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Pakistani stocks breach 33,000 mark

@jamahir ... so you dont disagree with people buying share(equity) of your company .. as investment.. do you?

the company ( not-for-profit ) will be internally arranged as a equal partnership... computer design is a profitable field but the project is political as well, so the income will not come through external people buying shares.

presently, the group needs some lakhs to produce a prototype... but once that is demonstrated, i am confident on getting some big money to produce some pilot prototypes... i mean, the first batch of product in limited quantity... and that can be sustained because i am fully confident of the uniqueness of the project.

and i don't want the company to be driven by the whims of consumers.

so there is no need to put the company on stock markets.
 
the company ( not-for-profit ) will be internally arranged as a equal partnership... computer design is a profitable field but the project is political as well, so the income will not come through external people buying shares.

presently, the group needs some lakhs to produce a prototype... but once that is demonstrated, i am confident on getting some big money to produce some pilot prototypes... i mean, the first batch of product in limited quantity... and that can be sustained because i am fully confident of the uniqueness of the project.

and i don't want the company to be driven by the whims of consumers.

so there is no need to put the company on stock markets.
when I say your I mean.. in general.. not 'your' company as such.. you are not averse to people selling part of their share to other, right?
 
is not stock/share a more sharia compliant financial tool

I know someone who's a VP in an International bank. They were discussing offering this "Sharia Compliant Financing" in certain countries. After learning the mechanics of it, I found out, its the SAME thing as the Interest based system. The only difference is, they call Interest "Riba" or something of a similar nature. And that's it.

Remember, if you look around at ANY Islamic country, everyone runs on a Capitalist interest based system (unless someone is self sufficient and not needing loans, etc), which is like 2-3 Muslim countries.
 
when I say your I mean.. in general.. not 'your' company as such.. you are not averse to people selling part of their share to other, right?

of course i am averse, that is what i meant in post# 14... not minding others selling shares is like not minding others selling drugs.

I know someone who's a VP in an International bank. They were discussing offering this "Sharia Compliant Financing" in certain countries. After learning the mechanics of it, I found out, its the SAME thing as the Interest based system. The only difference is, they call Interest "Riba" or something of a similar nature. And that's it.

exactly... that is what i said in post# 14.

Remember, if you look around at ANY Islamic country, everyone runs on a Capitalist interest based system

there was one muslim nation which did not internally run on capitalism... libyan jamahiriya.
 
of course i am averse, that is what i meant in post# 14... not minding others selling shares is like not minding others selling drugs.



exactly... that is what i said in post# 14.



there was one muslim nation which did not internally run on capitalism... libyan jamahiriya.
so if I am an enterprenure, and I dont have enough money for my dream company.. I will have to wait till I get old and have enough money to make it reality... the situation could be completely different then..
The only option is to get money from relatives/friends.. which is not ideal in many cases.
 
please look my above post.
The second part of your post here is answered by yourself
actual islami finance is not about finance for the sake of finance... it is about co-operative business... a person seeking a loan will allow a financier to hold a percentage of partnership in the project or company of the loan seeker... the financier will risk his money and the loan seeker will promise profits to the financier according to the deal they made in mutual agreement.
The stock signifies the same i.e. the holder is the partner in business to the extent of shares held. A shareholder lends his money to the business managers sharing all the risks. Mind you the shareholders are only entitled to the residual claims on the business i.e. the leftover -if any- after paying off all the obligations. That's precisely why Return on equity is usually higher than return on debt because equity carries greatest of credit risks in the business.
the above is decentralized, private, law-protected agreement and will more precisely look at sharia-compliance.
a stock market is centralized, chaotic and ends up becoming a place where money is made from money, where every company tries to rise on the rate chart by hook and crook... two crimes rise from it...
Well one should argue is being centralized and more organized is better or not? Suppose you're a partner in a business and for some reasons you want to get out and wind up your holdings. In a decentralized market, you would be facing a similar situation as that of people in the age of barter trade i.e. finding a suitable buyer for the product having exact need. In the absence of the buyer you would either be able to liquidate your holding by liquidating the business or by selling at a price which you wouldn't know be fair or not. Plus if you want to transfer your money to a more lucrative business, you wouldn't be able to do that in a decentralized market as the person running those business may not have any need to admit you as a partner. Stock market provides a) not only the ability to off load business ownership at a fair and determinable market price b)Transfer of ownership to another business in almost a cost-less manner. The players in stock markets are primarily the buyers and sellers of stakes in business before being considered as speculators etc etc.
 
