarranted statements, indulge in brinkmanship (I so very DO hope it is just Brinkmanship), without worrying about his support-base ever questioning him. Such headlong rush with a commitment to all-or-nothing view is dangerous in a leader. He may get his way finally. It is politics after all. But he has already lost my respect and hence my support.

 

[VCheng]

I am looking at the bigger picture. From this distance it looks as though a certain script is being followed.

Apart from this observation of mine, I would like to point out that others have addressed this accusation which you are highlighting. To me it does not matter how and what and why a certain step was not taken. You can not differentiate between genuine reasons and mere excuses.

Imran Khan targeted as particular polling station from where Nawaz Sharif had won. The recount showed a mistake which was claimed to be that of counting. This error by itself was not nearly enough to influence the result, and yet Imran Khan and his PTI people raised hell about it. Such mistakes have gone in favor or PTI candidates also. But that did not matter. Similarly I can imagine if even one of those seats' result were to be challenge-able, what would IK and PTI do then? Obviously, going by their actions in very recent past, they would call for invalidation of the whole process.

Somehow it has been made out that the issue is not whether PTI could have won the elections (It could not have). The issue has been made out to be that the elections are a fraud, because F-O-U-R seats' results have not been validated.

Just yesterday IK has climbed up another rung on his protest ladder. He has now demanded that Nawaz Sharif must resign and that fresh election must take place. Essentially this statement of his has prompted me to write my article. I was reminded of Bangkok situation.

Can you not spot the crucial point that we are all being taken for a ride here? An allegation about 4 seats became an allegation about 20-25 seats. Later this was transformed into an allegation about 35 seats. Now, as the opportunism dictates, the whole process has been declared void and suspect. If you can not draw results from this steady progression of rhetoric, it is not my fault. I can only point it out. You may choose to ignore it.

I was not born yesterday. I've been reading stuff for the past 35 years now. IK is new in politics. I've watched his development. I had hoped that he would learn from his mistakes. But while many of his supporters are blind as bats, he feels that he can take unusual risks, make unwarranted statements, indulge in brinkmanship (I so very DO hope it is just Brinkmanship), without worrying about his support-base ever questioning him. Such headlong rush with a commitment to all-or-nothing view is dangerous in a leader. He may get his way finally. It is politics after all. But he has already lost my respect and hence my support.

IK is just another pawn that is being used to keep the political system destabilized to serve the wishes of the "angels", like so many times in the past.

 

[genmirajborgza786]

Now that it is pretty much settled that Imran Khan has resolved to escalate the current situation to a crisis point. It would be worthwhile to study the recent events that took place in Bangkok, starting from Nov 2013 and culminating in May 2014 Military Coup.

The vicissitudes of Thailand's democratic travails has given rise to many terms. "April Fool's Day Coup" by "Young Turks", "Premocracy". Various military dispensations were interspersed among partial term democratic governments.

Thaksin Shinawatra stands out as only Prime Minister who has ever completed his full term (2001-2005). But he too was removed via a coup while visiting UN Headquarters. At the time he was a care-taker prime minister whose party had won 3rd elections under him. These elections were boycotted by Democrat Party, which has distinction of often being used by Military Establishment as a King's party used to influence politics.

- 2011 Yingluck Shinawatra won an outright majority. She is the real sister of former PM Thaksin Shinawatra who was deposed in a 2006 military coup.

- 2013 Proposed Constitutional ammendments and Amnesty schemes for politicians triggered protests. The government was accused of mis-handling of these.

- Opposition politician, Suthep Thaugsuban of Democrat Party resigned his parliamentary seat in order to lead the protests and appointed himself Secretary General of Peoples Democratic Reform Committee (PDRC) which was conducting mass protests. It is interesting to note that Suthep Thaugsuban had been Deputy Prime Minister in 2008-2011 government that had been installed by interference of the Thai Army in the post-2006 coup period. Democrat party had lost 2007 elections also, but following judicial disqualification of elected PM in 2008, Democratic party was filled by pro-army factions to give Democratic party a majority to form government.

