Proliferation - its history and realities

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

A grand topic has emerged , to debate weather , Sir Abdul Qadir Sahib [(Qadeer) those that love to use 'ee' ] why should our National Hero warrant , titles like "A Q Khan". What is this Prolifiration

a) Since when does a Nation loses its right to share technological
Advancement with allies

Manhattan Project
Employed more than 130,000 people , scientist from all over the globe (Allied forces converged in 7-8 cities in USA to coduct joint
research and development, during world war 2.

Was any of these people guilty of Prolifiration , the Americans shared knowledge with Canadians, they passed it to British , Spies stole it and sold it off to russians and chinese.

Location of cities where all the profiliration activities took place

Passage taken from Russian (Research/Profiliration Activities)
A similar effort was undertaken in the USSR in September 1941 headed by Igor Kurchatov (with some of Kurchatov's World War II knowledge coming secondhand from Manhattan Project countries, thanks to spies, including at least two on the scientific team at Los Alamos, Klaus Fuchs and Theodore Hall, unknown to each other).


Of course the Germans could argue... we discovered stealth

It was stolen - and passed on to allies ...

V-2 Rokect
At the end of the war, a race began between the United States and the USSR to retrieve as many V-2 rockets and staff as possible.[38] Three hundred trainloads[citation needed] of V-2s and parts were captured and shipped to the United States, and 126 of the principal designers, including both Wernher von Braun and Walter Dornberger were in American hands. Von Braun, his brother Magnus von Braun, and seven others decided to surrender to the United States military (Operation Paperclip) to ensure they were not shot dead by the Nazis as they were prized possessions or be captured by the advancing Soviets

So there you go Prolifiration of rocket engineering and stealing of engineers...


European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN)
Isn't that the biggest organization for Prolifiration -



How many Pakistani Scientist invited to take part in it ?

The point I would like to riase is , that "Prolifiration" is a word conjured up to keep cooperation between non european states to minimum ....

Why should we not share our knowledge freely ? Isn't it collaboration ??? as well ??

Also , sharing of knowledge and wisdom has been done thru out history...

Point to think ...

Abdul Qadir(Qadeer) Sahib , has done a wonderful job to create our nuclear asset....

There was absolutely no reason for him to go live on TV to give out any statement , did Einstine and his buddies went on national tv to tell germans , ok we won't give the nuclear secrets to Russians/Britist ? exactly

When US decides to give civil nuclear technology to India, that should a double standard, while India launched it weapons in 1974, we got hit with sanctions later... then India conducted full blown launches ... when we did it we got banned and India got rewarded....

That can be considered Prolifiration - because - India violated and started arms race in region


"When scientist were researching for Nuclear fission alot of them did not knew it would be used in military applications" hmmmm talk about moral mumbo jumbo ....

Statement from CERN -
"None of our research has potential for military application, and all our results are published openly in the public domain," the organisation said in a statement.

 

[pak-yes]

Sir it's a double standard of the west.They get their hands on some technology and say"Gosh We secured it".

And When some Unfavorable nations get technology.They Say"Hey you Thief"

Thinking like they only have the brains in the world and others are just but mindless monkeys.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

double post ...deleting this one ----

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

There is no single treaty that Pakistan has to report to nor our citizens have to answer to anyone - specially not outside of our country.

Pakistan nor India none of them have any treaties we did not sign NPT so we are under no jurisdiction , we can do what we want with our nuclear technology , build energy plants or rockets ...

The main issue is if Nuclear weapons could be given to Israel to prevent any agression then what else can be said about "Prolifiration"

Are we to assume that Israel just got the bombs from a goose's eggs ??

Unless there is a treaty by virtue of while , all 5-6 nuclear armed nations have agreed to destroy their wepons how can they dictate what we should or should not do ...?