so if I am an enterprenure, and I dont have enough money for my dream company.. I will have to wait till I get old and have enough money to make it reality... the situation could be completely different then..
The only option is to get money from relatives/friends.. which is not ideal in many cases.

generalizing that situation, it becomes a political problem.

the bad situation you describe arises because your example society's political system has a wrong economic system that does not encourage ( and fund ) entrepreneurship and innovation... being an entrepreneur means dedicating time to your project and ideas, and that mostly means not doing a job at all or leaving a job.

so, you have two things here... (a). sustaining yourself, (b). funding your projects.

your example society's banks give business loans to those who show income tax submission receipts for the last one year, and they give personal loans for those who show constant income receipts ( salary slips ) for the last eight months... but when you don't have a ( income-making ) company already, how can you show income tax receipts... and when you are not in job, how can you show constant salary receipts... either way, you are not getting loan from banks.

even if you got a loan from a bank or private lender, you would have to repay some loan amount every month, with interest added... this because of your capitalist society... but since your project won't generate income for the ten months, how will you repay any money every month??

one can go in for partnership at such early stage of a project but that is traditionally rare to achieve, especially in case of india.

modern western societies, especially usa, have the system of venture capitalism... but that is complicated again.

solution specific to current situation

isn't the easiest solution, the government giving every valid entrepreneur some initial funding ( seed funding ) with minimal conditions, and with no interest added because the economic system has abolished interests??

that was the system in the libyan jamahiriya... the basic banking system would give the entrepreneur 20,000 usa dollars as seed funding... this was in addition to the extreme economic comfort that the citizens lived in.

in most cases, that amount of money can fully or partially fund a prototype so that its demonstration can bring in more money to further develop the project... in remaining cases, the socialist economic system in libya made it possible to potentially allow meeting of the entrepreneur with a private citizen financier or perhaps a government department itself.

problem solved, yes??

The stock signifies the same i.e. the holder is the partner in business to the extent of shares held. A shareholder lends his money to the business managers sharing all the risks. Mind you the shareholders are only entitled to the residual claims on the business i.e. the leftover -if any- after paying off all the obligations.

understood.

Thats by Return on equity is usually higher than return on debt because equity carries greatest of credit risks in the business.

didn't understand this part... see how it becomes complicated in method and terminology.

Well one should argue is being centralized and more organized is better or not? Suppose you're a partner in a business and for some reasons you want to get out and wind up your holdings. In a decentralized market, you would be facing a similar situation as that of people in the age of barter trade i.e. finding a suitable buyer for the product having exact need. In the absence of the buyer you would either be able to liquidate your holding by liquidating the business or by selling at a price which you wouldn't know be fair or not. Plus if you want to transfer your money to a more lucrative business, you wouldn't be able to do that in a decentralized market as the person running those business may not have any need to admit you as a partner.

the solution you are talking of is a centralized registry... and it has nothing to do with stocks and shares... in the modern age, the registry is as simple as a website.

