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Pakistan's Gwadar, Karachi to be linked with China's Kashgar: PM

Narrow minded people are threat for nation, to get some economic benefits hard decision has to make so nothing impossible if you have desire with determination. For your kind information there is already feasibility report to construct track and pipeline through Khunjrab Pass. PMLN track record shows they can do what they planned. Earthquakes activity continued in every developed & under developed country but they didn't stop their work fearing from natural disasters, an example is in front of you what happened in USA last weeks so they will build it again and keep it alive so earthquakes are not the reason to set back. Just remember that Terbella and Mangla lies in 40% possible earthquakes damage zone so what you suggest shut down them?
Think from your mind but not from ankles.


so the people who talk about reality are narrow minded :omghaha: Argus Panoptes is right we couldnt clear the strategic KKH from Attabad Lake Section and Dreaming of a Rail link in same area :omghaha:

and about tarbela and mangla both are in Lush green region where mountains and the mud over mountains are controlled by the trees and grass over it while the mountains which starts from Kohistan district of KPK and ends at Khunjrab pass are some thing different dude a muddy type mountains which slides even by the vibration of passing truck and pressure horn :coffee:
 
You seem to indicate that those projects are simply for China's interest, not helping Pakistan at all.

At least, I do not think so.

In the past, we have helped a lot of countries and built tons of projects like railways, dams and etc. We do not want to be called that those projects are simply for China's interest, but in reality, it is actually for more of the interest of the local people.

I do not want our China government to be in such situation that we have paid money, labor and everything and in the end called those are for your (China) interest only.

If that is the case, we had better make sure we only work on those projects the local government recognize those projects are for their benefits as well.

Why would we cancel any projects that help China ?

China is our best friend in the World and we value this relationship more than our relationship with any other country.

China helps us achieve our National Interest and we help our Chinese Brothers achieve their National Goals and Interests.

This a relationship that serves both our mutual interests.
 
You seem to indicate that those projects are simply for China's interest, not helping Pakistan at all.

At least, I do not think so.

In the past, we have helped a lot of countries and built tons of projects like railways, dams and etc. We do not want to be called that those projects are simply for China's interest, but in reality, it is actually for more of the interest of the local people.

I do not want our China government to be in such situation that we have paid money, labor and everything and in the end called those are for your (China) interest only.

If that is the case, we had better make sure we only work on those projects the local government recognize those projects are for their benefits as well.




I think you are confused.

The point I was making earlier was that no Nation does anything for any other country out of the goodness of their heart.

That is also true for China. China's actions are guided by China's own National Interest.

Are you really that NAIVE that you believe China does something just for altruistic reasons without consideration of a quid pro quo benefits or against their National Interest ?

For Example China has started a lot of development projects in African Countries where China wants to develop relationship so that they can import minerals or other resources from those countries.

This is why only those projects are started and supported by two Nations, that are IN THE MUTUAL INTEREST OF TWO NATIONS.

If you are incapable of understanding this logic , then I am not sure any further discussion with you would be fruitful because in that case I am may be discussing with a person with an immature mind.
 
A peeli taxi with CNG kit CNG is not available and Petrol not affordable :omghaha: he could have given soft loan instead of giving a JUNK type cars as peeli taxi

CNG still available so there is no issue at this moment. You have no vision about people's problems and how they earn, in this crucial economic period these junks helps people a lot to live. Do some research rather than showing amnesia.
 
so the people who talk about reality are narrow minded :omghaha: Argus Panoptes is right we couldnt clear the strategic KKH from Attabad Lake Section and Dreaming of a Rail link in same area :omghaha:

and about tarbela and mangla both are in Lush green region where mountains and the mud over mountains are controlled by the trees and grass over it while the mountains which starts from Kohistan district of KPK and ends at Khunjrab pass are some thing different dude a muddy type mountains which slides even by the vibration of passing truck and pressure horn :coffee:


Attaabad Lake is minor issue than this mega project so once it started it will cover that issue too. Ask this to incompetent previous government which has to rebuild it, btw now this lack could be served as reservoir moreover project of Bhasha Dam also in that rout before Chilas . Now This one project may solve many other issues.

Probably you have no idea of geology and fault line in Pakistan and damage zones. Read it and then come to talk with me.
 
Well, it is true nation does thing out of consideration for her own interest at first.