Prolifiration cannot be even discussed unless we discuss , how all the nations achived their own nuclear programs - with out research by different engineers from different countries such break thrus were not even possible

Prolifiration is a necessity of innovation - unless there is flow of knowledge , new innovative ideas cannot be born

After all Nuclear technology is the cleanest form of energy source... and unless nations develop it they will not be able to catch up to other nations

 

[ameer219]

I totally agree with you on this one!

 

[Chanakyaa]

Firstly u got to understand what proliferation is.
Its weird and illogical to state that 'india did a nuclear proliferation by testing in1974 and violating a treaty' , atreaty which never existed.

Proliferation means sharing the nuclear knowhow illegally, AQ Khan made the bomb for pak was fine, but he got it wrong when he shared and proliferated it to iran, korea and libya.

Regarding the double standards u r talking, it again shows ur deep ignorance.

It was US which allowd khan to make all his deals' with chinese n koreans and didnt arrest khan even though the netherlands intellegence knew all about him.
US needed pak to have support i n getting soviets out of afganistan and so CIA got blind on him.
Had US not allowd u, u would not have the bomb.

The indoUS deal is not about weapons but the fuel.
we need it for our industries not weapons.
And its a Econmic deal for civil uses not Military.

Yes, qe have benifits but u too could have had it, if Pak would'not have tarnished its image by imerging as a nuclear blackmarket hub - courtesy AQ KHAN.

Khan no doubt did good to its country but he did the greatest wrong to humanisty by providing the same bomb to others and endangering everyone.

 

[Hayreddin]

Almost every nation having nuclear technology ,got it by proliferation.

 

[Chanakyaa]

Even if what u say is true, atleast others were interested in just getting it for their own not distributing it to hands of global threats.

 

[jagjitnatt]

Lets try to understand it in simpler terms.

Syed is a guy who made a great recipe and shared it with a friend of his named Dilip. Now Dilip goes out and gives to a friend of his Kapoor but with Syed's permission. There is no violation till now.
But Kapoor goes out and shares it with John without the permission of Syed and Dilip. Now that is proliferation.

Syed would definitely feel cheated for he was the one who founded the recipe and no doubt he gave it to Kapoor but that doesn't mean Kapoor had complete rights to it.

Also you can't buy a single MS Windows CD and copy it 200 times and sell or distribute. You own the copy but not the rights to distribute.

I hope I could explain it. Did I?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Even if what u say is true, atleast others were interested in just getting it for their own not distributing it to hands of global threats.

French proliferation to Israel:

... French premier Guy Mollet is even quoted as saying privately that France "owed" the bomb to Israel.

On 3 October 1957, France and Israel signed a revised agreement calling for France to build a 24 MWt reactor (although the cooling systems and waste facilities were designed to handle three times that power) and, in protocols that were not committed to paper, a chemical reprocessing plant. This complex was constructed in secret, and outside the IAEA inspection regime, by French and Israeli technicians at Dimona, in the Negev desert under the leadership of Col. Manes Pratt of the IDF Ordinance Corps.

Both the scale of the project and the secrecy involved made the construction of Dimona a massive undertaking. A new intelligence agency, the Office of Science Liasons,(LEKEM) was created to provide security and intelligence for the project. At the height construction, some 1,500 Israelis some French workers were employed building Dimona. To maintain secrecy, French customs officials were told that the largest of the reactor components, such as the reactor tank, were part of a desalinization plant bound for Latin America. In addition, after buying heavy water from Norway on the condition that it not be transferred to a third country, the French Air Force secretly flew as much as four tons of the substance to Israel. ...
Nuclear Weapons - Israel

Pakistan is not a signatory to the NPT, and therefore violated nothing. If Western nations could proliferate technology to other nations of their choosing, why hold Pakistan responsible?

And in Pakistan's case the evidence still indicates that attempted proliferation to Iran and Libya was done by the AQ Khan network, and not by the State, as was the case with France for example.

 

[Chanakyaa]

I really feel sorry about how easy its for pak gov to use terms like 'non state actors' and in this case khan being a 'non state element'... To hide its own fault.

Just search ' aq khan' on google video and watch that 45 min video.

see what pakistanis say in that video...

