Possible new LACM?

[Akasa]

What ever it is, it will not be an threat to the JMSDF.

Actually, it will be. A very major threat, as a matter of fact. Japan would have major trouble detecting and engaging those kinds of missiles when they have no long wavelength radar. In light of this, it would be interesting to see what their response would be.

 

[gambit]

What does stealth cruise missile means?

I thought all cruise missiles are stealth anyway as they have very small RCS.

Physical shaping matters more than dimensions. The more irregular the shape, the greater the variations in RCS values throughout any ranges of perspectives. That does not mean dimensions do not contribute to the overall average RCS. Size does matter and the smaller -- the lower that overall average RCS value. The reason we included shaping is to make that average RCS value even lower.

 

[gambit]

Cruise missile once detected are dead meat... Their slow speed makes them easily intercepted.

China Defense Blog: LD-2000 Land-Based Close-in Weapons System

Ballistic missile, even detected and try to destroy it will means no easy feat. They fly very high and hit you with very fast speed(at least Mach 6). Their damage is also very great(Imagine an kinetic impact hit you at 6 mach..., not to mention explosive warhead hiting you at 6 mach)compare to cruise missile.

Fast speed meaning also lesser reaction time for enemy to counter it. Newest version of Ballistic Missile has CEP of 10m or less.. Russian Iskandar and China DF-15/21 or SY-400.

Bunk. Whatever 'slow speed' means...

First...There is no such thing as 'slow' or 'fast'. Everything is relativistic. Ten km/hr is merely a figure. When relative to five km/hr, it is FASTER. When relative to twenty km/hr, it is SLOWER.

Now...What is Mach at sea level?

Speed of Sound at different altitudes (km/h, mph, knots)

761.1 mph
661 knots
1,225 km/r
340.3 m/s

The American Ground Launch Cruise Missile (GLCM) speed is 550-600 mph or 880-900 km/h. This speed was carefully calculated to give the vehicle ample time to execute terrain avoidance/following maneuvers at sea level altitude.

Is it possible to go that low? Absolutely. Here is a Chinese example...

PLA Cruise Missiles / PLA Air - Surface Missiles

The C-101 is China's first indigenous supersonic cruise missile. This design is analogous to Soviet first generation supersonic cruise missiles, but is a unique design employing ramjet propulsion in an arrangement most akin to the Bristol Bloodhound SAM.

The missile uses a pair of jettisonable solid rocket boosters which accelerate it up to Mach 1.8. upon which the 180 kN ramjet sustainers are started and the missile accelerates up to its cruise speed of ~Mach 2.0. The sustainers are fuelled with 200 kg of aviation kerosene. The cruise altitude is programmed at 50 metres AMSL, and terminal closure to target from a distance of 5 km to impact is at 5 metres AMSL. Range is cited at 45 km.

Tactically speaking, as in real world conditions, the phrase 'sea level' is casually used to includes literally surface (0) to up to 1000 meters altitude. Mach figure difference is only 20 km/h. Tactically and statistically insignificant.

Tactical response time is measured by 'horizon break', as in the moment a cruise missile appears on one horizon and disappears over the other horizon. The higher the view, visually or radar, the longer this time span, and the longer the response time. So put either the man or the radar on a tower. The taller the tower, the further the man or radar can see.

If the response mechanism, not viewer which is either man or radar, is at ground level, it have less than one second to do whatever it is supposed to do. Ground air defense is exactly that -- ground -- and it includes the viewer -- radar. So now both viewer and mechanism is at ground level.

Visual distance at ground level, as in from horizon to horizon, is about 25 km at best.

Here is the calculator for that...

Horizon calculator - radar and visual

If h1 and h2 are at 5 meters, visual and radar horizons are less than 20 km distance. Now the cruise missile is traveling at over 800 km/h to cover at best 25 km distance.

The cruise missile is 'dead meat' once detected?

 

[ANPP]

Bunk. Whatever 'slow speed' means...

First...There is no such thing as 'slow' or 'fast'. Everything is relativistic. Ten km/hr is merely a figure. When relative to five km/hr, it is FASTER. When relative to twenty km/hr, it is SLOWER.

Now...What is Mach at sea level?

Speed of Sound at different altitudes (km/h, mph, knots)

The American Ground Launch Cruise Missile (GLCM) speed is 550-600 mph or 880-900 km/h. This speed was carefully calculated to give the vehicle ample time to execute terrain avoidance/following maneuvers at sea level altitude.

Is it possible to go that low? Absolutely. Here is a Chinese example...