However, there is indeed a nation that historically did things for other nations with a lot of altruistic reasons. Thinking about most things we have done for those other countries back in the Mao's era??? Most of them are for altruistic reasons with the benefits millions of our own Chinese were starved to death.

So do not tell me that China have not done so enough.

Even today, we may do more projects out of our own consideration than in the past, however, we still do quite a few more altruistic projects for other nations as well, let alone for Pakistan considering the special relationship. As for the port, after we are done, Pakistan will be left with a fully developed commercial port. How about China? Well, if the relationship is good, we may be allowed to use it. However, if there is some problem, it is up to Pakistan's government to cancel the contract and let China go. Considering all of the risks, you think that is such a good project for China to develop still.

I hate people say China does this or that simply for her own interest even though such interest is just so far far away and is also so risky to even have it in the future. Such people just do not appreciate what Chinese people have done for them and do not even understand how different China has done for his country vs. those others had done in the past.



As for what China has done for Africa, I suppose that has been the best any other countries have done for those African countries for the past century. China does not force them to do anything and we simply trade. When Chinese left, we left them with expertise in a lot of areas, roads, infrastructures and that can be used for decades to come. What more can they ask from China then? We do not point a gun to their head to tell them to do this or that. We do not interfere their internal affairs either.

I think you are confused.

The point I was making earlier was that no Nation does anything for any other country out of the goodness of their heart.

That is also true for China. China's actions are guided by China's own National Interest.

Are you really that NAIVE that you believe China does something just for altruistic reasons without consideration of a quid pro quo benefits or against their National Interest ?

For Example China has started a lot of development projects in African Countries where China wants to develop relationship so that they can import minerals or other resources from those countries.

This is why only those projects are started and supported by two Nations, that are IN THE MUTUAL INTEREST OF TWO NATIONS.

If you are incapable of understanding this logic , then I am not sure any further discussion with you would be fruitful because in that case I am may be discussing with a person with an immature mind.
 
Well, it is true nation does thing out of consideration for her own interest at first.

However, there is indeed a nation that historically did things for other nations with a lot of altruistic reasons. Thinking about most things we have done for those other countries back in the Mao's era??? Most of them are for altruistic reasons with the benefits millions of our own Chinese were starved to death.

So do not tell me that China have not done so enough.

Even today, we may do more projects out of our own consideration than in the past, however, we still do quite a few more altruistic projects for other nations as well, let alone for Pakistan considering the special relationship. As for the port, after we are done, Pakistan will be left with a fully developed commercial port. How about China? Well, if the relationship is good, we may be allowed to use it. However, if there is some problem, it is up to Pakistan's government to cancel the contract and let China go. Considering all of the risks, you think that is such a good project for China to develop still.

I hate people say China does this or that simply for her own interest even though such interest is just so far far away and is also so risky to even have it in the future. Such people just do not appreciate what Chinese people have done for them and do not even understand how different China has done for his country vs. those others had done in the past.



As for what China has done for Africa, I suppose that has been the best any other countries have done for those African countries for the past century. China does not force them to do anything and we simply trade. When Chinese left, we left them with expertise in a lot of areas, roads, infrastructures and that can be used for decades to come. What more can they ask from China then? We do not point a gun to their head to tell them to do this or that. We do not interfere their internal affairs either.




I agree with what you have said and also it is a fact that China-Pakistan Relationship is a very Special Relationship which has matured over 6 decades and has now gone into a Strategic Mode. China-Pakistan Strategic Relationship has solidified because our Strategic National Interest have coincided greatly. Both Nations value this Special Relationship and continue to strengthen this Strategic Partnership.

I think you read something in my earlier posts that was never intended. All I was trying to say was Nations build relationships based on STRATEGIC NATIONAL INTEREST and not ALTRUISM. Such relationships are always longer lasting and durable as long as the mutual Strategic National Interest remain aligned. That is a logical statement and should not cause offence to anyone.

Please understand that over last 60+ years we Pakistanis have been raised with a positive image of China. Over 90% of Pakistanis have a positive view of China which btw is the highest in the World. That simply means no other Nation in the World views China more positively than Pakistanis. A common Pakistani considers China Pakistan's best Friend.
 
What you said is true about those consideration of self interest.