- On 25 Nov 13, PDRC members led by Suthep Thaugsuban marched on several government offices. They broke into Finance Ministry, the Budget Bureau, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Public Relations Department, forcing their closure without police intervention, due to government fears that this could result in a repeat 2006 military coup.

- Similar performance was repeated in other departments on 27th and again on 30th when internet service in Thailand was suspended for hours.

- On 1 Dec the protesters were confronted by police when they tried to force themselves into Government House, and Police Headquarters. Unarmed Army soldiers were called to help police. The same day Suthep's address was force-broadcast from many TV stations that had been occupied. He warned PM Yingluck to return the power to people and that resignation or dissolution of House of Representatives would not be acceptable. Yingluck rejected these demands for being unconstitutional.

- Suthep called for a march on Government House for 'Final Battle" to be made on 9 Dec, after the end of national celebrations of King's birthday.

- On 8 Dec all 143 Democratic Party MPs resigned to further pressurize the government.

- On 9 Dec PM Yingluck Shinawatra dissolved House of Representatives and called early elections on 2 Feb.

- Democrat Party rejected elections. PDRC raised fresh demands. Election Commission suggested postponement of Elections, which was refused on constitutional grounds.

- Elections were held on 2 Feb. About 48% of electorate voted even though PDRC was successful in intimidating and blocking voting at some places. Where voting had to be done later.

- On 21 March Constitutional Court invalidated elections. One of the grounds was that the elections were not held on the same day in the country.

- On 7 May Constitutional Court in a split verdict removed PM Yingluck from her post even though she was in a care-taker role. This contradicted Court's own judgement regarding previous PM Abhisit Vejjajiva who had been made PM by collusion of the Thai Army.

- PDRC further protested and further calls for 'Final Battles' were made to remove the Care taker set up.

-Finally, on 20 May 2014 Martial Law was declared and on 22 May a Coup was staged and the care-taker government was abolished.

There are many lessons to be drawn from the above.

In Pakistan we have many parties like Thailand's Democrat party which is recipient of support from Thai Army Establishment. Such parties advertise their availability by various means including protesting on behalf of the Establishment whenever required or found to be expedient.

By dint of Imran Khan's latest announcement of his hopes for having Army's backing, we may conclude that PTI is the latest addition in the ranks of such parties that openly claim or court Army backing. PTI already is in company of PML-Q for Gujrat Chuadhries, and one man party AML of Sh. Rasheed. The adopted agenda of the loosers of 2013 elections is dimissal of PML-N government and mid-term elections whereby they hope to catch the express train to Islamabad's high offices.

The disruptionist dharna politics of PTI, PAT, PML-Q, and AML (alias Sh. Rasheed) can be seen in the context of Democrat Party of Thailand. It should be noted how its splinter PDRC could easily be disowned for any blood letting during protests, but whose disruption was invaluable in creating instability that resulted in fall of elected government. Such a strategic service is being provided by Tahirul Qadri's PAT, which reflects the wide-eyed messianic self-righteous personality of its founder and leader. Any shortcoming can easily be covered by the young supporters of PTI, who in thrall of Imran Khan can do anything they may or may not be called upon to accomplish.

A simple Google search or two can provide references as to how Thailand's Democrat Party and its puppet PDRC adopted 'people-centered' and 'democratic' language and rhetoric to achieve undemocratic and unconstitutional ends in collusion with Thai Military Establishment. The words, phrases, and rhetoric one hears from our out-of-power and out-of-office politicians and their minions pledges loyalty, support, and service to democracy (or rather 'true' democracy), but one can easily see through their words and guess the ultimate goal.

The Establishment ponies, mules, and lame horses surrounding PTI and supporting PAT are betting that Military Establishment would help them push PML-N out of power. Once the democracy is de-railed, another faux-democratic dispensation might be required and these people hope to be yoked to the carriage of another dictator as ministers and such.

But what about Imran Khan? Is he really so daft as to not realize what this circus is about? How would any Establishment supported dispensation put up with his stubborn streak of independence? Is he ready to serve as the ladder to prop Chaudhries and likes of Sheikh Rasheed who would like nothing less than occupying comfy minister seats in palatial offices in the lap of Margallas?