Stock market provides a) not only the ability to off load business ownership at a fair and determinable market price b)Transfer of ownership to another business in almost a cost-less manner. The players in stock markets are primarily the buyers and sellers of stakes in business before being considered as speculators etc etc.

tell me, how many companies offload their assets or divisions in stock markets... such a thing comes under "business acquisitions and mergers", again nothing to do with stock prices... the buyer becomes here a interested financier or another company... why should such a buyer look at the fake, ever-changing, unscientific method of scanning stock quotes when he should look at what those assets or divisions are.

but like i said in my earlier post, the best and simplest economic system is no economic system, the money system having been abolished, and the political system having become a socialist one.

do remember, i am not talking of barter system, because barter is also currency... no money means no currency system of any form.

the only true exchange value for goods is the taker ( purchaser ) having contributed to society... the socialist credos "one who produces, must consume" and "by each according to his capacity, to each according to his need".
 
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generalizing that situation, it becomes a political problem.

the bad situation you describe arises because your example society's political system has a wrong economic system that does not encourage ( and fund ) entrepreneurship and innovation... being an entrepreneur means dedicating time to your project and ideas, and that mostly means not doing a job at all or leaving a job.

so, you have two things here... (a). sustaining yourself, (b). funding your projects.

your example society's banks give business loans to those who show income tax submission receipts for the last one year, and they give personal loans for those who show constant income receipts ( salary slips ) for the last eight months... but when you don't have a ( income-making ) company already, how can you show income tax receipts... and when you are not in job, how can you show constant salary receipts... either way, you are not getting loan from banks.

even if you got a loan from a bank or private lender, you would have to repay some loan amount every month, with interest added... this because of your capitalist society... but since your project won't generate income for the ten months, how will you repay any money every month??

one can go in for partnership at such early stage of a project but that is traditionally rare to achieve, especially in case of india.

modern western societies, especially usa, have the system of venture capitalism... but that is complicated again.

solution specific to current situation

isn't the easiest solution, the government giving every valid entrepreneur some initial funding ( seed funding ) with minimal conditions, and with no interest added because the economic system has abolished interests??

that was the system in the libyan jamahiriya... the basic banking system would give the entrepreneur 20,000 usa dollars as seed funding... this was in addition to the extreme economic comfort that the citizens lived in.

in most cases, that amount of money can fully or partially fund a prototype so that its demonstration can bring in more money to further develop the project... in remaining cases, the socialist economic system in libya made it possible to potentially allow meeting of the entrepreneur with a private citizen financier or perhaps a government department itself.

problem solved, yes??



understood.



didn't understand this part... see how it becomes complicated in method and terminology.



the solution you are talking of is a centralized registry... and it has nothing to do with stocks and shares... in the modern age, the registry is as simple as a website.



tell me, how many companies offload their assets or divisions in stock markets... such a thing comes under "business acquisitions and mergers", again nothing to do with stock prices... the buyer becomes here a interested financier or another company... why should such a buyer look at the fake, ever-changing, unscientific method of scanning stock quotes when he should look at what those assets or divisions are.

but like i said in my earlier post, the best and simplest economic system is no economic system, the money system having been abolished, and the political system having become a socialist one.

do remember, i am not talking of barter system, because barter is also currency... no money means no currency system of any form.

the only true exchange value for goods is the taker ( purchaser ) having contributed to society... the socialist credos "one who produces, must consume" and "by each according to his capacity, to each according to his need".
the problem with taxpayers sharing risk/reward of an enterprenure is.. it can encourage high risk activity.. who will judge whether my idea is sound or not.. 'ministry of enterprenures' .. with an army of beurocrats? it did not work elsewhere why will it work in this instance.
Also will govt have enough money to support all enterprenures?