What I said is also true is that China has done tons of altruistic projects in many countries including east asia (North Korea), South east Asia (Vietnam), many African countries...

What I hate to say is that there are tons of bastards from those countries who benefit from China's help but later on attack China. That is why I am saying the so-called interest or benefit on those projects China has built for many countries now is really far-fetched. The benefits for local countries are for sure but the benefits for China is up to the later governments of those other countries. Those analysts who bring out fanfare saying China control this/that is really exaggerating what it really is factually.

That is also the reason I do not believe throwing bills/cancelling loans to those african countries can really bring any real friendships with China at all.

Just look at how Ghana treats our workers there in the recent week. You call that appreciation of China's help???

I agree with what you have said and also it is a fact that China-Pakistan Relationship is a very Special Relationship which has matured over 6 decades and has now gone into a Strategic Mode. China-Pakistan Strategic Relationship has solidified because our Strategic National Interest have coincided greatly. Both Nations value this Special Relationship and continue to strengthen this Strategic Partnership.

I think you read something in my earlier posts that was never intended. All I was trying to say was Nations build relationships based on STRATEGIC NATIONAL INTEREST and not ALTRUISM. Such relationships are always longer lasting and durable as long as the mutual Strategic National Interest remain aligned. That is a logical statement and should not cause offence to anyone.

Please understand that over last 60+ years we Pakistanis have been raised with a positive image of China. Over 90% of Pakistanis have a positive view of China which btw is the highest in the World. That simply means no other Nation in the World views China more positively than Pakistanis. A common Pakistani considers China Pakistan's best Friend.
 
I agree.
What you said is true. This is called Win-Win in China. For military, China can realize a faster and better military action if there is a war between India.
in addition, China will build the railway not only to Pakistan but also the Middle Asian countries. This is a strategical plan in both economic and military.
 
So how can Gawadar be important in future transport routes? With high speed rail connections to Europe and beyond, what good would our KKH do for international trade, except for us only?

A Silkrailroad, Made For Cars | The Truth About Cars

A Silkrailroad, Made For Cars

By Bertel Schmitt on June 11, 2013

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If and when China’s car export machine ever gets going in earnest, the city of Chongqing in Western China could become one of its main export hubs. Chongqing is not a sea port. It is the far eastern terminus of a 7,000 mile railroad line that connects Chongqing with Duisburg in Germany.

Train-Nikkei-Pocture-courtesy-Nikkei.com_1-550x489.gif


Currently, the train brings auto parts to China. “A freight train carrying 41 containers full of autoparts arrived in Chongqing in mid-March, sent by U.S. automaker Ford Motor Co. and marking the first direct shipment from Germany by rail,” writes The Nikkei [sub]. BMW, “has been shipping parts mainly by rail, rather than by sea, since its second plant began operating in May last year,” says the Tokyo paper. When trains go from China to Germany, they currently bring mostly notebooks. A freight train can carry about 80,000 units.

By boat to China, the trip would take between 50-60 days, all told, says the paper. By train, it takes two weeks. Railways costs are 70-80 percent higher than sea freight, but time is money. There are plans in China to connect to Europe via high speed rail. This would cut the time down to two days.

The transcontinental rail freight service was launched in 2011 on an experimental basis. Now, one train loaded with 40 containers leaves Germany for China every day.
 
This is an interesting article, given that Gawadar gets only a small mention and the image showing global shipping traffic indicates where most of the commerce goes:

China

China’s foreign ports
The new masters and commanders

China’s growing empire of ports abroad is mainly about trade, not aggression
Jun 8th 2013 | COLOMBO |From the print edition

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FROM the ground, Colombo’s port does not look like much. Those entering it are greeted by wire fences, walls dating back to colonial times and security posts. For mariners leaving the port after lonely nights on the high seas, the delights of the B52 Night Club and Stallion Pub lie a stumble away. But viewed from high up in one of the growing number of skyscrapers in Sri Lanka’s capital, it is clear that something extraordinary is happening: China is creating a shipping hub just 200 miles from India’s southern tip.

The old port is cramped and stuffed full of containers. To its left, a vast new breakwater curves into the ocean. Alongside it a Chinese ship has just delivered three giant Chinese cranes (see picture) to a new container terminal built by a Chinese company and run by an entity controlled by another Chinese firm. The terminal opens in July and will be complete in April 2014. The old port took centuries to reach its present capacity. China will have almost doubled it in under 30 months. Operated at full capacity, it would make Colombo one of the world’s 20 biggest container ports.