Fair and timely elections are less about power and more about 'buying into' the democratic process. The politics of 90s conclusively showed that whatever one out-of-power party could do to the other was exactly what itself would suffer in return. If all it take is about 100,000 people (more or less) to disrupt and weaken the government, the plenty others are capable of doing the same. PML-N is not the party of Establishment that it once was. It can gather enough people to do to any future PTI-centered dispensation what PTI is contemplating doing to PML-N's government.

The steadily hardening position of PTI in respect to PML-N's elected government is an indication that Imran Khan is not in a mood to negotiate. What this has actually done is that it has improved our Establishment's bargaining position. It has become the king-maker and it is now in a position to decide and extract promises. Has Imran Khan struck the necessary bargain? Can he be sure?

One could also conclude from the lessons to be learned from Bangkok that no matter how much present government bends itself, it would likely see the goal posts moved farther and farther away. A determined opposition would stay a step ahead in this game until it finally brings down the government. Even calling early elections might not work. If elections are held, their results can be dismissed at one pretext or the other. I see dark days ahead.

If Thailand's politics is any indication, we could well see people reject Establishment backed dispensation again and again forcing it to step in via proxies, only to find its pawns beaten. I suggest that Imran Khan take heed. Former supporters like me would not forgive nor ever forget if he goes through with his impatient plan.

@Aether , @Oscar , @Aeronaut , @AgNoStiC MuSliM , @xyxmt , @ice_man , @Spring Onion , @Manticore , @blain2 , @Joe Shearer , @cb4 , @JonAsad , @Fracker , @faisal6309 , @TheFlyingPretzel , @AZADPAKISTAN2009 , @balixd , @VCheng , @Slav Defence , @hasnain0099 , @farhan_9909 , @Jazzbot , @Indos , @Mugwop , @nair , @Dillinger , @Kaan , @Devil Soul , @Counter-Errorist , @WebMaster , @Secur


PS> I have used multiple Wikipedia webpages to glean information. I have taken care to put my thoughts across as best as I could. I hope there are no copyright issues involved.

well said, I couldn't have said it any better, the way Imran Khan with his stubbornness is escalating the crisis to a point of no return, & if God forbid any unconstitutional situation arises as a result of this ,history will never forgive him, especially considering at a time, when the country is faced with a war, IDP's & economic challenges ,instead of uniting the nation, Imran khan is erratically pushing the country to the wall

 

[xyxmt]

I am looking at the bigger picture. From this distance it looks as though a certain script is being followed.

Apart from this observation of mine, I would like to point out that others have addressed this accusation which you are highlighting. To me it does not matter how and what and why a certain step was not taken. You can not differentiate between genuine reasons and mere excuses.

Imran Khan targeted as particular polling station from where Nawaz Sharif had won. The recount showed a mistake which was claimed to be that of counting. This error by itself was not nearly enough to influence the result, and yet Imran Khan and his PTI people raised hell about it. Such mistakes have gone in favor or PTI candidates also. But that did not matter. Similarly I can imagine if even one of those seats' result were to be challenge-able, what would IK and PTI do then? Obviously, going by their actions in very recent past, they would call for invalidation of the whole process.

Somehow it has been made out that the issue is not whether PTI could have won the elections (It could not have). The issue has been made out to be that the elections are a fraud, because F-O-U-R seats' results have not been validated.

Just yesterday IK has climbed up another rung on his protest ladder. He has now demanded that Nawaz Sharif must resign and that fresh election must take place. Essentially this statement of his has prompted me to write my article. I was reminded of Bangkok situation.

Can you not spot the crucial point that we are all being taken for a ride here? An allegation about 4 seats became an allegation about 20-25 seats. Later this was transformed into an allegation about 35 seats. Now, as the opportunism dictates, the whole process has been declared void and suspect. If you can not draw results from this steady progression of rhetoric, it is not my fault. I can only point it out. You may choose to ignore it.