PLA Cruise Missiles / PLA Air - Surface Missiles

Tactically speaking, as in real world conditions, the phrase 'sea level' is casually used to includes literally surface (0) to up to 1000 meters altitude. Mach figure difference is only 20 km/h. Tactically and statistically insignificant.

Tactical response time is measured by 'horizon break', as in the moment a cruise missile appears on one horizon and disappears over the other horizon. The higher the view, visually or radar, the longer this time span, and the longer the response time. So put either the man or the radar on a tower. The taller the tower, the further the man or radar can see.

If the response mechanism, not viewer which is either man or radar, is at ground level, it have less than one second to do whatever it is supposed to do. Ground air defense is exactly that -- ground -- and it includes the viewer -- radar. So now both viewer and mechanism is at ground level.

Visual distance at ground level, as in from horizon to horizon, is about 25 km at best.

Here is the calculator for that...

Horizon calculator - radar and visual

If h1 and h2 are at 5 meters, visual and radar horizons are less than 20 km distance. Now the cruise missile is traveling at over 800 km/h to cover at best 25 km distance.

The cruise missile is 'dead meat' once detected?

don't underestimate modern qrsam. They r capable of launch missile within 10sec. Even if radar detect it from 20km, they have 80sec to react. Enough to kill.
So cruise missile either should be supersonic(low reactn time) or stealthy+agile or low cost(can launch in high no).
Concept of cruise missile is now changing around the world.

 

[gambit]

don't underestimate modern qrsam. They r capable of launch missile within 10sec. Even if radar detect it from 20km, they have 80sec to react. Enough to kill.

Horizon calculator - radar and visual

A GLCM at 100 meters altitude cruises at 800 km/h. This would be h1.

The air defense radar is on a tower at 5 meters altitude. This would be h2.

This give a radar horizon of 10 km in either direction for a total of 20 km from one horizon to the other.

Speed Distance Time Calculators

This give about 90 sec response time.

First...Radar lock is never instantaneous for air defense. There are three radars involved. The initial system is volume search. If the system is the usual 360 deg coverage, what is the rotation rate?

Engagement and Fire Control Radars (S-Band, X-band)

The 1S11 is coherent pulsed radar capable of performing 360° azimuth sweeps at 15 RPM in early variants and 20 RPM in later variants.

AN/SPS-48 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For the SPS-48 in particular, the antenna is mechanically rotated to scan azimuth but beams are electronically steered to cover elevation. The 4,500 lb (2,000 kg) antenna is capable of rotating at 7.5 or 15 rpm.

Then...What is the lag time between confirmation from volume Search to the Tracking radar?

Tracking radars must be target oriented and this lag time is the unknown quantity. Track does not perform 360 scans. The Tracking radar must reorient itself to the direction instructed (not commanded) by Search and perform rapid back-forth sweeping motions upon the target. Remember that the 20 km distance is from one horizon to the other. So when Track is queued by Search to reorient itself to acquire a target towards one horizon, it is working within that 10 km distance. Not 20 km.

The 3rd radar is called 'Targeting' and is of a higher freq with more jam resistant transmission characteristics. This is when Tracking is assured so there is no need to go into details here.

So the missile launch sequence itself begins only after Search has confirmed that the target is a valid one, queue the Tracking radar, who then must reorient itself, acquire the target as instructed, performs a few sweeps to have actual acquisition, then queue the Targeting system. All within a 10 km distance. Odds of a successful hit rapidly decrease if the target passed overhead because of those lag times. What if terrain is involved and the cruise missile exploits terrain to mask its flight?

US war planners in Desert Storm and in Yugoslavia have this kind of planning down to a science regarding which type of weapons to use against what type of targets.

Is it possible to shoot down a cruise missile? Absolutely. But is it probable, let alone assured? Less likely than most sales brochures would admit.

 

[ANPP]

Horizon calculator - radar and visual

A GLCM at 100 meters altitude cruises at 800 km/h. This would be h1.

The air defense radar is on a tower at 5 meters altitude. This would be h2.

This give a radar horizon of 10 km in either direction for a total of 20 km from one horizon to the other.

That data give me 50km radar detection range. What is that in either direction, if radar is able to detect missile in one direction from 20km than it also able to detect it from either side by 20km, no distance division.

Speed Distance Time Calculators

This give about 90 sec response time.

First...Radar lock is never instantaneous for air defense. There are three radars involved. The initial system is volume search. If the system is the usual 360 deg coverage, what is the rotation rate?