This is not generalization, this is what will hit you first when you live in a country without much support system like banking...
 
the problem with taxpayers sharing risk/reward of an enterprenure is.. it can encourage high risk activity..

income tax... income tax or any other tax on individual citizens should be abolished... i never saw the point of income tax, especially in non-developed countries... also things like electricity, water and housing should be free... what else is the government for, if not for taking care of citizens' needs??

risky business... societies develop when risks are taken by entrepreneurs or innovators... for example, spacex company is risky business, but spacex one of the leaders now in leo spaceship design, will be one of humanity's leaders in near future... consider india, where most people don't take risks but follow the traditional course of school/college/job/marriage/children/school/college... consider now the bombay film industry, which is risky business, because it is unknown if a film will succeed or sink... consider whether this industry could have been created in today's time in very non-risk-taking india.

if michael faraday wouldn't have risked his efforts, we would not have been using electric machines, especially the internet.

it is natural and common sense to encourage, support and reward entrepreneurs.

who will judge whether my idea is sound or not.. 'ministry of enterprenures' .. with an army of beurocrats? it did not work elsewhere why will it work in this instance.

even if the political system is not hardcore socialist, it takes just common sense to reject ideas like a burqa factory or a dog clothing fashion line.

if the political system is decentralized socialist direct-democracy, it will not take an army of bureaucrats... the system is understood by all because they directly participate in its running.

so why shouldn't it work??

Also will govt have enough money to support all enterprenures?

i ask this... why should a government spend ten billion dollars on buying foreign weaponary when its political system is not worth defending but needs to be replaced.

money saved from there can be used to support entrepreneurs and other necessary things like hospitals in every locality.

money will be there, just that it needs to be redirected.

This is not generalization, this is what will hit you first when you live in a country without much support system like banking...

why should a bank exist for any other reason than being a accounts holder for citizens' money and for lending loan for legitimate needs without interest calculations??

further, in a proper system, the bank account of a citizen becomes a place for the government to deposit some support money ( welfare ) that is the right of every citizen there.
 
income tax... income tax or any other tax on individual citizens should be abolished... i never saw the point of income tax, especially in non-developed countries... also things like electricity, water and housing should be free... what else is the government for, if not for taking care of citizens' needs??

risky business... societies develop when risks are taken by entrepreneurs or innovators... for example, spacex company is risky business, but spacex one of the leaders now in leo spaceship design, will be one of humanity's leaders in near future... consider india, where most people don't take risks but follow the traditional course of school/college/job/marriage/children/school/college... consider now the bombay film industry, which is risky business, because it is unknown if a film will succeed or sink... consider whether this industry could have been created in today's time in very non-risk-taking india.

if michael faraday wouldn't have risked his efforts, we would not have been using electric machines, especially the internet.

it is natural and common sense to encourage, support and reward entrepreneurs.



even if the political system is not hardcore socialist, it takes just common sense to reject ideas like a burqa factory or a dog clothing fashion line.

if the political system is decentralized socialist direct-democracy, it will not take an army of bureaucrats... the system is understood by all because they directly participate in its running.

so why shouldn't it work??



i ask this... why should a government spend ten billion dollars on buying foreign weaponary when its political system is not worth defending but needs to be replaced.

money saved from there can be used to support entrepreneurs and other necessary things like hospitals in every locality.

money will be there, just that it needs to be redirected.



why should a bank exist for any other reason than being a accounts holder for citizens' money and for lending loan for legitimate needs without interest calculations??

further, in a proper system, the bank account of a citizen becomes a place for the government to deposit some support money ( welfare ) that is the right of every citizen there.
the crux of my argument remains..
1. govt sharing the risk of 'all' enterprenures of country encourages unnecessary risk taking
2. Only govt deciding which is 'sound' business plan can kill genuine enterprenureship.. btw why is spacex better idea than dog clothing line.. I believe its the other way around and only way to test is marketplace
3. Govt can never have enough money to support all enterprenures with sound business plan

So I dont understand why private money should be stopped from supporting enterprenures.
 
the crux of my argument remains..

1. govt sharing the risk of 'all' enterprenures of country encourages unnecessary risk taking

but taking risks is what forwards progress.

the latest company india to remove thousands of people is tcs, the software division of tata group... tcs is removing people because it is not a risk-taking company... it is not spacex or even microsoft... tcs depended on foreign contracts for what has been the traditional indian field... labor work... but which is no longer coming due to changes in western economy, especially usa economy.