I was not born yesterday. I've been reading stuff for the past 35 years now. IK is new in politics. I've watched his development. I had hoped that he would learn from his mistakes. But while many of his supporters are blind as bats, he feels that he can take unusual risks, make unwarranted statements, indulge in brinkmanship (I so very DO hope it is just Brinkmanship), without worrying about his support-base ever questioning him. Such headlong rush with a commitment to all-or-nothing view is dangerous in a leader. He may get his way finally. It is politics after all. But he has already lost my respect and hence my support.

this is exactly how I see things, Script that has played time and time again is being played and fools are being used as a pawn in this power game. Army knows well that one more full term will bring their chances to nil in the future. Script Started with shooting of Hamid Mir and Geo fiasco and since than all we see is how much everyone loves Army, suddenly most channel playing Army songs, all opportunist groups coming out in rallies, little knows politician are shinning their shoes and dry cleaning their inaguration dresses, as if Pakistanis have to prove their support for their army. Suddenly all the reporters and TV channels who thought martial law was so bad for Pakistan that they came out against Musharraf and got good thukai, now writing songs about Raheel's mustache as the most beautiful things they ever seen.

Those of you teenager who think IK's call for midterm election is not a bad thing and his democratic right should know that in Pakistan we have seen that democratic right played over and over again, and now finally that some investment starting to come in the country, lets show the world one more time that they are wrong again about Pakistan and that you are still an immature country.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Nice story..


High percentage of PMLQ sitting in PMLN. S. Rasheed have separate party. Why are you scared from one party? because he is showing true face of PMLN, exposing their corruption, incompetency,open looting, wrong appointments etc ... Sheikh rashid has not a single case of corruption.

Lol, all parties were crying due to rigging.
2007 PML(N): votes 6.7 million (that includes votes of JI, TI, MMA (minus JUI), minor parties, plus all tactical votes).
. 2007 PMLN seats 61. While 2013 PTI, won 28 seats, votes 7.7 million.
There is a reason PMLN is not opening constituencies. If i was PMLN, i would open it from first day, and i would get respect in public with proud.

What strategic services? Its PMLN that attacked on PAT workers at night 2am with hundreds of police . PMLN provided the reason for revolution.



Yes PMLN can gather enough people with the help of police and patwaris.... Everybody knows role of Punjab police.



Nation will not forgive nor ever forget if he accept rigged election.. Every party, from every corner of Pakistan was crying due to rigging..... Accept rigged election?. Are you serious man.... .. No way..... Never.

Its like that you want to remain in this system then Best of luck, Welcome to Bilawal, Maryam partnership. Imran khan should not demand mid term election, he should go towards revolution, First electoral reform then elections.

There is not a single assertion of yours that is worth replying to. Not a single one of your points stands on merit. It is all standard PTI propaganda and obfuscation.

I will only point out the obvious flaws just to show how weak is your grasp on facts:

1. The relevance of your opinion can be gauged from the simple fact there never were any elections in 2007. For 2008 elections PML-N were constrained, had hardly any time to campaign and were restricted to only to some parts of Punjab.

2. The ascending crescendo of criticism upon the conduct of election and the alleged rigging has been taken to ludicrous heights. It is well-known that PTI had accepted electoral defeat but objected about a certain number of seats. From thereon PTI, with help of its legions of uncontrollable and uncouth youth supporters, has raised rhetoric in its campaign of disruption where the entire election is being called rigged, doubtful, and discredited. This is totally absurd to say the least.

3. Anyone who has studied elections held in South Asia knows certain truths.
A) Virtually all elections have local rigging at some level.
B) Whenever there is large scale & systematic rigging at national scale, election results have not been accepted, & governments have fallen within months.
C) Whenever quantum of rigging is estimated to be much below the margin of victory, it is disregarded.
D) Electronic means of voter verification and voting is the best method and it must be adopted.

