PARIS: France plans Alpha Jet replacement

[Gabriel92]

@Taygibay Which one would be the best in your opinion ?
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France is gearing up to replace its fleet of aged Dassault Alpha jet trainers under an initiative provisionally dubbed “Project Cognac”.

An initial pre-solicitation request was issued in April by France’s DGA procurement body and is likely to be followed by a request for proposals (RFP) in September.

Italy’s Alenia Aermacchi says it will offer its developmental M-345 jet for the nascent requirement, which will equip the French flight training school located at Cognac/Châteaubernard air base.

“We presented our candidature on 1 June. Now we are waiting for the next step which will probably be the RFP.”

Paris has an active inventory of 86 of the 1970s-era type, according to Flightglobal's Ascend Fleets database, and they are also flown by the nation's Patrouille de France aerobatic team.

Alenia is likely to face competition for the contest from Aero Vodochody’s L-39 Albatros jet, and the Beechcraft T-6 and Pilatus PC-21 turboprops.

It is developing the Williams International FJ44-4M-powered M-345 for the Italian air force, although is yet to secure a contract with the service.

First delivery of the jet, which also features Selex avionics, is scheduled for 2018.

PARIS: France plans Alpha Jet replacement - 6/16/2015 - Flight Global

 

[Taygibay]

Hum Gab mec! Hum! Not to you but to the whole affair …

First,

“Project Cognac”.

An initial pre-solicitation request was issued in April by France’s DGA procurement body and is likely to be followed by a request for proposals (RFP) in September.

the latest DGA news are that the project is pushed back by at least a yea, possibly to favor the M-345.

Second, I trust you saw the requirements … that more or less call for a real Gadjet replacement meaning
able to tke a load off the regular fleet for PO - operational posture -.

From which, here is my take.
If we want a school plane : PC 21 is unbeatable. Yes turbo prop and slower speeds but a brilliant plane.
If we want a training plane : then the M-346 is very nice, small to save op costs ( pricey to buy though ).
If and this is the present idea from Cognac requirements, we want to replace the Gadjets capacity wise
and even supplement the eventual 100% Rafale fleet at lower costs, the best options are not listed.

For training plus CAS : I'd go Scorpion from Textron. There could be French content and mods to it.
It would provide a useful support platform reminiscent of the T-6 Texan ( that Dad flew on in Algeria ).

For true fast jet training plus PO : especially considering France is not Switzerland or Belgium and we'd
need a supersonic interceptor ( PO is now done by M2000s mostly and Rafale ) One choice : FA-50!

Details go thus,
PC21 does all needed for schooling and the jump to Rafale for piloting via simulator is doable.
Downside, no real ops use save light COIN.

M346 ( not 345 mind you unless it gets redone in France to boost it ) does high end tactical training at
very near Mach with all the bells and whistles of a modern plane and the ability to CAS properly.
Downside, shared with Ru, no local development since brand new so no French content will be added.

Scorpion is a tad heavier than Gadjets and others on the list with otherwise comparable metrics and
will be a stout CAS platform. It would be easier to adapt to our needs with French stuff.
Downside, if "Frenchified" will end up costing more and further out from Mach for PO interceptions.

T/F/FA-50 is a great little jet and the only one in the lot that goes supersonic at M 1.5. It may seem like
overkill but remember that it cost the same as the 2 above, approximatively 20 M $ for the trainer ver-
sion. Yes the FA is 50% more on the price list but … as it would need French adaptation, it may end
up as a joint development venture variant or satisfy cross programs exchanges to open an Asian coo-
prat ion with not only Korea but also Indonesia ( and the Phillippines ) that bought it. The advantages in
here are real both in military terms and political ones. At low point, a T-50 with the RBE2 PESAs to be
retired from Rafale fleet and MICA fitted would be similar in base price to M-346 and Scorpion with Mach.
Best choice for PAF replacement of all of the above with its added metrics and agility.
Downside, Lock-Mart co-product, not sure if nose size allows RBE-2 and single engined.


Personally, I'd be tempted to go with the Textron bird if we stay in Gadjet metrics. If something could be
worked out with our US friends like maybe a 12 Rafale buy for aggressors squadrons? Yummy idea!
Crazy idea of the month :
T-50 fitted with M-88 ( smaller than F-404 as we know from Rafale A )! o_0 If not M-345 with heavy French
rework over M-345. If only the Novi Avion had been made, that would have been the ideal solution. Alas …

L-39 and T-6 are non-starters IMHoO.

I hope you and others will have more and different suggestions to make this a prospective aero convo.
Read you soon, Tay.

 

[Audio]

While Pilatus is undoubtedly the best prop trainer in the world, for France's needs Aermacchi is the only choice.
What aerial interception Alphajets were required to do now that their replacement must be F/A-50?

 

[Taygibay]

While Pilatus is undoubtedly the best prop trainer in the world, for France's needs Aermacchi is the only choice.
What aerial interception Alphajets were required to do now that their replacement must be F/A-50?