2. Only govt deciding which is 'sound' business plan can kill genuine enterprenureship.. btw why is spacex better idea than dog clothing line.. I believe its the other way around and only way to test is marketplace

1. the marketplace operates on the faulty concept of "supply and demand"... like i said in one of my previous posts, any wrong thing or useless thing can be in demand, because of the customers not thinking correctly.

2. dogs are dangerous... they kill cats and people... any society where cats are not respected is a society not worthy of respect... between 2007 and 2011, thousands of people in bangalore were attacked by dogs and some killed by dogs, yet bangalore is a mentally retarded place where dogs are still respected... many people don't have clear minds in bangalore therefore no spacex will come out of bangalore.

3. it is big ideas which forward the progress of humanity, not the traditional and boring offices.

4. i am not saying that only government should decide what is right and wrong... if the political system is based on common sense and is decentralized, then all elements in such a society are in position to judge what is a sound business plan and what is wrong or frivolous or unnecessary.

3. Govt can never have enough money to support all enterprenures with sound business plan

refer previous four points.

So I dont understand why private money should be stopped from supporting enterprenures.

private money can, but it should be within a socialist economy which doesn't impose interest-upon-loans or pressure to enter stock markets or trying to please the lowest common denominator among customers.

---------------

but i will again say that the best economic system is one without economy... a money-less system.
 
but taking risks is what forwards progress.

the latest company india to remove thousands of people is tcs, the software division of tata group... tcs is removing people because it is not a risk-taking company... it is not spacex or even microsoft... tcs depended on foreign contracts for what has been the traditional indian field... labor work... but which is no longer coming due to changes in western economy, especially usa economy.



1. the marketplace operates on the faulty concept of "supply and demand"... like i said in one of my previous posts, any wrong thing or useless thing can be in demand, because of the customers not thinking correctly.

2. dogs are dangerous... they kill cats and people... any society where cats are not respected is a society not worthy of respect... between 2007 and 2011, thousands of people in bangalore were attacked by dogs and some killed by dogs, yet bangalore is a mentally retarded place where dogs are still respected... many people don't have clear minds in bangalore therefore no spacex will come out of bangalore.

3. it is big ideas which forward the progress of humanity, not the traditional and boring offices.

4. i am not saying that only government should decide what is right and wrong... if the political system is based on common sense and is decentralized, then all elements in such a society are in position to judge what is a sound business plan and what is wrong or frivolous or unnecessary.



refer previous four points.



private money can, but it should be within a socialist economy which doesn't impose interest-upon-loans or pressure to enter stock markets or trying to please the lowest common denominator among customers.

---------------

but i will again say that the best economic system is one without economy... a money-less system.
I do not have problem with taking risk, but the person who takes risk is adequately rewarded when he is successful.
By forcing govt to share your risk, you encourage unsound business ideas. However the enterprenures with good ideas can feel pressurized to sell their equity for cheap because they got only once buyer.
Also remember govt cannot detect next brilliant idea. Not even the expert PE can detect the next big idea. By having multiple source of funding an enterprenure has better chance of making his idea a reality.
In your system, its either babus in 'Ministry of enterprenures' like it, or you got nothing. No second chance, not even from a guy with money.
Also public dont decide in your scheme, selected few babus decide. Public vote only in market place with their money. Its the cheapest way to find out what public wants without doing a referendum.

What is a good business idea subjective. You can always take successful businesses of today and think whether you will really support them when their concept was brand new. Without benefit of hindsight, you will miss vast majority of them. (and probably bet on many stupid idea)
 
Index is 33585 Today (14 January) after -48 yesterday (13 January) got +214 points today.....
 
Index is 33585 Today after -48 yesterday got +214 points today.....
Sitc seems to be moving upwards finally. Oil based shares may see weakening again soon with stagnation of prices and further dips expected
 
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