3. The standard tactics of PTI trolls included abuse, intimidation, emotional appeals, and a general self-righteous attitude. They are right when they are actually wrong; moral when actually abusive; righteous when actually dissolute. They generally display acute lack of grooming and when called upon use a wide array of curse words, and choice bits of abuse. Any Pakistani journalist who stays neutral and shows semblance of balance obviously finds some fault with PTI policies. On social media such journalists are abused in the extreme by PTI trolls. Fair-minded and balanced PTI supporters routinely distance themselves from such riff-raff by claiming that such people are actually PML-N supporters masquerading as PTI followers. Such claims fall flat when such a large number of trolls is observed abusing every credible journalist and observer upon every PTI related story that attempts even constructive criticism.

I have been seeing all this for a while, and die-hard PTI supporters on this forum are a testament to my statements. I am not absolving PML-N partisans from their faults, but they tend to be more mature and passive in trolling and are usually found to be reacting in such endeavors.

Let me quote a hyper-popular uber troll who had uptill now been bending to PTI. His criticism of PTI & PAT tactics has earned him wrath of PTI trolls and I shall share the following tweets by him:

Saroor Ijaz ‏@SaroorIjaz

- PTI youth Alphabet: A for Abuse, B for Bullcrap and C for more Crap

- The abusive trolling by certain impressionable and misled youth proves there is an Abid Sher Ali hiding deep inside those uncouth youth

- The primal level of response shown by certain impressionable and misled youth calls for an immediate refresher course in logic & ethics

- In Naya Pakistan, tolerance for opposing point of view will be considered undemocratic, unconstitutional and un-Islamic

- This Azadi will come on a motorcycle and communicated via Social mad-ia

- All the creativity in abusing should have been used by certain impressionable uncouth youth to find ways to stop rigging. Protest Vigil

- Certain impressionable, misled and uncouth youth have developed a very unhealthy obsession with Saroor Ijaz. The irony is unmistakable


I have written all this to make sure that things are correctly put in context as far as PTI propaganda and tactics are concerned.

The post to which I am responding and the above response from myself actually has very little to do with the thread. It is deplorable that my thesis and its background that has been ignored by any and every PTI supporter. Nobody has addressed Sheikh Rasheed and PML-Q Chaudhries as proxies of Military Establishment and PTI's honey-moon with them. Neither has any one talked about PTI's allegations about them having support of Army Establishment.

 

[faisal6309]

I blame PML(N) for everything going on in Pakistan. But I don't think that Imran Khan can solve all of our problems. Nawaz Sharif is still better but chances of Imran Khan or Marshal Law are high.

 

[Chak Bamu]

I blame PML(N) for everything going on in Pakistan. But I don't think that Imran Khan can solve all of our problems. Nawaz Sharif is still better but chances of Imran Khan or Marshal Law are high.

You are right. Since PML-N is in government, they get more blame. But one can not absolve IK from cozying up to failed establishment politicians. I am not even talking about that nut-case mad mullah TuQ.

Disruptionist policies probably benefit IK, but at the cost of national objectives. Its dirty politics.

 

[Chak Bamu]

omar r quraishi ‏@omar_quraishi
Ex-DG ISI came to PTI MNA Shafqat Mahmood's house in a BMW (number plate QZ-369) and met IK there for 2h 20 mins - meeting happened on Aug 2

Another reference; this time to my very recent post in another thread:

"Former DG ISI, as serving DG ISI is known to have championed IK and is suspected of having promoted PTI.
IK now has acquired stains other than corruption.

He is stained with Establishment connections and doing their bidding.
He is stained with calling for extra-constitutional measures.
He is stained with attempts of derailing the democratic system.
He is stained with instigating people with populist rhetoric.
He is stained with some other things that I do not wish to mention.

Just look at the sort of people he is surrounded with.
Just look at his impact on political atmosphere.
Just look at his history.

I have given up on him for the next 3 years."

Source: Why Azadi March is essential !

IF Army moves in and assumes control in the next few months, the Bangkok scenario would be complete! We have everything in place, just like Thailand.

 

[alibaz]

omar r quraishi ‏@omar_quraishi
Ex-DG ISI came to PTI MNA Shafqat Mahmood's house in a BMW (number plate QZ-369) and met IK there for 2h 20 mins - meeting happened on Aug 2

Another reference; this time to my very recent post in another thread:

"Former DG ISI, as serving DG ISI is known to have championed IK and is suspected of having promoted PTI.
IK now has acquired stains other than corruption.