This development has split opinion in Sri Lanka. At a gathering of Colombo’s old salts, the mood is optimistic. Tales of Chinese domination are “just scaremongering” says one captain. The port will push Colombo into the big league, says the boss of a repair yard. A few are nervous, though. The Chinese have a hidden agenda, says someone close to the ports authority.

For India’s hawks, there is no ambiguity. The port is part of a Chinese plot. Colombo is a “transhipment” hub for India: big ships unload containers there and feeder boats take these to India’s often crummy ports. About 13% of India’s container traffic travels via Colombo. If the new terminal ran at full capacity and dedicated itself to transhipping containers to India, that could rise to 28%, leaving the country dependent on a foreign-run choke point.

Worse, critics argue, Sri Lanka has become ever chummier with China since the end of its civil war in 2009. On May 29th Mahinda Rajapaksa, Sri Lanka’s president, met Li Keqiang, China’s premier, in Beijing. Loans and declarations of “profound friendship” were secured. China is also developing roads, airports and another port, Hambantota, on Sri Lanka’s south coast. Chinese warships have stopped at Colombo on the way to Pakistan and to anti-pirate operations in the Gulf of Aden.

In the eyes of some Indians, Colombo is part of a “string of pearls”—an American-coined phrase that suggests the deliberate construction of a network of Chinese built, owned or influenced ports that could threaten India. These include a facility in Gwadar and a port in Karachi (both in Pakistan); a container facility in Chittagong (Bangladesh); and ports in Myanmar.

Is this string theory convincing? Even if the policy exists, it might not work. Were China able to somehow turn ports into naval bases, it might struggle to keep control of a series of Gibraltars so far from home. And host countries have mood swings. Since Myanmar opened up in 2012, China’s influence there has decreased. China love-bombed the Seychelles and Mauritius with presidential visits in 2007 and 2009 respectively. But since then India has successfully buttered up these island states and reasserted its role in the Maldives. Besides, China’s main motive may be commerce. C. Raja Mohan, the author of “Samudra Manthan”, a book on Sino-Indian rivalry in the Indian and Pacific Oceans, argues that China’s port bases partly reflect a desire to get easier sea access for trade to and from west China.

A load of old rope

State-owned firms are in charge of most of China’s maritime activity, and their motives are at least partly commercial. There is certainly not much talk of invading India in the offices of Tissa Wickramasinghe, the general manager of CICT, the firm that runs Colombo’s new terminal. It is 85% owned by China Merchants Holdings International, a Hong Kong firm that is ultimately controlled by China’s government.

Mr Wickramasinghe says the port aims to take advantage of a new global pattern of trade. Trade by poor countries will rise. More containers will be used (only 22% of Indian cargo is containerised—half the world average). The shipping corridors between East Asia, Europe and Africa will get even busier. A new generation of huge ships that are almost half a kilometre long will dominate them. The ports that service these vessels will prosper.

China’s maritime interests already reflect its status as the world’s largest exporter and second-largest importer. Many of the world’s biggest container ports are in China. It controls a fifth of the world’s container fleet mainly through giant state-owned lines. By weight, 41% of ships built in 2012 were made in China.

Japanese and Korean firms built a presence in Californian ports in the 1980s and 1990s. Now China’s muscle in trade and shipping is being mirrored in ports too. At first this was about building. China Harbour Engineering Company has constructed projects around the world. In 2012 its state-controlled parent firm had orders of $12 billion for construction deals abroad.

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The next step is to own and run ports (see map). Hutchison Whampoa, a buccaneering, privately owned Hong Kong conglomerate, has long had a global network of ports. The pioneer among mainland firms was Cosco Pacific, an affiliate of state-owned Cosco, China’s biggest shipping line. In 2003-07 it took minority stakes in terminals in Antwerp, Suez and Singapore. In 2009 it took charge of half of Piraeus Port in Greece. It has invested about $1 billion abroad. China Merchants Holdings International, a newcomer, has spent double that. It invested in Nigeria, as well as Colombo, in 2010. Last year it took stakes in ports in Togo and Djibouti. In January it bought 49% of Terminal Link, a global portfolio of terminals run by CMA CGM, an indebted French container line.