They weren't until now, Audio. The fact sheets for Project Cognac do mention the possible use for PO however.
In France, Operational posture defines the ability to be use at home for standard duty which is first and foremost
Air Police. This does include fast jets interception. We already have prop planes and helps that can take care of
light civilian aircrafts so that is not what is intended. As I said above, up til now, PO was done by fighters, mostly
M2000s of late but also Rafales, especially the Ms which will bear that task from ground bases when the CDG is
in mid-life refit in 2017 so they don't go inactive.

Thus, Air Police and territorial air defense under the new project require a supersonic AC, QED,
Have a good day, Tay.

 

[Audio]

They weren't until now, Audio. The fact sheets for Project Cognac do mention the possible use for PO however.
In France, Operational posture defines the ability to be use at home for standard duty which is first and foremost
Air Police. This does include fast jets interception. We already have prop planes and helps that can take care of
light civilian aircrafts so that is not what is intended. As I said above, up til now, PO was done by fighters, mostly
M2000s of late but also Rafales, especially the Ms which will bear that task from ground bases when the CDG is
in mid-life refit in 2017 so they don't go inactive.

Thus, Air Police and territorial air defense under the new project require a supersonic AC, QED,

I remain (very) sceptical in regards to selection of F/A-50.
I don't see speed as the only factor, but also the fact that M-345 can also carry a radar, a/a missiles and the politics of the deal are most likely very much skewed toward the Italians.

 

[Taygibay]

I remain (very) sceptical in regards to selection of F/A-50.

OH! I entirely agree! That was an option of mine and not of the CEMAA. The choice as of now is
between the PC-21 and the M-345 HET if you only consider approved selection candidates.

My point is that from the PC-21 to the Rafale, the step is high as was proved by the AdlA when one
pilot attempted it. In reverse, the M-345 is good but projected to cost almost as much as the M-346.
What's more, even the Italian Air Force chose to replace the JT-15 engine deemed limited. And that's
on a legacy platform which begs the question why not the other aircrafts available.
M-346, Scorpion and T-50 are all 20-21M $ so price is not the differentiating factor.

As for politics, friendship apart, Italy offers no specific advantage.
In any case, as I mentioned, the Project has been set back to 2018 at the earliest so that we are merely
conjecturing especially since the AlphaJets can last until 2030.
Who knows what the options will be by then?

Read you later, Tay.

 

[Audio]

OH! I entirely agree! That was an option of mine and not of the CEMAA. The choice as of now is
between the PC-21 and the M-345 HET if you only consider approved selection candidates.

My point is that from the PC-21 to the Rafale, the step is high as was proved by the AdlA when one
pilot attempted it. In reverse, the M-345 is good but projected to cost almost as much as the M-346.
What's more, even the Italian Air Force chose to replace the JT-15 engine deemed limited. And that's
on a legacy platform which begs the question why not the other aircrafts available.
M-346, Scorpion and T-50 are all 20-21M $ so price is not the differentiating factor.

As for politics, friendship apart, Italy offers no specific advantage.
In any case, as I mentioned, the Project has been set back to 2018 at the earliest so that we are merely
conjecturing especially since the AlphaJets can last until 2030.
Who knows what the options will be by then?

Read you later, Tay.

Shiet, i got a brain lapse.....i didn't realize M-345 is the former Siai S-211. I was thinking it's like M-346, but just a slightly earlier version....
In this light, i have to retract the statement of it carrying radar, as i am not entirely sure. And, ya, i'd go with M-346.

As for politics, friendship apart, Italy offers no specific advantage.

On this i'd disagree with no brain lapse atm (i hope)
Surely a number of joint projects by both countries probably already smoothed out the bumpy road of cooperative R&D in military high tech dvelopment.

Finmeccanica - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Click the link, it will take you to the section of wiki page dealing with joint ventures. This is the political thing i was talking about, France's own companies benefit if Finmeccanica gets the order as it brings a healthier, better partner to the table for other projects.

 

[Gufi]

Scorpion is a tad heavier than Gadjets and others on the list with otherwise comparable metrics and
will be a stout CAS platform. It would be easier to adapt to our needs with French stuff.
Downside, if "Frenchified" will end up costing more and further out from Mach for PO interceptions.

The company needs big orders to prove itself in a rapidly competitive market, and will be amiable to conditions set up France to adapt to their needs. And it is a very adaptable platform, and with diplomatic advantages with off sets expected. Plus good as an adaptable fighter like you mentioned and if that does not work out JF 17's with French engines and avionics are an option you should consider

 

[Taygibay]

and if that does not work out JF 17's with French engines and avionics are an option you should consider

You know what? If it was extrapolated in composites so lighter and serviced in France ( to avoid the Chinese Xerox scare ), the Thunder might well do. As with the T-50, either the M-88 GCP or 9T would fit with room to spare allowing for say more internal fuel.
For the rest, agreed, Textron is likely to jump at any good opportunity for an initial sale and Dassault is a long time user of the TFE731 ( Falcon 10 & 900DX ) so that in-house servicing would be a chinch.

Have a good evening, Tay.