He is stained with Establishment connections and doing their bidding.
He is stained with calling for extra-constitutional measures.
He is stained with attempts of derailing the democratic system.
He is stained with instigating people with populist rhetoric.
He is stained with some other things that I do not wish to mention.

Just look at the sort of people he is surrounded with.
Just look at his impact on political atmosphere.
Just look at his history.

I have given up on him for the next 3 years."

Source: Why Azadi March is essential !

IF Army moves in and assumes control in the next few months, the Bangkok scenario would be complete! We have everything in place, just like Thailand.

The information could not be substantiated, only one (not a main stream urdu news paper) reported, one minister toed it and brought to electronic media by Dr Shahid Masood who later backed off very next day due to lack of authenticity. Secondly what is status of retired general. He doesn't hold any portfolio in Pakistani establishment.

 

[VCheng]

IF Army moves in and assumes control in the next few months, the Bangkok scenario would be complete! We have everything in place, just like Thailand.

The Army knows it cannot mount a coup directly. It only needs to keep the civilian government "in its place", that is all, but keeping the political process suitably destabilized, and kept just so on edge, using proxies turned up or down as needed.

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

Your Whole theory fails sir.
Its government fault.. There was no TUQ on 17 June.. Nawaz sharif has personal differences with TUQ and PAT, he want to crush his opponents by force.... Why operation started at night 2am In Minhajul-quran which has history of Non violence and disciplined party.. This is fashion in Pakistan to blame the Establishment when government fails.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=245960938933573

 

[Amaa'n]

bamu bhai - aik baat tou baatien , don't you think, you are overthinking about this whole scenario.
it could be the reason that you have seen 77' , 79' and 99', and by that time, i wasn't even born, heck i was way too young to even remember the 99'....the very blurry image of 99' i have in mind is, my relative calling us in the middle of night that she watched on PTV, ISB being taken over by military---and next day by evening we found out that Mushy has taken over the seat----
however, coming back to the present that, i think i have a pretty good idea, and so does every other citizen, and military will not risk it....if PTI and PAT can gather such a crowd then imagine what kind of a crowd PMLN , JUIF, PPP will bring on the street if its a Coup----
whatever the case here is my Theory - and mind it its just a theory
one thing we need to keep in mind about Establishment is these guys don't plan for 1-3 years, but for long term strategic goals, they will keep a Jihadi alive only to use him after 30 years-----

* 2011 - a serving DG ISI meets Chairman PTI and agrees to fund his campaign, he was the only player back then with good following, and whom energetic youth could follow - and who had a good support not inside the country but also abroad -- i was in UK then and had a close friend who was a party worker -----
* Oct - Dec 2011 - comes the time when PTI holds the jalsa - they had the financial support from the establishment
* allot of new people start joining the party, starting with Shah Mehmood Qureshi & the Baghi
* 2012, it was the campaign year,rally here and a jalsa there - the twist here was Establishment viewed PTI as a backup too- someone who could oppose PMLN shall the need arises ---
*2013 - Election year - PMLN wins with a majorirty - they were "allowed" to win. as pti was not a mature party and still in its early phase PMLN with a business mind would help them get stabilize things, while they prepare to go war--- they also viewed that Nawaz shariff would let go off his ego, and would play as a mature politcian, perhaps they were decieved by Shahbaz Shariff & Ch. Nisar, as they are the only wise person in PMLN team ----
*2014 - things did not go as planned, PMLN still had a grudge against military, he would not let go off his stubbornness, after various attempts of Ch.nisar & SS he was still the same ---so Establishment had to make some calls, they put their pawn back to the play ---

The common thing I see between 77, 79 & 99, is that all other parties who were not in Govt, sided with Establishment as they wanted a piece of Cake too - they allowed the Establishment to take over --- PPP along with other major parties sided with Zia in 79 to delay the elections because they knew that they would not be able to win much seats, so they played along -----

Who is to blame?? well its beyond me ---because i see both sides on the wrong ---

Now that it is pretty much settled that Imran Khan has resolved to escalate the current situation to a crisis point. It would be worthwhile to study the recent events that took place in Bangkok, starting from Nov 2013 and culminating in May 2014 Military Coup.