The pace is quickening. In March another firm, China Shipping Terminal, bought a stake in a terminal in Zeebrugge in Belgium. On May 30th China Merchants struck a multi-billion deal to create a port in Tanzania. Even the more cautious Cosco Pacific is thinking about deals in South-East Asia and investing more in Greece.

What explains this surge in investment? The slowdown in trade has dulled prospects in China and lowered prices abroad from the heights of 2007-08, says Jonathan Beard of ICF GHK, a consultancy. The focus on Asia, Europe and Africa is partly because America may be out of bounds. China Shipping Terminal has small stakes in facilities in Seattle and Los Angeles, according to Drewry, a consultancy. But the experience of Dubai’s DP World suggests that America would not roll out a red carpet. In 2006 DP abandoned plans to buy American ports after a political backlash. Some Americans worry that China wants to take over the Panama canal.

Chinese firms may also subscribe to a supersized vision of the industry in which an elite group of ports caters to a new generation of mega-vessels. These will be more fuel-efficient and link Asia and Europe (they can just squeeze through the Suez Canal). After a decade of hype these behemoths are now afloat. In May CMA CGM received the Jules Verne, the world’s largest container ship. It can handle 16,000 containers and has a 16-metre (52-feet) draft. In July Maersk, a Danish line, will launch an 18,000-container monster. It has ordered 20 from Daewoo, in Korea. China Shipping Container Lines, the country’s second biggest firm, has just ordered five 18,400-container vessels from Hyundai.

Some ports may struggle to cater to these ships. Some of China’s new terminals may try to exploit that. Cosco Pacific is building a dock at Piraeus that can handle mega-ships. Colombo is deep enough for ships with an 18-metre draft. Its cranes can cope with ships 24 containers wide. Nothing in India compares with that.

Darling can’t you hear me, SOS

There are risks to China’s port strategy. The world economy may not recover quickly. Today’s slow growth lowers demand for containers. It also means many shipping lines are losing money, making them nervous about raising capacity by launching lots of new mega-ships. That in turn allows smaller ports to stay competitive.

The immediate outlook is tough for Colombo’s new terminal, in part because of India’s woes. India’s container traffic, having grown at a blistering pace, declined by 4% in April compared with the same month last year. “We never imagined this situation,” says an Indian port boss. Then there is competition. Vallarpadam, a port in the Indian state of Kerala owned by DP World, is only a third full. India’s bureaucrats have relaxed their fiddly rules to help it compete. Ports in Mumbai and Mundra, in west India, already get lots of direct calls from global lines. Other ports such as Chennai are slowly winning more, too.

The age of the mega-ship might secure Colombo’s position, but it is some way off. The initial schedules for the new Maersk and CMA CGM vessels do not include stops in Colombo. Local agents hope other lines will try the port this year. Some expect that patriotic Chinese shipping lines will shift their business to Colombo from other big Asian ports. But that is a stretch. They are losing money and may not want to subsidise Sri Lanka. In 2012 Aitken Spence, a local firm, sold its stake in Colombo’s new terminal, arguing that it was not profitable. Some reckon it will take 15 years for it to break even.

Yet the port industry is about strong nerves. Eventually a recovery will materialise. In fact, the long-term challenge for China’s port operators may be commercial success. If they do create hubs for other countries, these firms’ association—unfairly, or otherwise—with China’s strategic interests will be a liability. Colombo is an example. India’s security grumbles are partly posturing. China is its biggest trading partner, and India’s main state-owned shipping firm gets its vessels repaired in China. But should Sri Lanka ever succeed in dominating India’s trade while being a close Chinese ally, India would surely improve its ports enough to be independent.

Experiences elsewhere offer no clear-cut guide. After political tensions in the South China Sea, China Merchants has withdrawn from a port project in Vietnam. But Cosco’s Piraeus investment, once controversial, is a success, with profits rising and the firm winning plaudits for investing and creating jobs for Greeks.

China’s port strategy is mainly motivated by commercial impulses. It is natural that a country of its clout has a global shipping and ports industry. But it could become a flashpoint for diplomatic tensions. That is the pessimistic view. The optimistic one is that the more it invests, the more incentive China has to rub along better with its trading partners. This, not deliberate expansionism, is what the locals are betting on in Colombo.

From the print edition: International
 
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