Engagement and Fire Control Radars (S-Band, X-band)


AN/SPS-48 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Only one radar at a time is not used for air defence. Combo of 2-3 radars are used which drastically increases all over detection capability. And 10rpm means 1 round per 6 second. Get it bro.

Then...What is the lag time between confirmation from volume Search to the Tracking radar?

Tracking radars must be target oriented and this lag time is the unknown quantity. Track does not perform 360 scans. The Tracking radar must reorient itself to the direction instructed (not commanded) by Search and perform rapid back-forth sweeping motions upon the target. Remember that the 20 km distance is from one horizon to the other. So when Track is queued by Search to reorient itself to acquire a target towards one horizon, it is working within that 10 km distance. Not 20 km.

The 3rd radar is called 'Targeting' and is of a higher freq with more jam resistant transmission characteristics. This is when Tracking is assured so there is no need to go into details here.

So the missile launch sequence itself begins only after Search has confirmed that the target is a valid one, queue the Tracking radar, who then must reorient itself, acquire the target as instructed, performs a few sweeps to have actual acquisition, then queue the Targeting system. All within a 10 km distance. Odds of a successful hit rapidly decrease if the target passed overhead because of those lag times. What if terrain is involved and the cruise missile exploits terrain to mask its flight?

US war planners in Desert Storm and in Yugoslavia have this kind of planning down to a science regarding which type of weapons to use against what type of targets.

Is it possible to shoot down a cruise missile? Absolutely. But is it probable, let alone assured? Less likely than most sales brochures would admit.

Lag time is insignificant in radar detection, but yes it will take few time to analyse the data( although also not significant). To do all analysis system barely took few 10s of seconds. System still have pretty much time to score (as missile could be launched with in 5sec after command in morden system). I would like to say if Radar detect it from distance of more than 20km cruise missile dont have chance.
yes at last its battle b/w SAM' & cruise missile.

 

[gambit]

That data give me 50km radar detection range. What is that in either direction, if radar is able to detect missile in one direction from 20km than it also able to detect it from either side by 20km, no distance division.

Of course there is a division because most radar systems are directional.

If a system is directional and capable of 20 km distance, assuming from ground level, then it is capable of 20 km at any direction at any time, not 40 km at any time.

Only one radar at a time is not used for air defence. Combo of 2-3 radars are used which drastically increases all over detection capability. And 10rpm means 1 round per 6 second. Get it bro.

Yes it is. You really do not understand the technical and tactical differences between 'Search', 'Track', and 'Target' sub-systems. They work not in concert but in sequence. One cue the other. I get this better than you do.

Lag time is insignificant in radar detection, but yes it will take few time to analyse the data( although also not significant). To do all analysis system barely took few 10s of seconds. System still have pretty much time to score (as missile could be launched with in 5sec after command in morden system). I would like to say if Radar detect it from distance of more than 20km cruise missile dont have chance.
yes at last its battle b/w SAM' & cruise missile.

That is absurd. Might as well say lag time between command and hydraulics in a fly-by-wire flight control system is irrelevant. You do not know what you are talking about.

 

[ANPP]

Of course there is a division because most radar systems are directional.

If a system is directional and capable of 20 km distance, assuming from ground level, then it is capable of 20 km at any direction at any time, not 40 km at any time.

All radars are directional. If radar is capable of detecting 20km in its effective aperture area, than its range indeed decreases in lobes; but radar mounted on rotating support hence given same detection range in all direction, no distance modification.
If you put your older figure in equation you will get answer as ~50km not 20km. Than You divide that 20km in 10km in either direction. I am just saying 20km in all direction.

Yes it is. You really do not understand the technical and tactical differences between 'Search', 'Track', and 'Target' sub-systems. They work not in concert but in sequence. One cue the other. I get this better than you do.

I say about search & track radars, not included target acquiring radar. In base defense, rather than main system radar, independent radars are also used. These radars are purely for saerch & track of enemy a/c near base.

& They didnt cued each other, simultaneously work with each other during TARGETING.

You lake technical as well as practical knowledge.

That is absurd. Might as well say lag time between command and hydraulics in a fly-by-wire flight control system is irrelevant. You do not know what you are talking about.

May be we are confused, about what you are saying of lag time. As you are referring lag time to interaction/communication b/w sub-systems than yes indeed I calculate it & already put it in my equations & yes that is significant.

And at the end Cruise missile can dodge SAMs but SAMs can also take it down. All is game of tactics and probability.
BUT CRUISE MISSILES ARE NOT NIGHTMARE FOR SAMs.