The vicissitudes of Thailand's democratic travails has given rise to many terms. "April Fool's Day Coup" by "Young Turks", "Premocracy". Various military dispensations were interspersed among partial term democratic governments.

Thaksin Shinawatra stands out as only Prime Minister who has ever completed his full term (2001-2005). But he too was removed via a coup while visiting UN Headquarters. At the time he was a care-taker prime minister whose party had won 3rd elections under him. These elections were boycotted by Democrat Party, which has distinction of often being used by Military Establishment as a King's party used to influence politics.

- 2011 Yingluck Shinawatra won an outright majority. She is the real sister of former PM Thaksin Shinawatra who was deposed in a 2006 military coup.

- 2013 Proposed Constitutional ammendments and Amnesty schemes for politicians triggered protests. The government was accused of mis-handling of these.

- Opposition politician, Suthep Thaugsuban of Democrat Party resigned his parliamentary seat in order to lead the protests and appointed himself Secretary General of Peoples Democratic Reform Committee (PDRC) which was conducting mass protests. It is interesting to note that Suthep Thaugsuban had been Deputy Prime Minister in 2008-2011 government that had been installed by interference of the Thai Army in the post-2006 coup period. Democrat party had lost 2007 elections also, but following judicial disqualification of elected PM in 2008, Democratic party was filled by pro-army factions to give Democratic party a majority to form government.

- On 25 Nov 13, PDRC members led by Suthep Thaugsuban marched on several government offices. They broke into Finance Ministry, the Budget Bureau, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Public Relations Department, forcing their closure without police intervention, due to government fears that this could result in a repeat 2006 military coup.

- Similar performance was repeated in other departments on 27th and again on 30th when internet service in Thailand was suspended for hours.

- On 1 Dec the protesters were confronted by police when they tried to force themselves into Government House, and Police Headquarters. Unarmed Army soldiers were called to help police. The same day Suthep's address was force-broadcast from many TV stations that had been occupied. He warned PM Yingluck to return the power to people and that resignation or dissolution of House of Representatives would not be acceptable. Yingluck rejected these demands for being unconstitutional.

- Suthep called for a march on Government House for 'Final Battle" to be made on 9 Dec, after the end of national celebrations of King's birthday.

- On 8 Dec all 143 Democratic Party MPs resigned to further pressurize the government.

- On 9 Dec PM Yingluck Shinawatra dissolved House of Representatives and called early elections on 2 Feb.

- Democrat Party rejected elections. PDRC raised fresh demands. Election Commission suggested postponement of Elections, which was refused on constitutional grounds.

- Elections were held on 2 Feb. About 48% of electorate voted even though PDRC was successful in intimidating and blocking voting at some places. Where voting had to be done later.

- On 21 March Constitutional Court invalidated elections. One of the grounds was that the elections were not held on the same day in the country.

- On 7 May Constitutional Court in a split verdict removed PM Yingluck from her post even though she was in a care-taker role. This contradicted Court's own judgement regarding previous PM Abhisit Vejjajiva who had been made PM by collusion of the Thai Army.

- PDRC further protested and further calls for 'Final Battles' were made to remove the Care taker set up.

-Finally, on 20 May 2014 Martial Law was declared and on 22 May a Coup was staged and the care-taker government was abolished.

There are many lessons to be drawn from the above.

In Pakistan we have many parties like Thailand's Democrat party which is recipient of support from Thai Army Establishment. Such parties advertise their availability by various means including protesting on behalf of the Establishment whenever required or found to be expedient.

By dint of Imran Khan's latest announcement of his hopes for having Army's backing, we may conclude that PTI is the latest addition in the ranks of such parties that openly claim or court Army backing. PTI already is in company of PML-Q for Gujrat Chuadhries, and one man party AML of Sh. Rasheed. The adopted agenda of the loosers of 2013 elections is dimissal of PML-N government and mid-term elections whereby they hope to catch the express train to Islamabad's high offices.