'how can he go 14 times to north kora and gov not knowing it'
- ex PM benazir bhutto.

'that same video shows spotting of c130 cargo plane in korea apparatly delivering nuclear equipments.'

AQ khan simply commercialised the nuclear tech, if u can pay AQ Khan can give u the bomb as he gave it to libya, iran and korea and perhaps offered it to saudi and iraq as well.

and if it was all okey , why give the greatest blame to ur most favpurite and patriot scientist?

 

[TaimiKhan]

French proliferation to Israel:



Pakistan is not a signatory to the NPT, and therefore violated nothing. If Western nations could proliferate technology to other nations of their choosing, why hold Pakistan responsible?

And in Pakistan's case the evidence still indicates that attempted proliferation to Iran and Libya was done by the AQ Khan network, and not by the State, as was the case with France for example.

Its a problem with some who see just one angle of an issue, while neglecting many others, for their own satisfaction or should i say pleasure.

People tend to forget the French help to Israel.

Israel's help to the South African nuke program.

The US help in Israel's nuke program.

The Great Britain's help in Israel's nuke program.

And many other examples.

These were all clandestine programs, which helped Israel and SA get their nuke weapons and they for sure come into Proliferation's definition.

But people for their own satisfaction & means tend to forget these Proliferation, but have an issue with us.

Why don't the champions of democracy and controllers of proliferation ask and control the western companies who are full time selling the nuclear weapons program related things on the black market and not saying anything to them.

If there is no seller, there won't be anyone to buy it also.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I really feel sorry about how easy its for pak gov to use terms like 'non state actors' and in this case khan being a 'non state element'... To hide its own fault.

Mumbai was not the Pakistani State's fault - India has offered no evidence to indicate it was, so the argument of 'non-state actors' is an extremely valid one, as is the point that Pakistan was not responsible for the Mumbai attacks.

Just search ' aq khan' on google video and watch that 45 min video.

see what pakistanis say in that video...

'how can he go 14 times to north kora and gov not knowing it'
- ex PM benazir bhutto.

'that same video shows spotting of c130 cargo plane in korea apparatly delivering nuclear equipments.'

AQ khan simply commercialised the nuclear tech, if u can pay AQ Khan can give u the bomb as he gave it to libya, iran and korea and perhaps offered it to saudi and iraq as well.

and if it was all okey , why give the greatest blame to ur most favpurite and patriot scientist?

AQ Khan was allowed to set up an extensive network and given a huge amount of resources to build up Pakistan's nuclear program. By definition the clandestine program meant to build up Pakistan's nuclear program was under little accountability (since it was all shadowy and under the radar), so if AQ Khan could use his contacts and network to smuggle things into Pakistan, he could also use the same contacts and networks to smuggle things out of Pakistan.

There is no evidence at this point that the Pakistani State was involved - even the reported 'Khan Letter' has a lot of glaring factual errors and inconsistencies to be taken as credible.

For now the evidence does point to the fact the Khan acted alone.

But the point is that even if the State was involved, given that Pakistan is not a signatory to the NPT, why single it out for criticism on proliferation when Western nations proliferated openly to nations of their choosing?

 

[qsaark]

But the point is that even if the State was involved, given that Pakistan is not a signatory to the NPT, why single it out for criticism on proliferation when Western nations proliferated openly to nations of their choosing?

That is the most correct answer and if you ask me the reason, the reply lies in a visit to KRL. Those who have served in those facilities know it better.

 

[gambit]

There is no evidence at this point that the Pakistani State was involved - even the reported 'Khan Letter' has a lot of glaring factual errors and inconsistencies to be taken as credible.

For now the evidence does point to the fact the Khan acted alone.

So let me get this straight...Pakistani members take great offense at the notion that Pakistani nuclear assets need foreign assistance in their security...But...but...The flamboyant and attention hound AQ Khan pretty much had total or near total control of Pakistani nuclear assets and everyone is fine with that.