The disruptionist dharna politics of PTI, PAT, PML-Q, and AML (alias Sh. Rasheed) can be seen in the context of Democrat Party of Thailand. It should be noted how its splinter PDRC could easily be disowned for any blood letting during protests, but whose disruption was invaluable in creating instability that resulted in fall of elected government. Such a strategic service is being provided by Tahirul Qadri's PAT, which reflects the wide-eyed messianic self-righteous personality of its founder and leader. Any shortcoming can easily be covered by the young supporters of PTI, who in thrall of Imran Khan can do anything they may or may not be called upon to accomplish.

A simple Google search or two can provide references as to how Thailand's Democrat Party and its puppet PDRC adopted 'people-centered' and 'democratic' language and rhetoric to achieve undemocratic and unconstitutional ends in collusion with Thai Military Establishment. The words, phrases, and rhetoric one hears from our out-of-power and out-of-office politicians and their minions pledges loyalty, support, and service to democracy (or rather 'true' democracy), but one can easily see through their words and guess the ultimate goal.

The Establishment ponies, mules, and lame horses surrounding PTI and supporting PAT are betting that Military Establishment would help them push PML-N out of power. Once the democracy is de-railed, another faux-democratic dispensation might be required and these people hope to be yoked to the carriage of another dictator as ministers and such.

But what about Imran Khan? Is he really so daft as to not realize what this circus is about? How would any Establishment supported dispensation put up with his stubborn streak of independence? Is he ready to serve as the ladder to prop Chaudhries and likes of Sheikh Rasheed who would like nothing less than occupying comfy minister seats in palatial offices in the lap of Margallas?

Fair and timely elections are less about power and more about 'buying into' the democratic process. The politics of 90s conclusively showed that whatever one out-of-power party could do to the other was exactly what itself would suffer in return. If all it take is about 100,000 people (more or less) to disrupt and weaken the government, the plenty others are capable of doing the same. PML-N is not the party of Establishment that it once was. It can gather enough people to do to any future PTI-centered dispensation what PTI is contemplating doing to PML-N's government.

The steadily hardening position of PTI in respect to PML-N's elected government is an indication that Imran Khan is not in a mood to negotiate. What this has actually done is that it has improved our Establishment's bargaining position. It has become the king-maker and it is now in a position to decide and extract promises. Has Imran Khan struck the necessary bargain? Can he be sure?

One could also conclude from the lessons to be learned from Bangkok that no matter how much present government bends itself, it would likely see the goal posts moved farther and farther away. A determined opposition would stay a step ahead in this game until it finally brings down the government. Even calling early elections might not work. If elections are held, their results can be dismissed at one pretext or the other. I see dark days ahead.

If Thailand's politics is any indication, we could well see people reject Establishment backed dispensation again and again forcing it to step in via proxies, only to find its pawns beaten. I suggest that Imran Khan take heed. Former supporters like me would not forgive nor ever forget if he goes through with his impatient plan.

@Aether , @Oscar , @Aeronaut , @AgNoStiC MuSliM , @xyxmt , @ice_man , @Spring Onion , @Manticore , @blain2 , @Joe Shearer , @cb4 , @JonAsad , @Fracker , @faisal6309 , @TheFlyingPretzel , @AZADPAKISTAN2009 , @balixd , @VCheng , @Slav Defence , @hasnain0099 , @farhan_9909 , @Jazzbot , @Indos , @Mugwop , @nair , @Dillinger , @Kaan , @Devil Soul , @Counter-Errorist , @WebMaster , @Secur


PS> I have used multiple Wikipedia webpages to glean information. I have taken care to put my thoughts across as best as I could. I hope there are no copyright issues involved.

 

[VCheng]

Who is to blame?? well its beyond me ---because i see both sides on the wrong ---

There is plenty of blame to go all around, for the politicians, for the Generals, and indeed for the public too. It takes them all to ruin Pakistan the way it is being ruined.